Referee needed for off the rails bidding

[Corral_2]

[hv=pc=n&s=sj6haj982dqjt6ct4&w=s43hq73d32ckqj765&n=skt97h54d8754ca82&e=saq852hkt6dak9c93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s2h2sp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

ALL VUL

 

E/W play NT 15-17, and also play puppet over 1 & 2 NT, so often open NT with 5 card major, and play Bergen raises by passed hand and over overcalls so 3 clubs was not an option. Result 4S-2. Was 2s wrong? Should pd expect 3 card support? Was 4S called for?

[wank]

sometimes when you have values you need to invent a bid to avoid the risk of missing game. raising to 2S would be inventing a bid. it's almost always 3 cards. anyway, this is not one those occasions where creativity is required. west has a very good club suit he can bid as a passed hand, or perhaps not if you play bergen as a passed hand and over interference, but that would be a rather unusual and poor thing to do.

 

east just misevaluateded his hand. a balanced 16 count with the king of hearts under the bid and 3 cards in the opp's suit opposite a simple raise in competition is a game try at best. personally, i would take a pessimistic view and ask for the dummy. if you can't evaluate hands like this, make your life easier and open 1NT.

[johnu]

West 75% - East 75%

[steve2005]

sometimes when you have values you need to invent a bid to avoid the risk of missing game. raising to 2S would be inventing a bid. it's almost always 3 cards. anyway

If I "invent" a 2♠ on just 2 I'll have a honor to give partner some chance if they take a chance with only 5.

[WesleyC]

If E/W play a style where 15-17 hands with a 5cM open 1NT then it looks automatic for East to open 1NT on this hand.

 

West's 2S bid is definitely misguided because 3C is a much better description and even carries an implication of spade tolerance.

 

On East's second turn, holding a balanced hand with a defensive holding in hearts it looks clear to explore for 3NT.

 

And finally South gets some blame for their 2 level overcall on a bad 5c suit and a flat hand opposite a passed partner.

[akwoo]

1) I do think 3♣ by West would be an overbid even as a passed hand, but I'm happy to agree differently with partner. I would pass, but don't fault the 2♠ invention. I admit that agreements saying West should pass here do put a lot of pressure back on East if it comes back to him in balancing seat.

 

2) 4♠ is just batsh*t crazy considering partner could be as light as ♠Kxx ♥x ♦xxxx ♣xxxxx

[helene_t]

W's initial pass is normal although I would be ok with 3♣ also.

 

1♠ is a misbid if you systematically open 1nt with a 5-card major. There is no reason to make an exception for this hand.

 

2♥ is terrible and by far the worst bid in the auction. But it worked so who am I to object.

 

2♠ is not my cup of tea, I think 3♣ is much better.

 

4♠ is a huge overbid. 2nt or 3♠ is plenty.

[fourdad]

First error is not Bidding 1NT. The rest is effect of that error.

[Corral_2]

W's initial pass is normal although I would be ok with 3♣ also.

 

1♠ is a misbid if you systematically open 1nt with a 5-card major. There is no reason to make an exception for this hand.

 

2♥ is terrible and by far the worst bid in the auction. But it worked so who am I to object.

 

2♠ is not my cup of tea, I think 3♣ is much better.

 

4♠ is a huge overbid. 2nt or 3♠ is plenty.

 

 

2♠ is not my cup of tea, I think 3♣ is much better (Cant - they play Bergen by passed hand __)

[helene_t]

3♣ is not Bergen. Bergen does not apply after interference.

[Corral_2]

3♣ is not Bergen. Bergen does not apply after interference.

 

Bergen on with interference, off over double

[helene_t]

Well you need a way to show clubs. If 3♣ is artificial and it is not your style to open 3♣ with this hand, then you must include this hand in the negative double which has some consequences for how opener responds to double.

 

Anyway, you don't need both 3♣ and 3♦ as Bergen since 3♥ is also available. So maybe 3♦ and 3♥ should be the raises (a hand with a natural 3♦ bid now would have opened 2♦).

[GrahamJson]

A curious auction in which every bid is wrong.

[P_Marlowe]

W's initial pass is normal although I would be ok with 3♣ also.

 

1♠ is a misbid if you systematically open 1nt with a 5-card major. There is no reason to make an exception for this hand.

 

2♥ is terrible and by far the worst bid in the auction. But it worked so who am I to object.

 

2♠ is not my cup of tea, I think 3♣ is much better.

 

4♠ is a huge overbid. 2nt or 3♠ is plenty.

Missing in the list is the final pass by North, North should double for blood.

[Caitlynne]

The 2S raise was inadvisable since it promises 3 card support and there is nothing about the hand pattern or the nature of the 2 card spade tolerance that is noteworthy or suggestive that the partnership truly belongs in spades. A negative/card showing Double or Pass would be fine.

 

I prefer the Double because, if your and LHO both Pass and partner reopens with a Double, 3C does not do justice to the hand (unless you play Good/Bad 2NT here) and either 2NT or 4C seem speculative.

 

Regardless, 4S clearly was an overbid. A game try is reasonable and, to that end, a natural 2NT seems about right.

[kenrexford]

A curious auction in which every bid is wrong.

 

You know? South's 2♥ is wrong, and West's initial pass is even dubious (3♣ opening seems plausible to me).

[ggwhiz]

[hv=pc=n&s=sj6haj982dqjt6ct4&w=s43hq73d32ckqj765&n=skt97h54d8754ca82&e=saq852hkt6dak9c93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s2h2sp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

play Bergen raises by passed hand and over overcalls so 3 clubs was not an option.

 

Really? Gotta dump that agreement yesterday. If it's going to be on, make it only if a jump. Playing cue bids for limit and mixed raises where available is much more flexible.

 

I've had a lot of success with making a heavy pass with 3-cards in the overcall suit (but not with that club suit) when partner reopens with something that gives us a direction or when they pass it out, we most often score well. Choosing spades as a direction by west is ahem, uninspired.

 

Blasting game instead of making a try was just as uninspired by east.

[johnu]

West 75% - East 75%

 

I missed the part about 3♣ as Bergen. Revised blame West 85% - East 85%

[rmnka447]

Your system is set up to accommodate opening a 1 NT with a 5 card major and East didn't do it. So that's a major gaff by East. If you bid 1 NT with virtually 15-17 balanced hands, I think it simplifies and defines your other bidding better. There are some very good players who choose to not bid 1 NT with a balanced 5 ♠ hand. But for most newer and improving players, I think just bidding 1 NT with those hands makes more sense.

 

West's 2 ♠ raise on 2 is wrong. Since 3 ♣ isn't an option because of your bidding agreements. The only options for West are pass and double. Since West can't field a 3 ♦ response by opener, I think pass is right here. Opener with extras will likely double and West can bid 3 ♣ now getting to a decent, but not optimal spot.

 

Since you're playing Bergen raises on over 2 ♥, it would seem that 2 ♠ can't be forward going. In any case, with a 6 loser hand, East should invite, not jump to game. I agree East's game bid is insane. It probably occurred because East felt behind in the auction and was trying to make up for failing to bid 1 NT initially.

 

South shouldn't bid if East opens 1 NT. But let's assume South still makes a 2 ♥ bid. West now has a choice of bids depending on how he evaluates the hand -- 3 NT immediately, 3 NT after Lebensohl, 3 ♣, or pass after Lebensohl. I think West's hand is too strong for a competitive pass after Lebensohl. I'd probably bid 3 NT immediately which opener is happy to pass with ♥ well stopped.

 

If South passes over 1 NT, West can bid 3 ♣ if that's invitational. Otherwise, I think West should bid an invitational 2 NT. With a really good ♣ suit, there will be many hands where 3 NT will be a make if opener can set up the ♣ suit.

[m1cha]

[hv=pc=n&s=sj6haj982dqjt6ct4&w=s43hq73d32ckqj765&n=skt97h54d8754ca82&e=saq852hkt6dak9c93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s2h2sp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

ALL VUL

 

E/W play NT 15-17, and also play puppet over 1 & 2 NT, so often open NT with 5 card major, and play Bergen raises by passed hand and over overcalls so 3 clubs was not an option. Result 4S-2. Was 2s wrong? Should pd expect 3 card support? Was 4S called for?

 

(1) If you have agreed to play 15 - 17 1NT with 5-card majors and have puppet available, you should open 1NT with the East hand - or change your system.

 

(2) 2♥ with the South hand is dangerous, as shown below in (4).

 

(3) Bergen makes good use of the otherwise almost useless jumps to 3♣ and 3♦ in the uncontested auction. After overcalls, these bids may not be jumps any more and needed for more urgent uses, as we can see here. Further, Bergen is not really necessary after an overcall because you can jump-raise partner's suit for pre-emption and overcall overcaller's suit with an invitational hand. Even if you play Bergen with a passed hand and after a double, you'd better not after an overcall.

 

(4) Yes, 2♠ promises 3 cards in ♠. And while it is sometimes necessary to invent a bid, in this case I'd prefer to "invent a pass" and give opener another chance to do his job. Taking the first round of bidding as is, as well as Bergen, I believe it should be continued like this:

p - p - 1♠ - 2♥

p - p - X* - p

p** - p

 

* take-out, showing points;

** with points; some length and values in opponents' suit.

 

2♥X should give you a shared top when down 3 (or more). If down only 1 or 2, you can still expect a good score only behind those who both bid and make 3NT.

 

(5) With Bergen off, the bidding might go

p - p - 1♠ - 2♥

3♣ - p - 3♥ - p

3NT - p - p - p

 

which is down 1, theoretically, after ♥ lead and perfect defense. Worth trying anyway.

 

(6)Interestingly, the situation is similar after a 1NT opener. Some may reach 3NT as EW, some not, and sometimes S may decide to intervene with 2♥ Cappelletti or Landy, which W should double for penalty.

[case_no_6]

The 2S raise was inadvisable since it promises 3 card support and there is nothing about the hand pattern or the nature of the 2 card spade tolerance that is noteworthy or suggestive that the partnership truly belongs in spades. A negative/card showing Double or Pass would be fine.

 

I prefer the Double because, if your and LHO both Pass and partner reopens with a Double, 3C does not do justice to the hand (unless you play Good/Bad 2NT here) and either 2NT or 4C seem speculative.

 

Regardless, 4S clearly was an overbid. A game try is reasonable and, to that end, a natural 2NT seems about right.

 

I largely agree with Caitlynne's comments here. However, I think that Pass, not Double, is right with the West hand. If East reopens with a Double, the standard bid is/should be 2NT showing this hand with clubs. That's because a negative Dbl risks 3D from opener and then West would be stuck. Switch West's clubs and diamonds, however, and a negative Dbl is best because now West can correct East's bid of 3C with 3D.

 

Of course, I have to wonder why East did not open 1NT. Perhaps, however, that is avoided with a small doubleton?

[blackshoe]

1NT-3♣ (Puppet)-3♠-3NT-P.

 

Others are right, though. You need Bergen to be off after an overcall.

[Jinksy]

I would have taken passing and then bidding a new suit at the three level as a fit non-jump.

[Corral_2]

[hv=pc=n&s=sj6haj982dqjt6ct4&w=s43hq73d32ckqj765&n=skt97h54d8754ca82&e=saq852hkt6dak9c93&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s2h2sp4sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

ALL VUL

 

E/W play NT 15-17, and also play puppet over 1 & 2 NT, so often open NT with 5 card major, and play Bergen raises by passed hand and over overcalls so 3 clubs was not an option. Result 4S-2. Was 2s wrong? Should pd expect 3 card support? Was 4S called for?

 

Further down in this discussion I caused things to get convoluted by typing something that was the opposite of what I meant,

 

We play Bergen by passed hand, and over doubles but NOT over interference. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa.

[danmathies]

east 100 percent- when u bit like a little girl these things happen. be a man and open 1nt