Multiple bids to chose from

[jerdonald]

BBO forum,

 

Playing west I held:

S. Q986

H. KT82

D. T9

C. A75

 

 

the bidding went:

N E S W

1C 1D P ?

 

Partner is an over call so I assume diamonds are real and I chose

to bid 1NT showing <10 and a club stopper.

 

 

the bidding should have gone:

N E S W

1C X P ?

 

We jump bid only with 10+ points over a double so I would still

bid 1NT but I could show the 4 card hearts or spades. Partner

then bids 2D showing the "Big Double" with diamonds. What I

bid now depends on whether I first chose to bid 1NT or one of

the majors. I realize 3NT is probably for sure but slam may

be there.

 

Any suggestions.

 

Jerry D.

[mgoetze]

Eh, what's the big rush to bid 1NT with Axx? It's not the kind of stopper with which you absolutely must be declarer - imagine partner with Qx! And you are just making it hard to find a major suit fit. Over 1♦ you should and over double you must bid hearts. If 10+ is your requirement for a jump then I find myself forced to evaluate this hand as 10 points. :P

[Stephen Tu]

Bidding 1nt over 1d is more reasonable than bidding 1nt over double. Over 1♦, the way most people play, 1M advances are supposed to be 5+ suits, the idea being that partner is going to try pretty hard to takeout double rather than overcall 1♦ holding a 4 cd major. So bidding 1♥ risks playing some silly 4-3 major fit when 1nt was better. 1M could work out though if partner is some 4M5♦ construction. It's not the best hand for standard methods.

 

Over double though 1nt is bad, you don't really want to bid NT opposite the expected stiff/small doubleton, partner wants you to bid a major, and you have both of them! The hand is on the border of being good enough to cue, if you play cue promises a rebid you are forcing to the 3 level though, and maybe you don't want that. Might depend how aggressively you double. If you don't cue, I think you pretty much have to bid 1♠. This sets you up to bid hearts later plus NT if partner takes a spade preference after having shown the big diamond hand.

 

Over takeout doubles, if not strong enough to cue, you should NOT bid 4 cd suits up the line. The reason one bids up the line in response to opening minor bids is that partner is expected to bid 1♠ over 1♥, so bidding 1♥ finds you a fit in either major. But over a double, partner is NOT expected to bid 1♠ holding 4♠ (since that shows a hand too strong to overcall), so that advantage goes away. The advantage of bidding 1♠ is mainly if it goes something like p-p-2♣, now you can stick 2♥ in and play 2 of either major. If you had bid 1♥ first, now if it goes p-p-2♣, if you bid 2♠, if partner had hearts all along he has to bid 3♥, and you are a level higher, or he passes 2♠ and you play an inferior 4-3 fit.

[fromageGB]

The right bid depends on whether overcaller is denying a 4 card major if he bids 1♦. Some play double with a 4 card major and 5 diamonds, with the understanding that if you bid a major and it is corrected to 2♦, this does not show a strong hand but shows that he has two suits and you bid the wrong one. If this is the case then 1♦ will deny a 4 card major unless he is strong, in which case it does not matter what you bid. Now 1NT is a reasonable bid.

 

But of course if partner is not denying a 4 card major then you must bid 1♥.

[mgoetze]

The right bid depends on whether overcaller is denying a 4 card major if he bids 1♦. Some play double with a 4 card major and 5 diamonds, with the understanding that if you bid a major and it is corrected to 2♦, this does not show a strong hand but shows that he has two suits and you bid the wrong one.

Eh, sure I would double 1♣ with 3451 shape. That doesn't mean I'm also willing to do it on 1453 shape.

[PhantomSac]

But of course if partner is not denying a 4 card major then you must bid 1♥.

 

I don't see why this must be true. It is perfectly normal to me to bid 1N with a 4 card major, and to overcall 1D with hands that contain a 4 card major, and to sometimes miss a 4-4 major suit fit and play 1N.

[Zelandakh]

First of all, as no one has mentioned the obvious mistake in the OP I will - a 1NT advance to an overcall traditionally shows ~9-12 rather than <10. My choice would be to advance 1♥ in this auction but if choosing 1NT it is important to be aware that the hand represents a minimum rather than a maximum.

 

Over the double you have more options, with 1♠, 1NT and 2♣ (perhaps also 2♠) all being potential candidates depending on agreements. The cue here will probably make for the easiest auction as partner will be well-placed to evaluate whether to bypass 3NT. Most likely you have the same 10+ requirement for that as for a jump though, in which case your system basically only gives you the 1♠ and 1NT options. Either way, I think I am continuing 2♥ and taking it from there but my expectation would be reaching 3NT rather than a slam in the vast majority of cases.

[mcphee]

When partner bids a D over 1C generally they have a decent hand. They could easily hold a 4 card major so to restrict your responses to need a 5 card suit to bid strikes me as a very easy way to blow off a 4/4 major fit. What terrible thing can take place should you bid 1H?

 

Over a take out dble of 1C I would like to bid 2 but will just try 1S and maybe I will get another bid.

[fromageGB]

I don't see why this must be true. It is perfectly normal to me to bid 1N with a 4 card major, and to overcall 1D with hands that contain a 4 card major, and to sometimes miss a 4-4 major suit fit and play 1N.

While I might be happy to miss a 4-4 major fit on a stronger responsive hand, on this one I rate the club stops absolutely lousy, and the points spread conducive to perhaps going considerably negative. This is a pretty poor 1NT in my view, and I would much rather play in a suit.

 

Edit - for "responsive" read "advancive", or perhaps there is a better word ?

Edited November 26, 2015 by fromageGB

[iandayre]

When partner bids a D over 1C generally they have a decent hand. They could easily hold a 4 card major so to restrict your responses to need a 5 card suit to bid strikes me as a very easy way to blow off a 4/4 major fit. What terrible thing can take place should you bid 1H?

 

Over a take out dble of 1C I would like to bid 2 but will just try 1S and maybe I will get another bid.

 

What terrible thing could happen? Partner passes with a minimum to average overcall and a doubleton.

[Cyberyeti]

What terrible thing could happen? Partner passes with a minimum to average overcall and a doubleton.

 

This depends on what you overcall on, for us the non exclusive 1♦ over 1♣ is a hand and 1♥ is forcing.

[nige1]

Holding ♠ Q 9 8 6 ♥ K T 8 2 ♦ T 9 ♣ A 7 5

(1♣) 1♦ (Pass) ??, I rank calls

1. 1♥
2. Pass
3. 1N
4. 1♠

(1♣) Double (Pass) ?? I rank calls

1. 1♥ Underbid/
2. 1♠ Ditto
3. 2♣ An overbid
4. 1N Might wrongside notrump.
5. 2♥ Prefer to hold a 5-card suit
6. 2♠ Ditto

(1♣) Double (Pass) 1N

(Pass) 2♦ (Pass) ?? I rank calls

1. 3♣. Showing enthusiasm
2. 2♥ Hope partner bids again
3. 3♠ Ditto

[iandayre]

Holding ♠ Q 9 8 6 ♥ K T 8 2 ♦ T 9 ♣ A 7 5

(1♣) 1♦ (Pass) ??, I rank calls

1. 1♥
2. Pass
3. 1N
4. 1♠

(1♣) Double (Pass) ?? I rank calls

1. 1♥ Underbid/
2. 1♠ Ditto
3. 2♣ An overbid
4. 1N Might wrongside notrump.
5. 2♥ Prefer to hold a 5-card suit
6. 2♠ Ditto

(1♣) Double (Pass) 1N

(Pass) 2♦ (Pass) ?? I rank calls

1. 3♣. Showing enthusiasm
2. 2♥ Hope partner bids again
3. 3♠ Ditto

 

One question Nigel. In the case where partner doubles, you rate 1H about 1S. This is completely wrong to my way of thinking. If you bid 1H and opener bids 2C passed back around to you, if you now show Spades partner must prefer Hearts at the 3 level. But if you start with Spades, you can bid 2H on the second round and partner has an easy 2 level preference. What do you consider the upside of 1S over 1H?

[helene_t]

Maybe the upside of 1♥ is that you can reverse on your second turn (if partner bids again) so you don't have to jump.

 

But opener is more likely to bid again than partner is, and even if partner bids again it is not the end of the World to have to jump or cue. So I agree that 1♠ (or 2♠) is better.