Q on "Truscott 2D" Full relay scheme over 1NT

[Chamaco]

Hi all,

I am reading the fine book "Bidding on Target" by Rosenkranz/Truscott.

 

I have read with interest the chapter on "Truscott 2D" relay over 1NT, basically one form of Forcing Stayman with subsequent relays.

 

I won't enter all the details, but I'd like help in order to better grasp the logic , especially in slam bidding.

 

As far as I understood, responder inquiries in order:

 

1- shape

2- if shape is resolved leaving room below 3NT, then next step asks whether opener is minimum or maximum

3- subsequent relay (or direct relay past 3NT, skipping the minimax ask) asks for controls;

SO FAR, THINGS LOOK RELATIVELY CLEAR TO ME, BUT NEXT STEPS ARE LESS CLEAR

 

4- SLAM BIDDING

After steps 1-3 have been performed, responder may have slam prospects.

Next step is a relay EVEN if it is a 4M bid.

It asks opener to show the honors location.

The scheme used is Denial Cues, using the following logic for the spiral scan:

....a. the order of suit is

.........a1 longer suit first

.........a2 equal length suits are scanned in rank order (higher rank 1st)

.........example: 3-3-5-2 are scanned as: Diamonnds, Spades, Hearts, Clubs.

....b. opener responds to the relay bidding according to criterion "a" the first suit where he misses honors (OR, rare, where he holds AKQ), so, for instance, bidding the first step would deny a honor or show AKQ in the longest suit, bidding 2nd step would do the same for the 2nd longest suit, etc.

 

HERE IS THE QUESTION

I suppose now next step by responder is another inquiry.

What should opener bid now ?

E.g. would 1st step mean longest suit again ? OR

would 1st step be the 1st suit After after the longst suit ?

 

E.g.

Assume I have opened a weak NT with

Axx-Kxx-Qxxxx-Ax

After a series of relay, my pard has managed to know my shape and controls.

Now, say responder bids 4H relay to start the spiral scan.

I respond 4S = no AK in longest suit (diamonds).

Now, responder bids 4NT relay.

And here is my doubt:

what would my first step mean ? Would it be diamonds again (thereby controls in all other suits)? Or would it be spades (the suit coming immediately after diamonds, according to the ranking scheme given above) ?

 

ANOTHER Q:

I am puzzled by the fact that responder's first step is ALWAYS a relay.

Is it true at all levels?

So it would never be possible to signoff in first step suit if always a relay?

 

Thanks !

[Free]

Normally, you keep 'scanning' until you think you have enough information. I'm used to play this method with my f2f partner and in MOSCITO. Here's how it goes:

 

next step = always relay (6♠ is the highest relay, higher bids are to play)

any other bid = to play

(so yes, next step is always relay whenever it's lower than 6NT, so you have to take that into account sometimes)

 

Whenever a new relay is bid, you continue where you stopped. In your example with the 3-3-5-2, if you show 1/2 tophonours in ♦ and 0/3 in ♠, then your next responses to the relay will be to show tophonours in ♥, in ♣, and back again to ♦s,...

If you have to clarify your holding for a second time, then you skip the suit if you have 2 top honours, or you bid the step with only 1. If you showed 0/3 tophonours, then you show the J by skipping it, or deny the J by bidding the step. After showing/denying the J, the suit is removed from the scan-order. A 3rd scan (if you showed 1/2 tophonours, and specified the exact amount) is also used to show the J.

 

Example:

[hv=s=sajxhkqxdaxxxxcjx]133|100|[/hv]

And the denial cues start with 3♠:

4♥* - 4♠ (1/2 tophonours in ♦, ♠ and ♥, 0 tophonours ♣)

4NT* - 5♣ (exactly 1 tophonour ♦)

5♦* - 5♥ (exactly 1 tophonour ♠)

6♣* - 6♦ (exactly 2 tophonours ♥, ♣J, denies ♦J)

6♠* - ... (♠J, but no ♥J)

So you know:

HJx

HHx

Hxxxx

Jx

 

This example was for AKQ controls. However, AK controls with spiral scan works a little different (but still very similar), but I don't have any experience with that. It seems like several suits are excluded much faster from the scan-list.

 

Remark: a little improvement is to change the scan order for equal length suits to ♥>♠>♣>♦ instead of simple high to low. It's the same order like game contracts (4M, 5m), and you give all suits the same room, where now you disadvantage the ♥ and ♣ suits, and you give advantage to ♠ and ♦.

[Chamaco]

Ty Frederic :D

 

One more q:

when you "deny" a honor in a suit, how do you show later that you actually held AKQ ?

[MickyB]

Partner will be able to tell 99%+ of the time - if he has A, K or Q in his hand then he knows it is zero, if he doesn't he will usually be able to tell from knowing partner's overall strength There is a story on these forums that partner had shown 0 or 3 twice, and it was obviously AKQ in one and xxx in the other. Relayer had xxx in one, and void in the other, and was on a complete guess - until an opp ventured a lead directing double!

[Free]

Ty Frederic  :D

 

One more q:

when you "deny" a honor in a suit, how do you show later that you actually held AKQ ?

You don't say, we asume that relayer knows. Else you're looking for a tight slam, with the wrong methods.

 

O, and I forgot 1 thing: 3NT is NEVER a relay!

[luke warm]

this is part of my 1nt structure, has been for some time.. one thing you left out (or i missed), doubletons are scanned only once... i disagree with free on his last post, the 4M vs. 5m thing... for consistencies sake, keep it as truscott created it... if you change anything, change the meaning of 'top honor' but not the way they are shown

 

to answer your 2nd question, by the 2nd (and surely by the 3rd) scan you'll know whether opener has 0 or all 3 tops in a suit... don't forget, you already know how many controls he has.. if you want to practice scanning when i'm online, let me know

[Free]

i disagree with free on his last post, the 4M vs. 5m thing... for consistencies sake, keep it as truscott created it...

It's no matter of agreeing or not, it's just a fact that technicly, ♥>♠>♣>♦ is a better order than ♠>♥>♦>♣ (like reversing the meanings of the Major suit bids after that 2♦ thingy). However, these things might make it a little more complicated. I don't have any problems with complicated stuff, but I can understand some people like to keep it as simple as possible. But then I just wonder why play relays? :D

[Chamaco]

Thanks all so far!! :D

 

3RD QUESTION THEN FOR YOU RELAY-ADDICTS ! :D

 

In your respective parterships, how do you define "top honors" ?

Basically, what is your approach for finding Queens ?

Or, if ANY Queen is considered a top honor, how do you discriminate ?

 

In Rosenkranz/Truscott's it is suggested the following simplification:

consider the Q as "top" honor for the 2 first suits (the longest and, if equal length, the highest ranked- the second criterion may as well be substituted by Free's suggestion, e.g. ♥♠♣♦).

 

 

Now, using this criterion, suppose that the 1st two suits are ♠+♣, but the relayer wants to bid a small slam solely based on the ♥ Queen (of trumps).

 

He cannot know this on the first relay, so he might lose useful bidding space ?

[hrothgar]

Now, using this criterion, suppose that the 1st two suits are ♠+♣, but the relayer wants to bid a small slam solely based on the ♥ Queen (of trumps).

 

He cannot know this on the first relay, so he might lose useful bidding space ?

Assume for the moment that relay responder just bid 3D, revealing that his shape is 5=4=3=1.

 

At this point in time, the relay asker has a number of different bids available to him

 

3H = Asks for slam points and starts denial cue bidding

3S = RKCB in RR's longest suit (in this case spades)

3N = To play unless RR has base +3 slam points

4C = RKCB in RR's second longest suit (in this case Hearts)

4D = Bid 4H unless RR has base +3 slam points

4H = RKCB in RR's third longest suit (in this case Diamonds)

4S = RKCB in RR's shortest suit

 

If all you care about is the Queen of trump then set that suit as trump and use RKCB...

For what its worth, my MOSCITO notes have a decent write up regarding auciton termination.

[Chamaco]

If all you care about is the Queen of trump then set that suit as trump and use RKCB...

For what its worth, my MOSCITO notes have a decent write up regarding auciton termination.

Ty Richard.

Are your Moscito Notes available online ?

[hrothgar]

If all you care about is the Queen of trump then set that suit as trump and use RKCB...

For what its worth, my MOSCITO notes have a decent write up regarding auciton termination.

Ty Richard.

Are your Moscito Notes available online ?

send me a message with your email address and I'll send a copy...

As always, this is a work in progress and riddled with typos, however, the auction termination chapter is reasonably solid...

[Chamaco]

send me a message with your email address and I'll send a copy...

As always, this is a work in progress and riddled with typos, however, the auction termination chapter is reasonably solid...

Thanks again.

No problem to give my email address here:

 

m_casadei67REMOVE_RED_TEXT@REMOVE_RED_TEXTtin.REMOVEit

[luke warm]

Now, using this criterion, suppose that the 1st two suits are ♠+♣, but the relayer wants to bid a small slam solely based on the ♥ Queen (of trumps).

 

He cannot know this on the first relay, so he might lose useful bidding space ?

i haven't noticed it... the weakest (imo) part of the structure is, you have to continue relaying "in order"... for example, in richard's post the 3H bid (after 3D shows your distribution) is asking for min/max.. now then, i play that you 'zoom' if more than min *and* 4+ controls (i use 2, 3 controls as minimum for mini/weak nt)... so after 3H (min/max ask), 3S shows min hand, 3nt shows max with 4 controls, 4C max with 5, etc

 

as far as asking for a specific queen, it isn't as hard as you think... i use rosenkrantz/truscott suggestion of using the A & K as top honors for 1st two suits and A, K, & Q in last 2.... it might be better if you posted an example hand

 

free and i have talked over this many times, his main concern has always been wrong siding the contract... the solution is very easy to incorporate, i just haven't seen the need... all in all this is a good method