It's easy for opener to misrepresent 5-4 minors distribution

[lycier]

Hand-1

[hv=pc=n&e=s6hk65dq987cakj98&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p?]133|200[/hv]

 

Hand-2

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s6hk65dakj9cq9876&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p?]133|200[/hv]

 

Hand-3

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s6hk65dkq98ckq987&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p?]133|200[/hv]

 

It's easy for opener to misrepresent 5-4 minors distribution respectively in ♣ and ♦,how to open?How to plan to rebid?

I think the length is not the only consideration, quality, must also be considered.

 

When hcp in ♣ is more than one in ♦,my opening is 1♣,then plan to rebid 2♣

When hcp in ♣ is less than one in ♦,my opening is 1♦,then plan to rebid 2♣.

When hcp in ♣ is equal to one in ♦,I also open 1♦ and plan to rebid 2♣.

Is my opening approach a good idea?

Any suggestion?

Thank you very much.

 

Lycier

[Cyberyeti]

This has been much discussed and there is not any real agreement. Also if partner bids your short suit and you're in range, rebidding 1N is in the frame and it's normal to raise if he bids your 3 card suit.

[KurtGodel]

I will raise 1♥ to 2♥ with all these hands, over 1♠ I rebid 2♣ with the first, and 1NT with the others.

[barmar]

This is very much a matter of personal style and partnership agreement.

[lycier]

I will raise 1♥ to 2♥ with all these hands, over 1♠ I rebid 2♣ with the first, and 1NT with the others.

Many thanks.

Not everyone like to play 3344 convention after 2♥,I want to know more better solution.

[barmar]

Many thanks.

Not everyone like to play 3344 convention after 2♥,I want to know more better solution.

There's no great solution. Whatever you choose will have flaws.

 

The fact that you have to ask attests to this -- if there were a good solution, everyone would know it.

[hrothgar]

If you switched the heart and the spade suit, I would open 1♦ on the second hand and am debating whether to do it on the third.

I am willing to rebid 2 Clubs on the first

[Vampyr]

Many thanks.

Not everyone like to play 3344 convention after 2♥,I want to know more better solution.

 

What is 3344 convention?

[nullve]

There's no great solution. Whatever you choose will have flaws.

 

The fact that you have to ask attests to this -- if there were a good solution, everyone would know it.

I play T-Walsh and "swapped" 1M responses to 1♦, and my solution is partly to

 

* treat 10-15, 2245 as balanced

* open 1♣ with 3145/4045 but 1♦ with 10-15, 1345/0445

* rebid 1♠ to show 4+ S or 3S1-H over 1♣-1♦(=4+ H)

* rebid 1♠ to show 4+ H or 1-S3H over 1♦-1♥(=4+ S)

Edited November 25, 2015 by nullve

[barmar]

What is 3344 convention?

I think he's talking about the 2NT asking bid after 1m-1M-2M. Opener responds 3♣ or 3♦ to show 3-card support with minimum or maximum, 3♥ or 3♠ to show 4 with minimum or maximum.

[1eyedjack]

If you switched the heart and the spade suit, I would open 1♦ on the second hand and am debating whether to do it on the third.

I am willing to rebid 2 Clubs on the first

I'll bite. Why does switching the majors make a difference?

[lycier]

Too many people are willing to open 1♣ in the vote list.This is to say that the suit length is the only consideration of opening approach,as long as ♣ is longer than ♦,always open 1♣,never 1♦ ,regardless of suit quality,isn't it?

 

I can't accept such opening approach.Now I would take another example :

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s6hk65dakqjc98765&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p?]133|200[/hv]

 

1- Do you insist on opening 1♣ instead of 1♦?

2- What do you want to convey information to your partner?

Even ♣ suit is really 5 cards in which no card is higher than nine,obviously opening 1♣ is meaningless,badly mislead the partner,what else?

And more serious tragedy may occur:

if without interference,you can get final contract,now everything may be good,but if with interference,and opps get final contract,how do your partner know what's the best lead ?

You have to afford the dangerous loss if open 1♣ wrongly.

On the contrary,if open 1♦ even with 4 cards,you always tell your partner correctly where is your quick trick.

So we must consider suit quality while decide to open a minor.

Now,I would appriciate any suggestion.

[lycier]

I think he's talking about the 2NT asking bid after 1m-1M-2M. Opener responds 3♣ or 3♦ to show 3-card support with minimum or maximum, 3♥ or 3♠ to show 4 with minimum or maximum.

 

Yes,yes.

[mike777]

matter of style but pass in 3 cases seems playable as long as partner knows it. It is important that pard knows we could pass with these deals.

 

I see pass was not presented as an option.

[Vampyr]

I think he's talking about the 2NT asking bid after 1m-1M-2M. Opener responds 3♣ or 3♦ to show 3-card support with minimum or maximum, 3♥ or 3♠ to show 4 with minimum or maximum.

 

This seems to use up an awful lot of bids.

[gwnn]

Yes, there are much better schemes available than "3344". For example, bidding under 3M to bid naturally on 3, and at or above 3M on 4. But I'd be OK with not playing any enquiry preparing for a 3-card raise, as long as the 3-card raises were suitable (say, always with a singleton). It wouldn't be great but better than rebidding a 5-card suit when I have 31 in the majors say.

 

edit: Robson-Segal also advocated for "natural, non-focring 3m game tries" in situations like:

1♣-1♠

2♠-3♣

 

where perhaps responder has a 4135 9 count, looking for game only if partner has a 4-card fit (or a great hand for the minor I guess). I haven't played this way but I think it's a nice idea.

Edited November 25, 2015 by gwnn

[KurtGodel]

Now,I would appriciate any suggestion.

Now, if you open 1♦, what are you rebidding over 1♠? If you are bidding clubs, then if partner is xx23, you will play in your 4-2 fit rather than your 5-3 fit. I think having two extra trumps makes up for the fact that you have 100 honours in diamonds and 5 little clubs.

Even if you rebid 1NT, I think it will be very difficult to play a club contract when it's right, whereas if you open 1♣ and you belong in diamonds, then if partner is strong they will probably bid diamonds before their major.

[lorserker]

in my experience (from average play with average players) it doesnt really matter what you open on these types of hands, because partner will decide his bid according to what he thinks is best opposite a typical hand. this kind of hands will rarely be on his radar. even if i acknowledged that these shapes are possible in some sequences, i wouldn't know how to factor this information into my decision making. it has never happened to me that i decided 3NT was good to bid, but because partner can maybe have 2245 i will change my mind.

Maybe the agreements would help more at defence, but the biggest value of a rule is that you have decided what to do and won't have to think about it every single time it comes up.

[helene_t]

in my experience (from average play with average players) it doesnt really matter what you open on these types of hands, because partner will decide his bid according to what he thinks is best opposite a typical hand. this kind of hands will rarely be on his radar. even if i acknowledged that these shapes are possible in some sequences, i wouldn't know how to factor this information into my decision making.

In my experience this is not so. When it starts

1♦-1♠

2♣

and I have an 8-count 5=3=2=3 then I pass if partner systematically can have longer clubs but bid 2♦ if he can't.

[kontoleon]

Too many people are willing to open 1♣ in the vote list.This is to say that the suit length is the only consideration of opening approach,as long as ♣ is longer than ♦,always open 1♣,never 1♦ ,regardless of suit quality,isn't it?

 

I can't accept such opening approach.Now I would take another example :

 

[hv=pc=n&e=s6hk65dakqjc98765&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=p?]133|200[/hv]

 

1- Do you insist on opening 1♣ instead of 1♦?

2- What do you want to convey information to your partner?

Even ♣ suit is really 5 cards in which no card is higher than nine,obviously opening 1♣ is meaningless,badly mislead the partner,what else?

And more serious tragedy may occur:

if without interference,you can get final contract,now everything may be good,but if with interference,and opps get final contract,how do your partner know what's the best lead ?

You have to afford the dangerous loss if open 1♣ wrongly.

On the contrary,if open 1♦ even with 4 cards,you always tell your partner correctly where is your quick trick.

So we must consider suit quality while decide to open a minor.

Now,I would appriciate any suggestion.

heards

On many system (Looks like SAYC) Always open the most lenght, even if is much weaker. Even if is AKQJ10 heards and 234567 Clubs i opened the club).

[lycier]

heards

On many system (Looks like SAYC) Always open the most lenght, even if is much weaker. Even if is AKQJ10 heards and 234567 Clubs i opened the club).

 

Hi :

It is your approach,not for me. Obviously opening 1♠ is far more better than 1♣.

I remembered there is a good expert bidding system in USA,its name is Tallahassee Expert Standard Bridge System,its Author Robert S. Todd said very well that " a important philosophy we follow when faced with bidding challenges are to misrepresent minor suit holdings instead of Major suit holdings.

 

I like Robert S. Todd approach very much,and I will always follow the philosophy of Robert S. Todd.

 

Thank you for your reply.

[lorserker]

In my experience this is not so. When it starts

1♦-1♠

2♣

and I have an 8-count 5=3=2=3 then I pass if partner systematically can have longer clubs but bid 2♦ if he can't.

 

i think that in the case you described above it is not clear whether it is better to pass or to bid 2D because opener could have also longer diamonds, when it is better to bid 2D, or longer clubs, when it is better to pass. we have to guess what to do and maybe one bid has a small edge. this is why i find that which suit is opened has not so much influence because the outcome will be quite random in such cases. the result laregly depends on whether i was lucky to do the right thing, not on whether we had a good agreement.

[1eyedjack]

The 5-2 fit *may* be *slightly* safer than a 4-3 fit. Sometimes it is down to declarer skills not being up to coping with a 4-3 fit. Either way the difference tends to be pretty marginal in the long run (suit quality is important but say that evens out). That should be weighed against the 5-5 and 6-4 possibilities for opener, but more importantly the prospects should opener reckon that he is strong enough to bid again after you have given simple preference, measured against your unilateral decision to close the auction should you give preference by passing.

[Vampyr]

i think that in the case you described above it is not clear whether it is better to pass or to bid 2D because opener could have also longer diamonds, when it is better to bid 2D, or longer clubs, when it is better to pass. we have to guess what to do and maybe one bid has a small edge. this is why i find that which suit is opened has not so much influence because the outcome will be quite random in such cases. the result laregly depends on whether i was lucky to do the right thing, not on whether we had a good agreement.

 

Well. If you open your longer suit partner does not need to guess, and the result will not be "random".

[lorserker]

Well. If you open your longer suit partner does not need to guess, and the result will not be "random".

 

if partner has 5-4 it is never an issue, but if he has 4-5 then partner has a guess already at the opening bid. will he get a bad result because he could not show both minors or will he get a bad result because it is not clear how many diamonds and how many clubs he has.

 

i believe that in a large field with pairs having one or the other agreement in this situation, none of them will have an edge and the result will be determined by other (perhaps random) factors.