jallerton Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Matchpoints, the opponents are vulnerable, your side is not.[hv=pc=n&w=shkt74dj9842ckj95&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p2spp]133|200[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Not reopening with a double here is a crime! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apollo1201 Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 X as I live a dangerous life. I hope those two K will be enough when it gets passed out (they probably sit after dummy's honors) but I'd like a small spade to fire back through declarer (red the suit should be decent-ish though). Or maybe dummy with 12HCP and a small doubleton S will bid 3S over partner's suit and I'll have done the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRBanger Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Partner may think that double is criminal when he sees my hand. He has 4-5 spades, but how good are they? He chose not to overcall, so I hang him out to dry? I'll double at MP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Not reopening with a double here is a crime! Must be a ruling. I don't care if my partner tanked for 2 hours and said "I have a problem out loud", I would reopen X lol. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 It's MPs. We're white vs red. Absolutely yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 Must be a ruling. I don't care if my partner tanked for 2 hours and said "I have a problem out loud", I would reopen X lol.You need to be more assertive in your posts, so we don't have any doubts about how you feel. My partner's tempo will not be a problem, here; in a decent game, the double does seem clear. However, at the club my RHO will have told me if it is right to pass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted November 15, 2015 Report Share Posted November 15, 2015 You need to be more assertive in your posts, so we don't have any doubts about how you feel. My partner's tempo will not be a problem, here; in a decent game, the double does seem clear. However, at the club my RHO will have told me if it is right to pass. At some clubs your CHO will tell you if it is right to pass, unfortunately. Oh and I voted to balance with an X and think it clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Although I double, I do so a little reluctantly, certainly with far less enthusiasm than others. I think we may be in a no-fit situation here, with the points evenly balanced, and we may struggle in a phantom sacrifice. Maybe poster #5 has had plenty of experience of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Must be a ruling. I don't care if my partner tanked for 2 hours and said "I have a problem out loud", I would reopen X lol.Given this was posted in the I/A forum, I would think we can't count you as a peer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Double for me also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 16, 2015 Report Share Posted November 16, 2015 Given this was posted in the I/A forum, I would think we can't count you as a peer...The people polled about whether a person of a certain level with similar information and agreements would have considered a certain action do not have to actually be peers of that person. In fact, asking peers of an inexperienced player what they would do often results in garbage- out because they don't really understand the situation as explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 The people polled about whether a person of a certain level with similar information and agreements would have considered a certain action do not have to actually be peers of that person. I think there's a difference between 'polling' and 'asking for a second opinion'. Seeking guidance from an experienced player/director about the strength of the player in question and if the situation warrants further investigation is OK. However, giving an experienced player the problem in isolation and then using that as as a 'vote' in your poll would not be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 However, giving an experienced player the problem in isolation and then using that as as a 'vote' in your poll would not be fine.No, when establishing logical alternatives, we give the experienced player the information he needs: the methods in use, the experience level of the player involved, the auction, the colors, the form of scoring...hardly in "isolation", and quite fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 No, when establishing logical alternatives, we give the experienced player the information he needs: the methods in use, the experience level of the player involved, the auction, the colors, the form of scoring...hardly in "isolation", and quite fine. Obviously practical considerations often necessitate cutting a few corners, but using this as your default plan seems misguided. I've seen some bizarre bids allowed based on a unanimous polling of players at a different level to myself (in both directions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Given this was posted in the I/A forum, I would think we can't count you as a peer... True but it was posted on a discussion forum. It has never been the case that only I/A opinions were welcome on I/A, and novice opinions on novice etc. If it is being used for a ruling or something I'm sure jallerton will not count my opinion. I just think it must be for jallerton to be posing it since I think it is such an obvious double. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickRW Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well, if it is a peer opinion that is really what is being asked for, then I'm closer to being in the right category - and I think I couldn't resist an X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lycier Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Pass is my choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 x This would be a much closer problem if we were unpassed. Our passed hand status means p will realize our lack of general overall value wen deciding to leave the x in for penalty. Our distribution is fine and p will almost always make an accurate decision to defend or bid. Lots of potential reward (MP not necessarily numbers) not a huge amount of risk makes x a superb MP call. A closer decision at IMPS where there is not a monster amount of upside since setting the contract 1 is no big deal at imps while huge at MP) I would pass at imps since the occasional opps making is pretty darn huge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nige1 Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 [hv=pc=n&w=shkt74dj9842ckj95&d=w&v=n&b=12&a=p2spp]133|200|jallerton says "Matchpoints, the opponents are vulnerable, your side is not". I rank1. Double. Less dangerous, after your initial pass, but if partner passes for penalties, the ♠void might be a liability.2. Pass. Likely to be a common action, in spite of the BBO consensus. 3. 2N. This might avoid 2♠X+1 :)4. 3♦. Unilateral and a poor suit. [/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 X, although I would open a queen better than this, maybe less dangerous if you open reasonably light as partner will play you for less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jallerton Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Must be a ruling. Correct, but it is not a live ruling. I am reviewing some old appeals for the next EBU Appeals Booklet. Given this was posted in the I/A forum, I would think we can't count you as a peer... Yes, this is why I posted the hand in the I/A forum, although Justin's views are always worth reading. Double was selected at the table after a slow pass from partner. Partner's hand was AJ109x none AKQxx Axx. She passed the reopening double and then doubled the escape to 3♥ for penalties (an interesting choice on a void when 6♦ looks like it might be making). The TD ruled that Pass was a logical alternative and adjusted the table result [3♥x-2] to 2♠ undoubled -4, but the AC over-ruled the TD and restored the table result. If the respondents to this poll are peers of the player, then it seems as though the TD was right (currently, slightly over 20% have selected Pass and some of the doublers seem to have seriously considered it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil_20686 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 The TD ruled that Pass was a logical alternative and adjusted the table result [3♥x-2] to 2♠ undoubled -4, but the AC over-ruled the TD and restored the table result. If the respondents to this poll are peers of the player, then it seems as though the TD was right (cuurently, slightly over 20% have selected Pass and some of the doublers seem to have seriously considered it). Generally in this situation the better the player the more aggressively they will protect, so the weaker you think the player is the more you should pass. The caveat is that with players below a certain level of experience the hesitation should not be considered to show anything in particular really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesleyC Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Interesting ruling. One issue I have is that the wording of what constitutes a 'logical alternative' is fundamentally unfavorable to less experienced players. While a panel of top experts might *sometimes* agree unilaterally about the correct action, a panel of intermediate players hardly ever will. By definition the intermediate players all have gaps in their bridge understanding, and these gaps will appear in different areas. They will also be more prone to straight up blunders. As a result the intermediate poll is always going to generate more logical alternatives. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jallerton Posted November 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Interesting ruling. One issue I have is that the wording of what constitutes a 'logical alternative' is fundamentally unfavorable to less experienced players. While a panel of top experts might *sometimes* agree unilaterally about the correct action, a panel of intermediate players hardly ever will. By definition the intermediate players all have gaps in their bridge understanding, and these gaps will appear in different areas. They will also be more prone to straight up blunders. As a result the intermediate poll is always going to generate more logical alternatives. Maybe, but if intermediate players are not consistent with what call they might make on a particular hand, then they might (even if only subconsciously) be influenced by any UI from partner. Another reason why experts might gain in this type of situation is that their partners are more likely to be experts, who know to try to avoid pausing for longer than the normal stop period in positions where partner may come under ethical pressure. But experts don't always have it their own way. Sometimes, there will be one obvious action which I'd expect most bridge players to choose; it would be the only logical alternative for an intermediate player. But an expert could think of an extra possibility, maybe a bid which can't logically be natural in the context of what (s)he believes the auction to mean. Now suppose that the expert has UI from an unexpected alert/explanation. Now the expert may be ethically obliged to make the "can't logically be natural" bid which is less likely to clear up the misunderstanding (s)he has discovered through UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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