Stephen Tu Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Imps [hv=pc=n&n=s6hk63d9532caj942&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1sp1n(forcing)p3d(4+D,GF)p?]133|200[/hv] What's your plan? Plausible systemic calls are 3nt/4d/3s, 3s will elicit 4d if partner is 5-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 If 4C is not a cue then I'd bid 4D. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcphee Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Annoying as I do not feel comfortable raising D as much as I would like to. Once I have removed that bid the only 2 left are 3N and 3S. So I will choose the 3S and hope partner repeats D. As this 3D bid could be a 3 card suit I think you need to be careful with your advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Shouldn't 3♥ be a reasonable call? I'd think it could be a cue for diamonds or a punt towards 3nt, if you remove a 3nt over that to 4♣ will you not have cued both controls and shown support for diamonds? I know it may matter how often diamonds are faked here, and how much the 4+♦ is really 4 plus, but this seems a pretty good hand opposite a GF JS. Something like Axxxx Ax AKxx Kx woud be a minimum hand for the auction that would be favored to make 6♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 (edited) I note the comment "will elicit 4♦ if partner is 5-5". That being the case, I assume 3♦ can be shorter [edit - of course it is 4 :yellow boxes!], so I am not enamoured by my diamonds. It sounds as if partner could be semi-balanced. That being the case, with my lack of decent strength I'll go 3NT. I expect partner will continue if shapely. I think this lack of clarity at the 3-level is a system weakness, or the system needs better explanation. Edited November 16, 2015 by fromageGB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 If partner has faked a jump-shift he'll convert 4♦ to 4♠. If his fakery was provoked by heart weakness, 3NT might not be great. I think 3♥ shows five or six hearts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted November 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I also think 3♥ shows heart suit looking for 4♥. In any case, if you bid 4♦, partner bids 4♥.1. Should 4♥ guarantee the ace here, or can it be shortness?2. Now what? How do you get to slam opposite Axxxx Ax AKxx KQ or Axxxx AQx AKQx x but stay out opposite AKQxx AQx AJxx x or AKJxx AQx AQxx x? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve2005 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I note the comment "will elicit 4♦ if partner is 5-5". That being the case, I assume 3♦ can be shorter [edit - of course it is 4 :yellow boxes!], so I am not enamoured by my diamonds. It sounds as if partner could be semi-balanced. That being the case, with my lack of decent strength I'll go 3NT. I expect partner will continue if shapely. I think this lack of clarity at the 3-level is a system weakness, or the system needs better explanation.yes, is weakness in standard American type systems. Unless playing something like Gazzilli a jump shift is ill-defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ggwhiz Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 3nt is wrong on so many levels with so many features for a diamond contract and risks annoying partner to no end. Even at matchpoints if I didn't want diamonds raised on this I wouldn't jump in them. Probably followed by a club cue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 I'm bidding 4 ♦ to start. 3 ♠ would be a preference after which it might be impossible to get partner not to play a ♠ contract. If partner bids 4 ♥, which should be a control and a slam try, I'm bidding 5 ♣ to show the ♣ control. If partner has ♥ shortness, then logically there must ♣ in partner's hand and possession of the ♣ A will be an important thing for partner to know. Even if partner has bid with the ♥ A, you might infer that partner may need a ♣ control to bid slam. The other thing a 5 ♣ bid says is that you have a good hand for partner for a ♦ slam. If partner can't bid it over 5 ♣, so be it -- you've tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Tu Posted November 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 The other thing a 5 ♣ bid says is that you have a good hand for partner for a ♦ slam. If partner can't bid it over 5 ♣, so be it -- you've tried. The question in my mind is whether 5♣ should show better than this. For example look at the latter two hands I posted in my previous post, with AQxx trumps, AJxx trumps. Could you really blame partner for jumping to slam with these kind of things playing you for better/longer trumps for raising & bidding 5♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 3nt is wrong on so many levels with so many features for a diamond contract and risks annoying partner to no end. Even at matchpoints if I didn't want diamonds raised on this I wouldn't jump in them. Probably followed by a club cue.Yes. If she is going to be annoyed, it will be because she created the 3♦ bid with just a long spade suit -- and if she now bids 4♠ over my diamond raise, we will play it there. I would expect her to bid 4♥ over my diamond raise pretty much every time she really had diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 The question in my mind is whether 5♣ should show better than this. For example look at the latter two hands I posted in my previous post, with AQxx trumps, AJxx trumps. Could you really blame partner for jumping to slam with these kind of things playing you for better/longer trumps for raising & bidding 5♣?Well, it's a horrible auction. The 1NT response has an uncomfortably wide range of strengths and shapes; the 3♦ bid consumes loads of space and also has a wide range of shapes; the 4♦ bid (instead of 4♣) takes away partner's temporising/non-serious 4♦ bid. With all of that, we're lucky to have found the right trump suit, never mind the level. (Actually, we may not even have done that. AKQxx x AJxx KQx ?) Maybe the answer is that after 3♦ 4♥ is a cue-bid with a very suitable hand, like xx Kxx Kxxx Axxx, and 4♦ is less good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. All my stuff is in off suits and my hK is suspect. My stiff spade is dubious with shaky trump. I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. All my stuff is in off suits and my hK is suspect. My stiff spade is dubious with shaky trump. I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s.Can we agree and still hate you? I think we have all grazed in this same meadow with a couple of threads in 2014. If I bid 4d then, the posters figured out the construction where I had just passed the last makeable contract. But, if I bid 3nt, for sure it will make 1nt or six diamonds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Don't hate me but I'd bid 3N. My hand just isnt that good. [...] I'd expect partner to move with a full jump shift and 55 or extras and 5143 or 5341 or 5440s.Why? Can't see him moving with 54 shapes, and hardly ever with 55. If I want him to move on with these shapes, I would have bid 3S. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Why? Can't see him moving with 54 shapes, and hardly ever with 55. If I want him to move on with these shapes, I would have bid 3S. He might advance with 5341 but I'd really hope he'd advance with 5143 since I can hold a lot of clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 He might advance with 5341 but I'd really hope he'd advance with 5143 since I can hold a lot of clubs. So a jumpshift is basically forcing past 3N opposite the worst possible bid for the jumpshifter unless theyre 5422? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I also think 3♥ shows heart suit looking for 4♥. In any case, if you bid 4♦, partner bids 4♥.1. Should 4♥ guarantee the ace here, or can it be shortness?2. Now what? How do you get to slam opposite Axxxx Ax AKxx KQ or Axxxx AQx AKQx x but stay out opposite AKQxx AQx AJxx x or AKJxx AQx AQxx x? Axxxx of spades is the complete nuts holding for this auction, and opener will know it (especially with a primed out 20 count?). Hand 1 is far stronger contextually than all of the other hands, it's not even close. That is not to say that having 4 low trumps will never create issues, obviously it can and will sometimes, but you are really underestimating having Axxxx on this auction. It is similar to having AKQJ of trumps. It would be amazing. I mean hand 1 is a very good slam opposite x xxx xxxxx Axxx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 So a jumpshift is basically forcing past 3N opposite the worst possible bid for the jumpshifter unless theyre 5422? Forcing seems like an overbid but certainly partner appreciates the value of a 3rd club or 5th diamond? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbla Posted December 6, 2015 Report Share Posted December 6, 2015 If you trust partner to be trying to tell you he thinks 3NT may well not be the best contract, then bidding 3NT seems obviously wrong. At the same time, getting beyond 3NT is a little scary on such a weak hand. This seems to me an example of the general theoretical problem that one of the most common statements you want to make is that you have support for partner's suit, but that this is the most expensive (in bidding space) statement that you can make as a natural bid. It seems to me that a reasonable general solution to this problem is to exchange the meanings of the cheapest unbid suit and the raise in game-forcing situations like this. Having 1♠-1NT-3♦-3♥ show support for diamonds, 1♠-1NT-3♦-3♠ show tolerance for spades, and 1♠-1NT-3♦-3NT deny either would seem to cover the most likely situations. Note that the only time the 'raise' goes beyond 3NT is when you are raising a major - and then you don't mind! This works even better if you use PRO responses instead of 2/1 (i.e. reversing the meanings of 1♠-1NT-2♦-2♥ and 1♠-2♥ - similar to negative free bids). This way, 1♠-1NT-3♦-4♣ and 1♠-1NT-3♦-4♦ show 12+pts and a long unbid suit opposite 18+, so bypassing 3NT is not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kontoleon Posted December 7, 2015 Report Share Posted December 7, 2015 if this bet is looks like the standar robot system( 18-21 Hcp and 4+D ) is mean game forcing With no 8 card fit major, (you need 4H from go 3H) i am going from 3nt? Hmm but here we have sineton s But again this hand is loks like far away from slam. Total 26 Hcp points if the partener have minumum but if we can count 3 point from short hand is looks like Slam try? Pff is really close... ok final anwser 3nt and hope frm the best. in fact s and D have already beat dy partener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Imps [hv=pc=n&n=s6hk63d9532caj942&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1sp1n(forcing)p3d(4+D,GF)p?]133|200[/hv] What's your plan? Plausible systemic calls are 3nt/4d/3s, 3s will elicit 4d if partner is 5-5. My plan is I would bid 3nt at first, if opener rebid 4♦ showing 5-5 with slammish, I would bid 4♥ as redwood to ask RKCB of ♦ trumph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
all loomis Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Imps [hv=pc=n&n=s6hk63d9532caj942&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=1sp1n(forcing)p3d(4+D,GF)p?]133|200[/hv] What's your plan? Plausible systemic calls are 3nt/4d/3s, 3s will elicit 4d if partner is 5-5.3h shd be a nt probe, asking for some help. it also allows pd to show a 64 or 55, or 2 c's. [2c is 5cd suit in civilized systems.] then bid 4d. but i train my partners to be 55, so raise immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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