6430, is 4-4 fit enough?

[gwnn]

lycier, read the opening post again:

Partner could still be balanced,

Maybe you prefer opener to promise an unbalanced hand with 1♠, but Fluffy (in this hand) does not play that way.

[benlessard]

This hand is a good example why i think its poor to play splinter that can be either void /singleton.

 

I much prefer to go slow with the singleton hands and show my hand right aways with the voids. If you get voids hand and dont want to splinter with them than you know youve got a problem.

[rmnka447]

I'm also bidding 2 ♦ here and waiting to hear more. Right now, the hand could end up in game or slam in any of the 3 suits bid. So I want to hear more about partner's hand.

[lycier]

Maybe you prefer opener to promise an unbalanced hand with 1♠, but Fluffy (in this hand) does not play that way.

 

Ok.

If rebid-1♠ don't promise unbalanced hand,or can't imply 4-card with 5+ cards ♦,I think playing XYZ is meaningless.

If don't employ XYZ,of course,2♣ is a best choice.

Thank you very much.

[jogs]

Ok.

If rebid-1♠ don't promise unbalanced hand,or can't imply 4-card with 5+ cards ♦,I think playing XYZ is meaningless.

 

 

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.

Responder may be 4-4 in the majors with a hand which can't bid over 1NT.

 

Let's return to my original hand.

 

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

 

This was to illustrate that when all points are working it doesn't take much for slam.

 

Improve the hand.

 

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ Axxx ♣ xxx

 

Now nearly everyone would open. 1♠ would show where the strength is located and 6♠ is a good contract.

 

Change the hand again.

 

♠ xxxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ KQx

 

You are not required to rebid 1♠ with every 4-card spade suit. Now 1NT would describe this hand better.

We probably belong in 3NT. With weak spades don't suggest a contract in the 4-4 spades.

[mcphee]

Simple is great and the idea that a 3!C leap should be short is sensible, however many play that jumps from responder show 5-5+ GF values, also sensible. I like 4th suit here to hear a helpful rebid and later show S support.

[lycier]

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.

Responder may be 4-4 in the majors with a hand which can't bid over 1NT.

 

Let's return to my original hand.

 

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

 

This was to illustrate that when all points are working it doesn't take much for slam.

 

Improve the hand.

 

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ Axxx ♣ xxx

 

Now nearly everyone would open. 1♠ would show where the strength is located and 6♠ is a good contract.

 

Change the hand again.

 

♠ xxxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ KQx

 

You are not required to rebid 1♠ with every 4-card spade suit. Now 1NT would describe this hand better.

We probably belong in 3NT. With weak spades don't suggest a contract in the 4-4 spades.

 

Hi Jogs :

 

You're confusing 1 level with 2 level. 1♠ promises 4-card diamonds, nothing more. Some partnerships rebid 1♠ with 4=3=3=3.

I am very surprised by what you said,Usually rebid-1♠ imply 4-card ♠ with 5+ cards ♦,of course,unless holding 4441.

But some partnerships rebid-1♠ with 4=3=3=3,that is personal agreement ,usually they don't play walsh as responding principle,don't play XYZ,they play "up the line" and nmf.

 

Let's return to my original hand.

 

♠ KQxx ♥ Kx ♦ QJxx ♣ xxx

 

 

If employ XYZ,generally speaking,it should play walsh with canape style.According to this logic thought,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener usually rebid 1N instead of 1♠,showing the balanced hand because opener has no obligation to look for major fit.

Sorry,I am not expert. If I have a mistake in this hand,would everyone tell me?

Thank you for your reply.

 

Lycier

[jogs]

From Max Hardy's original book Five Card Majors, Western Style(1974) page 12.

 

Hand c) ♠ AQxx ♥ Kxx ♦ Kxxx ♣ Jx

 

Hardy recommends: 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠.

 

Lycier, think you're confusing this auction with 1♣ - 1♦. Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. I still rebid strong 4-card majors whenever there is also a 4-card club suit.

[lycier]

From Max Hardy's original book Five Card Majors, Western Style(1974) page 12.

 

Hand c) ♠ AQxx ♥ Kxx ♦ Kxxx ♣ Jx

 

Hardy recommends: 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠.

 

Lycier, think you're confusing this auction with 1♣ - 1♦. Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. I still rebid strong 4-card majors whenever there is also a 4-card club suit.

 

Why confusing always for me? My approach is just from Max Hardy's original book " Advance bridge bidding for the 21th century (2002)" before dying.I am sure that your approach is a old standard,it ihave been eliminated,out of fashion.

As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,Max Hardy's approach is playing Walsh with Canape style,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener will rebid own second suit with unbalanced hand,if holding balanced hand,opener should rebid 1N instead of suit,this is just normal description.

Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.

If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

[jogs]

 

As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,

 

No, I didn't write opening 1♦ denies a 4-card major.

 

After a 1♣ opening, responding 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak.

 

Those two statements are different.

 

Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.

If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

 

I never read Hardy's last book. I certainly agree there is no obligation to find a 4-4 major fit.

Balance of the hand is just one of the important features. The real key is will the 4-4 major fit

play better than 3NT? It depends where the honor cards are located. Opposite Fluffy's 4=6=3=0 hand

honors in clubs are duplication for a 4-4 spade fit. No club honors means all points are working into

the other three suits. It really improves our chances of making 6♠.

[gnasher]

Am I the only seeing that Fluffy has posted the East hand?

He made a punctuation error as well. It's amazing that anyone understood what he was asking.

[Stephen Tu]

As for you said " Here 1♦ denies a 4-card major when weak. ",I have to say No. Even if weak, opening 1♦ never deny 4-card major,Max Hardy's approach is playing Walsh with Canape style,after 1♦ - 1♥,opener will rebid own second suit with unbalanced hand,if holding balanced hand,opener should rebid 1N instead of suit,this is just normal description.

Please remember that opener has no obligation to look for major fit, The balance of hand is key.

If you don't agree with me,I am willing to go on discussing in futher.

 

Lycier, what to bid after 1♦-1♥ with 4x4x balanced minimum is a style issue. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways. The advantage of bidding 1♠ is you don't miss 4-4 spade fits when responder is 4-4 in the majors or 4-5, and too weak to make a checkback (NMF or xyz or other) bid, around 10- points. The advantages of bidding 1nt are:

- make it easier to find diamond partial if 1♠ promise 5♦ or 4144

- concealment, harder to defend NT contract if declarer does not reveal spade length

- easier to get to 5-2/5-3 heart fit partial since responder can just bid 2♥ over 1nt, but can't over 1♠.

- fewer shapes to disambiguate after 1♦-1♥-1♠-(artificial game force).

 

The situation is different after 1♣-1♦, playing Walsh, because then responder cannot have weak hand and 4 cd major. You can't miss 4-4 major fit opposite a weak responder in that case. The same is not true after 1♣-1♥ or 1♦-1♥. There are no "Walsh" inferences here, you misread Hardy because he is not in the "always rebid 1nt when balanced" camp. He only does that after 1♣-1♦.

 

There are different styles, all have their advocates:

1. Always bid 1♠

2. Always bid 1nt.

3. Bid 1♠ with 4432, but rebid 1nt with 4333

4. Make judgement call based on suit quality/shape/honor placement.

[lycier]

Stephen Tu, you said too well,and did a really good job!

[steve2005]

In this sequence it probably doesn't matter, but being able to bid 2♦ over 2♣ 4SF rather than having to bid over 2♦ could make a lot of difference in terms of space.

The small loss of 2♦ vs 2♣ is made up with savings on INV Hands.

[Cyberyeti]

The small loss of 2♦ vs 2♣ is made up with savings on INV Hands.

 

Only if you play 2♣ GF which I don't

[Fluffy]

PArtner had this:

 

♠Kxxx

♥Kx

♦A9xx

♣Kxx

 

He colaborated after I splintered and we got easilly to slam in spades, but collaborating after splitner is far from clear IMO.

[Cyberyeti]

Is it such a great slam, don't you need 2 3-2 breaks.

[Fluffy]

Is it such a great slam, don't you need 2 3-2 breaks.

 

Only trumps, you can ruff a heart and a diamond in opener's hand.

[nullve]

The small loss of 2♦ vs 2♣ is made up with savings on INV Hands.

Only if you play 2♣ GF which I don't

I disagree. I play 2♣ as GF (well, almost) and 2♦ as multi-invite (With Opener's rebids being P/C except for 2N, which is a GF relay). The latter is very easy to play and doesn't seem to give me any problems on invitational hands. What I lose is the ability to stop in 2♦, but I don't care.

[jogs]

 

 

The situation is different after 1♣-1♦, playing Walsh, because then responder cannot have weak hand and 4 cd major. You can't miss 4-4 major fit opposite a weak responder in that case. The same is not true after 1♣-1♥ or 1♦-1♥. There are no "Walsh" inferences here, you misread Hardy because he is not in the "always rebid 1nt when balanced" camp. He only does that after 1♣-1♦.

 

There are different styles, all have their advocates:

1. Always bid 1♠

2. Always bid 1nt.

3. Bid 1♠ with 4432, but rebid 1nt with 4333

4. Make judgement call based on suit quality/shape/honor placement.

 

I'm in the 4.) camp.

[snillrik13]

A very good way to avoid XYZ problems (almost all) is to play weak NT 12-14. This also has the benefit of terrorizing the opponents.