Leading against control asking game tries

[akwoo]

A pair at the local club plays game tries that ask partner to bid game if and only if partner has the Ace or King of the suit bid.

 

Partner can counter-try by bidding an intermediate suit, which also asks for a game bid under the same circumstances. Another counter-try is possible.

 

These tries can be used to get information about possible slams. The bidder does not deny the other control in the suit.

 

The re-raise is a natural non-informative general game try.

 

For example:

 

1H - 2H

3C(1) - 3D(2)

4H(3)

 

would mean

 

(1) asks partner to bid 4H with Ace or King of clubs.

(2) denies the A/K of clubs and asks partner to bid 4H with A/K of diamonds

(3) promises the A/K of diamonds. (Presumably, if opener bid 3C with slam finding intentions, opener has a cue bid or 3N available.)

 

Question: What kind of hand should be making these tries? In particular, should I in general lead the try suit or avoid leading it? Does it matter if the try is directly accepted or not?

[steve2005]

I think I would lead a ♣ but your actual holding is probably more important. A hand would be useful.

[ayebee]

My partner and play something similar - a trial bid such as 3c in the sequence you give shows a weak 4 card suit say Q1043 and asks for help in avoiding losers in that suit. I would expect partner to raise to game or show additional controls with for example KJx or Ax or a singleton i.e 1 loser in the suit, sign off in 3H/S with 3 small and with Axx or Kxx consider the overall hand.

 

After this sequence I don't think it is a good idea to lead the suit on the opening lead. It seems likely that a "poison suit" layout exists where whichever side opens up the suit will concede an extra trick.

If responder has raised to game then if you think he is likely to have a shortage then a trump lead is indicated to reduce dummy's ruffs.

 

Our system is slightly different in that we would play 3D in that sequence as confirming help in clubs plus a control in diamonds

[Zelandakh]

In my view they are taking a good idea (denial cues/asking bids) and using it poorly. I also think they have some disclosure issues. As an example, say that Opener had bid 3♣ with a slam hand without a club control. After Responder bids 3♦, would they not now sign off in 4♥ with any hand regardless of the diamond position? In any case, it makes leading the suit declarer denied a control in more appealing and the suit (s)he showed one slightly less so....or as any LOL will tell you: "Lead through strength and up to weakness!" ;)

[akwoo]

1) I'm pretty sure they haven't thought through all the issues (including the disclosure issues) completely.

 

2) Note that asking in a suit does not deny controls in that suit. Asker could easily have ace/king in that suit and be wanting to know if partner has the other. Or asker could have both and just be seeing if he or she gets a counter-try from partner. (But I don't know if it actually makes sense to use these tries in that manner when you have tries in the other suits (or a general strength try) available. They are a competent pair, so making inferences from their actions is not futile.)

 

3) I guess one thing I'm asking is if this really is similar to ayebee's tries or not. Those I know how to deal with. (Tend to lead the suit with xx - not so bad with xxx - but avoid with Hx(xx), especially if accepted.)