Atb, if any, for missing slam

[Mbodell]

NS vul against not at imps (national Swiss teams), S deals and holds:

 

KQ986 AKQJ T83 9

 

North holds AT4 T9753 K AQJ4

 

The unopposed auction is:

 

1S - 2H(gf, 5+)

3H - 3S

4C(serious cue, because 3nt would have been non-serious)-4D(cue)

4H(ambiguous, no formal lttc agreements) - 4S

All pass

 

Alternatively:

1S - 2H

4C(splinter with heart support) - 4H

All pass

 

Critic either or both auctions. How should it have been bid?

[kenrexford]

IMO, this is yet another example of where bidding 2H as GF when holding 3 card spade support kills the sequence.

 

Consider the sequence after a 2C GF instead (clubs or fit).

 

The obvious next call this time will be 2H by Opener. 2D works even better, but lets deal with the actual.

 

Responder, with cruddy hearts, could set spades as trumps, bidding 2S, if that is your method (mine). Now, cue/pattern style kicks in with a lot of space. My sequence would be 4C next by Opener, showing two top spades, at least three of the top four hearts, a stiff club, and no diamond control. Responder now uses Yummy Toes Asking Bids, bidding 4D to ask what heart honor is missing, finding out thereby that hearts are solid, which ends the auction in slam easily.

 

The problem with this is that we focus the 53 fit rather than the 54. So, suppose, instead, that Responder wants to set hearts as trumps. One reasonable option is a 4D splinter, if you play that as normal. Partner may visualize Ax rather than Axx in spades. So? Who cares?

 

The 2H call is so bad, IMO, because it guarantees a jammed, focus-lacking sequence with a lost round of cues in many instances. I feel so strongly about this that I have considered ditching Jacoby 2NT, which I hate, for a 2NT call as "5H and a fit" as a more pallatable solution for some who find 2C distasteful.

[WesleyC]

I agree with Ken that introducing a weak 5c suit on this hand looks counter productive given that responder never wants to play in a 5/3 heart fit and would prefer that opener hold short hearts! If opener is looking at a 'misfitting' minimum like: [KQJxx x Axxx Kxx], they will takes a conservative view because they expect to opposite wasted heart values. Even without complex agreements, I'd rather start with 2C.

 

However on the actual layout, bidding 2H should work out fine.

 

1S - 2H

4C - 4D (last train).

KeyCard etc.

 

I think north splintering with 4C is important because it suggests 4 card trump support (rather than a single raise which will often be only 3 card support).

Now responder needs to recognize that although they have weak trumps and some wastage in clubs, holding 2 Aces, Spade support and a diamond shortage, slam is definitely still in the picture so they should keep it alive with 4D (last train). [QJxxx AKxx Axx x] or similar gives slam excellent play and if opener has less they can always sign-off in 4H.

[Fluffy]

First one north passed with 5/8 kecards and control of every suit. This is bonkers.

 

On the second one south is clearly not worth a cuebid past 4♥, but collaborating with 4♦ is a different story, he requires 14/18 fitting HCP for slam which is a lot (I splinter from good 12 on). I think 4♥ is correct but close.

 

North should know that with ♥AKQJ it is almost impossible to get collaboration from partner so moving on himself is the correct move. But lack of agreements on minimum requirements for splinter might change the blame allocation.

[Mbodell]

So on the first auction I get South can bid on. But can North too? if you hold the north hand and don't bid on, what do you think partner has to be making a serious slam try bypassing non-serious 3nt?

[bananatree]

There may be better ways to bid it but the 2H is explained as game forcing.

 

Thus 3H must show H and extras otherwise bid 4H or a new suit or NT.

 

Once there then 4C is a cue and then 4H denies a D control. But its hard to have extras with no D control so some missing H honors must be with S.

 

4N ask (you have S control and K- in D) gives a 2+Q answer meaning AKQ in H so 6S is automatic with a single D loser and the knowledge that you have a double fit. OK it is possible to have extras and all the points out of H but its a safe escape to a 5H sign off.

 

All the blame to N for not paying attention to the 3H bid. And there's no need here to get fancy even though a 2C reply is better initially in most cases.

[jodepp]

I'm in full agreement with Mr. Rexford about 2♣ compared to 2♥ as responder's initial call.

 

I might assign a tiny bit of blame to opener with the ambiguous 4♥. If it's 'last train', fine, but if responder can be slamming missing the AKQJ of hearts then responder must have 'the rest of the bases covered'. Opener should just take over at that point rather than the 4♥ 'punt'.

[Mbodell]

I'm in full agreement with Mr. Rexford about 2♣ compared to 2♥ as responder's initial call.

 

I might assign a tiny bit of blame to opener with the ambiguous 4♥. If it's 'last train', fine, but if responder can be slamming missing the AKQJ of hearts then responder must have 'the rest of the bases covered'. Opener should just take over at that point rather than the 4♥ 'punt'.

 

As I've usually played it, responder isn't slamming in this auction at all. Maybe others have different 2/1 and non-serious agreements, but for me responder's 2/1 is normal GF, responder's 3♠ is required with spade support, and over a serious cue responder has no choice but must cue with every hand with a diamond control, since opener might have the strongest hand in history with every missing card in clubs, hearts, and spades, except 2 dead in diamonds. This is one reason why the serious cue shows much more strength than the non-serious 3nt over 3♠. If there had been a non-serious call, then responder would have been consulted, but here responder hasn't been consulted until 4♥. At least how I understand it.

[rmnka447]

So on the first auction I get South can bid on. But can North too? if you hold the north hand and don't bid on, what do you think partner has to be making a serious slam try bypassing non-serious 3nt?

If South doesn't have ♥ honors, then what kind of hand must be held to make a "serious" slam try? Also, I would think that since a double fit has been found that 4 ♥ must be a preference likely 5-4 in the majors. Holding controls in all the outside suits, I'd be very tempted to simply bid 5 ♥ over 4 ♥ asking about trump quality.

[fromageGB]

below

[fromageGB]

In the first auction, in my view the use of the 3♠ bid is wrong. Once a major has been agreed (with 3♥) then I think it should be immutable. Don't introduce a 2/1 suit in which you would not be happy to play, and I would not on this. I prefer spades, so would start with a multi-purpose 2♣.

 

However, if you do start 1♠ 2♥ 3♥, then 3♠ can be non-serious, with 3NT as a spade cue. Hearts are trumps. This lets you get in with all the suits as cues. Certainly, this is a non-serious north hand. Bidding after a 3♠ non-serious depends on cue bidding style, and I like a one-under denial from south with 4♣ showing spades and clubs stops, asking for diamond control. North bids 4♦ and now - with both parties knowing that all suits are "controlled" - 4♥ from opener is not a sign off, but saying his hand is serious (having made a serious cue bid), but not super-serious, ie insufficient to unilaterally ace ask. Sort of a slam try. With a good 2-suited fit and good minor holding, north can ace ask and bid 6♥ hoping from south's seriousness that his spade holding might be sufficient.

 

On the actual bidding, with spades agreed, 4♥ has to be a slam try and 4♠ is wrong, you must either show aces or ask for them.

 

In your alternative second auction, I think opener is too good to splinter. I like to reserve this for weaker hands. If partner splintered I would certainly just bid game.

[Zelandakh]

For me, Opener is too strong to splinter after 2♥ so I am not a big fan of the second sequence. In the second auction, 4♣ seems to be the perfect thing foe Responder to hear after 3♠, so not bidding on past 4♠ is a surprising decision. As to how it should be bid, that perhaps depends on whether 6KCB is in the system bag. If not then it is going to be difficult for North to check on holdings in both major suits in time so a pure cue bidding auction is perhaps preferable. Once Responder commits to the 5 level, it should be simple for Opener to head for slam with these major suits.

[Cyberyeti]

Our auction would be of little use to anybody else as we'd kick off with a non GF 2♥ response so S shows extras with the 4♣ splinter and 4♦ is mandatory over this, now we're bidding the slam in comfort. N's hand is very powerful in fact as all it needs is Axx, 10xxxx, x, Axxx to make the slam more than decent

 

We also have another way to bid it as 1♠-2♥-2N is GF not necessarily balanced for us so

 

1♠-2♥

2N-3♣(cheapest sensible bid)

3♥(sets suit)-3♠(cue)

3N(spade cue)-4♣(cue)

4♥(no ♦ control)

 

Now it's guesswork. Keycard will reveal ♥AKQ, K♠ is known, partner will have at least 3 more points for the 2N bid which aren't A♦, either K♣, Q♠ or Q♦ makes 6 playable and if he has J♠/J♦/J♥ it's on a finesse so I think in practice you bid it.

[nullve]

I blame South for splintering with so much extras. Then I agree with Ken that Responder should start with 2♣ on most GF hands with 3-card support, as it solves so many problems. E.g. you can then play that

 

1M-2R; 3x(x<R)-3M = doubleton support

1♠-2♥; 3♥-3♠ = cuebid, non-serious 3M+1 or whatever, as long as hearts are agreed

 

Using my own methods:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sKQ986hAKQJdT83c9&n=sAT4hT9753dKcAQJ4&d=s&v=0&a=1s(19-30 Bergen points a la Zar Petkov, 5+ S, unbal.)p2c(4-way)p2h(22-24 Bergen points)p2s(relay)p2n(4+ H, not 5S5H / 6+ S, 1-suited)p3c(relay)p3n(5431/5440, hence 13-15 hcp)p4d(major suit slam try)p4h(5431)p4n(KC ask agreeing H)p5c(even number of KC)p5d(trump Q ask)p5n(trump Q + SK, no DK)p6hppp]266|200[/hv]

[Zelandakh]

Using my own methods:

If I understand the methods correctly, South has shown a 5=4=3=1 hand with 13-15hcp and an even number of key cards in hearts. Any reason why that could not be ♠KQJxx ♥QJxx ♦KQJ ♣x?

 

As a further aside, does your system have any way of finding out which major suit queen South holds before committing to a trump suit? Here hearts is better because of the danger of a ruff but in the general case it is often right to play in the suit not missing the queen on double fit hands like this.

[Cyberyeti]

If I understand the methods correctly, South has shown a 5=4=3=1 hand with 13-15hcp and an even number of key cards in hearts. Any reason why that could not be ♠KQJxx ♥QJxx ♦KQJ ♣x?

 

As a further aside, does your system have any way of finding out which major suit queen South holds before committing to a trump suit? Here hearts is better because of the danger of a ruff but in the general case it is often right to play in the suit not missing the queen on double fit hands like this.

 

It can't be the hand you gave because S denied K♦ and N had it, but Kxxxx, AKQJ, Jxx, x is possible and almost no play.

[Zelandakh]

It can't be the hand you gave because S denied K♦ and N had it, but Kxxxx, AKQJ, Jxx, x is possible and almost no play.

♦K was only denied after committing to the slam so I did not see that as a relevant factor.

[Cyberyeti]

♦K was only denied after committing to the slam so I did not see that as a relevant factor.

 

It was denied by the fact that the person doing the asking was looking at it.

[nullve]

If I understand the methods correctly, South has shown a 5=4=3=1 hand with 13-15hcp and an even number of key cards in hearts. Any reason why that could not be ♠KQJxx ♥QJxx ♦KQJ ♣x?

Yes: the ♦K is with Responder this time. But parity responses are sometimes harder to read than standard RKC responses, I'll admit that. The same goes for Turbo bids, of course.

 

As a further aside, does your system have any way of finding out which major suit queen South holds before committing to a trump suit?

I'm afraid not.

 

Kxxxx, AKQJ, Jxx, x is possible and almost no play.

Agree, and I have to shamefully admit that committing the partnership to 6♥ opposite the trump Q + the ♠K, is less clear than I thought.

Edited December 13, 2015 by nullve

[all loomis]

NS vul against not at imps (national Swiss teams), S deals and holds:

 

KQ986 AKQJ T83 9

 

North holds AT4 T9753 K AQJ4

 

The unopposed auction is:

 

1S - 2H(gf, 5+)

3H - 3S

4C(serious cue, because 3nt would have been non-serious)-4D(cue)

4H(ambiguous, no formal lttc agreements) - 4S

All pass

 

Alternatively:

1S - 2H

4C(splinter with heart support) - 4H

All pass

 

Critic either or both auctions. How should it have been bid?

charley goren wd wonder what the problem was: 1s- 3h, 4c-4d, 4n-5h, 6h-p.

[PhilKing]

I think responding 2♥ is a mistake (although it probably should work fine here).

 

I prefer 2♣. If partner bids 2♥, fine, but otherwise, we are intending to play in spades. 2♣ gives us more room and partner will be able to judge the combined potential better if we don't bid ten-high suits.

 

As it happens, it would start 1♠-2♣-2♥-4♦ after which partner would simply wheel out RKCB.

 

Edit - didn't notice that Ken Rexford said much the same.

[gszes]

what more could south want but a gf partner with 5 hearts 3 spades and all of the controls to take control?

 

Seems like 4n is the way to go (4h???) and try to settle in 6h when you are missing a key card (asssuming p will let you missing the AKQJ:) with playing the hand it will be much safer from a dia lead perspective.

[PhantomSac]

Yeah bidding 2H is terrible

[all loomis]

NS vul against not at imps (national Swiss teams), S deals and holds:

 

KQ986 AKQJ T83 9

 

North holds AT4 T9753 K AQJ4

 

The unopposed auction is:

 

1S - 2H(gf, 5+)

3H - 3S

4C(serious cue, because 3nt would have been non-serious)-4D(cue)

4H(ambiguous, no formal lttc agreements) - 4S

All pass

 

Alternatively:

1S - 2H

4C(splinter with heart support) - 4H

All pass

 

Critic either or both auctions. How should it have been bid?

3s should be an ace, eliciting 3n. 4c is an ace then 5h is big trump, go with d control. or, 4h hoping to hear 5d. i like the first, pd needs akq for this to be a good slam. may give up with 5 rags.