Competitive Situation

[dboxley]

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What are your further plans (if any)?

[billw55]

I will double. OK, I don't have four diamonds, but the three I do have are pretty good. For sure, no way am I selling out to 2♥ with this much.

[mikeh]

I pass

 

xxx in hearts is a major (no pun intended) defect for this hand.

 

Put it another way, unless RHO has lost his mind, if partner can't reopen, we have missed nothing. Partner will reopen with almost all opening hands short in hearts, so if he passes, we are well out of the auction. Meanwhile, if he reopens, we can re-evaluate, depending on what he bids. If he reopens with 2♠we can bid 3 or 4 depending on partnership style for the sequence. If he doubles, we can bid 4♣,showing roughly this hand...5+ clubs, not quite enough to have bid 3♣ originally. If he bids 3♦, it wouldn't be clear what to do, but we can temporize via 3♥.

[mgoetze]

Didn't they tell you that if you want to post in the expert forum you have to at least pretend to be one and give the form of scoring?

 

Easy pass at IMPs, not so sure at MPs.

[benlessard]

I bid 2S with these hands for about 10 years and ive never regretted it.

 

A week ago I had.

 

http://bridgewinners.com/article/view/bidding-problem-9377/

 

wich is imo a far worse hand for 2S.

 

♥K9xx instead of xxx is a huge difference and we were in imps.

 

I was a bit worried when it went 3H-3S-AP but we won 7 imps since both 3H and 3S were making.

 

Anyway I think my 2S was probably a mistake at imps but I strongly believe its the right call for the OP problem.

 

Note that after the reopening X its imo a scrambling situration. 3D direct would show values while 2NT-3C-3D would be weak. What im wondering is what is the value range here.

 

if

1D-(2S)-P-(P)

X--(P)--??

 

here 3H directly would be 5-8 pts while 2NT(scrambling) followed by 3H would be weaker. However i dont know if the same range should apply when the suit is D since there is more hands unsuitable for a neg X.

[phil_20686]

I pass

 

xxx in hearts is a major (no pun intended) defect for this hand.

 

Put it another way, unless RHO has lost his mind, if partner can't reopen, we have missed nothing. Partner will reopen with almost all opening hands short in hearts, so if he passes, we are well out of the auction. Meanwhile, if he reopens, we can re-evaluate, depending on what he bids. If he reopens with 2♠we can bid 3 or 4 depending on partnership style for the sequence. If he doubles, we can bid 4♣,showing roughly this hand...5+ clubs, not quite enough to have bid 3♣ originally. If he bids 3♦, it wouldn't be clear what to do, but we can temporize via 3♥.

 

So I kind of agree with this view, but its not without cost. If partner is some AKxxx x xx Axxxx and the bidding goes 1S 2h p 4h you might struggle to get back into this auction. Obviously, this is a slightly contrived example, but there is definitely significant upside to doubling now. Obviously, you might be giving up some upside when you would rather defend two hearts, but since you have a double-ton spade, so you arent that worried about playing 2S vs defending 2h un-doubled.

 

On this hand, with xxx hearts and ten nice looking points inthe minors, I will double, if it was something like x Kxx Qxxx KQxxx then I would probably pass, as I think a stiff spade and a heart honour makes it all quite a lot worse, even if you are kind of "more shape suitable" in some sense. I have a lot more interest in defending 2H in the pretty common case of partner being some 5323 hand.

 

 

Also, three hearts is not such a huge defect as there are not that many hands that cannot support spades, and have fewer than three hearts. I mean I would double with lots of hands with three hearts, maybe that is a style thing.

 

Anyway, I don't have such a strong view either way (although I think actions other than pass or double are crazy!) but I prefer to bid when unsure so I would double here.

[mikeh]

So I kind of agree with this view, but its not without cost. If partner is some AKxxx x xx Axxxx and the bidding goes 1S 2h p 4h you might struggle to get back into this auction. Obviously, this is a slightly contrived example, but there is definitely significant upside to doubling now. Obviously, you might be giving up some upside when you would rather defend two hearts, but since you have a double-ton spade, so you arent that worried about playing 2S vs defending 2h un-doubled.

 

On this hand, with xxx hearts and ten nice looking points inthe minors, I will double, if it was something like x Kxx Qxxx KQxxx then I would probably pass, as I think a stiff spade and a heart honour makes it all quite a lot worse, even if you are kind of "more shape suitable" in some sense. I have a lot more interest in defending 2H in the pretty common case of partner being some 5323 hand.

 

 

Also, three hearts is not such a huge defect as there are not that many hands that cannot support spades, and have fewer than three hearts. I mean I would double with lots of hands with three hearts, maybe that is a style thing.

 

Anyway, I don't have such a strong view either way (although I think actions other than pass or double are crazy!) but I prefer to bid when unsure so I would double here.

I agree that it is close. However, I don't think that LHO is bouncing to 4H very often. The opps will frequently hold six spades between them, and LHO will rarely hold four hearts, and LHO will never hold much hcp, so while 4H isn't impossible, it won't happen very often. Meanwhile, the awkward hands for any double we make will be common.....bearing in mind that when we belong in a contract, partner will usually be able to act after an in tempo pass. If LHO does bid 4H, I will double anyway, and lead a trump. Admittedly, on your example hand, that is probably not much consolation for our club gamete, but I rate to do better than anyone playing 4S, lol.

 

Finally, I have no problem doubling with three hearts....if I am sure we can find an 8 card fit, or play our 5-2 at a low- level. If I knew partner would never bid a 4 card diamond suit, count me in for double. It is the combination of the death holding in hearts and the short diamonds that tips the scales for me.

[GrahamJson]

It seems to me that there isn't much point in playing negative doubles if you don't use them on hands such as this. Ok, it would be nice to have a fourth diamond, but otherwise it looks pretty textbook. A pass is a trap bid. What do you do if partner reopened with a double? 3C looks like an underbid whilst 3H may take you too high.

 

Second choice is 2S, which could work out well, especially if opponents misjudge, placing their partners with a spade shortage.

[cherdano]

I double, and I think it's fairly clear. Passing mostly wins when partner has 3 hearts. But in all other auctions I think double does better.

 

Say partner has a balanced 5=2=3=3 - if we double, we play in 2S, but if we pass, we'll play in 4♣. Say partner has the dreaded 4-card diamond suit: if we double, we play in 3♦. If we pass, he might double with 5=2=4=2 and we play in 4♣ on a 5-2 fit.

 

Obviously this is not a good shape for doubling, but KQ in both minors is just too much to pass.

 

Also, you of course have to double if partner could have a strong NT.

[dboxley]

Didn't they tell you that if you want to post in the expert forum you have to at least pretend to be one and give the form of scoring?

 

Easy pass at IMPs, not so sure at MPs.

 

Unlike you, I don't have to pretend. I was winning regional tournaments before you were born.

 

The scoring was IMPs.

 

BTW, take the time to read your signature and apply it to your answer for IMPs.

[jogs]

I have suggested in a thread in the intermediate to advanced forum that 1♠-(2♥)-X should be spade tolerance and 'cards'. Raises to 3♠ and 4♠ after the double show 3 card support, while raises after a cue shows 4+ support. Opener needn't stretch to reopen against 1♠-(2♥)-p-(p); ?

[zillahandp]

Depending on style double normally but if not 3c pass out of out of the question what do ypu do if p dblss and if he passes put a 0 om you card or minus 5/6 imps

[cherdano]

Oh didn't notice this before:

Easy pass at IMPs, not so sure at MPs.

I think that's the wrong way round - at MPs the dangers of doubling are bigger IMO. Meanwhile, double might get us to game.

[benlessard]

Say partner has a balanced 5=2=3=3 - if we double, we play in 2S

 

huh ?

[benlessard]

I guess its a style question.

 

With my regular partnership X is semi penality (show cards not short in H and 10pts+).

 

But the standard way that ive learned is that X is minors or long D not good enough for 3D or a strong hand with unclear direction (planning to take another bid).

 

With a 5233 I expect opener to rebid 3C. With a 5332 and xxx in H i expect 3D not 2S. In short i expect very good !S to bid 2!S with 5.

 

In retrospect i can understand those who play X ask for a 4m and 2S is a catch-all rebid but i dont see how they can continue if opener rebid of 2S can be anything. You seems to play that X is often 2 trumps and a 5m but i see this as inferior to X is often 54 & 55 in the M.

[cherdano]

2S is the normal rebid with no 4-card minor. Of course if you agree 2N is scrambling (this is probably best here) then you won't have to do it with 5=2=3=3.

[jogs]

I guess its a style question.

 

 

I thought we were debating what is the optimal style. The style which would maximize our expected imps or expected matchpoints.

[nige1]

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dboxley asks "What are your further plans (if any)?"

 

 

I rank

1. Double. Descriptive. Values in minors. Intending to pass 2♠, 3m, 2N, or 3N; and bid 3♠ over 3♥.

2. 2♠. At pairs, playing 5-card majors, this might be the optimal competitive move.

3. Pass. But if partner protects with a double, you are in a dilemma. Bid 2♠ or 3♣ and you might be missing game. Bid 3♥ or anything enterprising and you might punish partner for protecting.

4. 3♣. A bit of a stretch. [/hv]

 

[jogs]

[hv=pc=n&n=st9h965dkqtckq643&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=1s2h]133|200|

dboxley asks "What are your further plans (if any)?"

 

 

I rank

1. Double. Descriptive. Values in minors. Intending to pass 2♠, 3m, 2N, or 3N; and bid 3♠ over 3♥.

2. 2♠. At pairs, playing 5-card majors, this might be the optimal competitive move.

3. Pass. But if partner protects with a double, you are in a dilemma. Bid 2♠ or 3♣ and you might be missing game. Bid 3♥ or anything enterprising and you might punish partner for protecting.

4. 3♣. A bit of a stretch. [/hv]

The main reason I like (1.) over (2.) is I don't want partner competing with 3♠ over 3♥ with any 6 card spade suit.

[benlessard]

The main reason I like (1.) over (2.) is I don't want partner competing with 3♠ over 3♥ with any 6 card spade suit.

 

I disagree about this.

 

If partner is 61 he will fight to 3S anyway (possible he bid 4D with a 6142 ?). if hes 63 they wont compete. So we have to assume hes 62.

 

Yes its only 18 trumps but the hand is pure so i see 17 LOTT trumps. Is both 3H and 3S making more likely than both 3H and 3S going down ? I think so. Even if its a close case the small pickup from +140 vs +50 and -100 vs -140 make up the difference.

[fourdad]

3♣

It should at least be an option in the poll

[TomReynold]

Since I open 4 card majors (with a club system) my issues are different.

 

I double, partner will bid 2S with 11-13HCP and 5 Spades. I pass. Partner will bid 2NT with a 14-16HCP NT. I will raise and hope I make it. With a 14-16HCP NT, 4 Spades to AK, a heart honor and another card say (akxx, Axx Ax xxx) partner will pass playing me for spade shortage). If partner bids 3C I pass because he can have 5 clubs and 4 Spades. Over 3D I bid 3 Spades because his bid confirms 5 spades.

 

At match points the opponents will often help by bidding 2H (1S-2H-x-3H). Partner will pass denying a strong NT (14-16HCP) and confirming 5 Spades.I double because it looks like their is only 15-16 total tricks on the hand.

 

The big problem is when opener doubles showing 14-16HCP but might be 4-2-2-5. Now there are 18 total tricks.

 

Tom

[jogs]

 

The big problem is when opener doubles showing 14-16HCP but might be 4-2-2-5. Now there are 18 total tricks.

 

Tom

 

This is why Lawrence is objecting. Tricks equal trumps is a guideline, a loose guideline. It is certainly not a law.

 

4=2=2=5 // 2=3=3=5

 

With 20 high card points the expected tricks with clubs as trumps is =< 9. There will be likely duplication of values.

With a 5-5 fit, there needs to be a singleton in one of the hands before the expected tricks can be 10.

[mikeh]

3♣

It should at least be an option in the poll

why?

[phil_20686]

I guess its a style question.

 

With my regular partnership X is semi penality (show cards not short in H and 10pts+).

 

But the standard way that ive learned is that X is minors or long D not good enough for 3D or a strong hand with unclear direction (planning to take another bid).

 

With a 5233 I expect opener to rebid 3C. With a 5332 and xxx in H i expect 3D not 2S. In short i expect very good !S to bid 2!S with 5.

 

In retrospect i can understand those who play X ask for a 4m and 2S is a catch-all rebid but i dont see how they can continue if opener rebid of 2S can be anything. You seems to play that X is often 2 trumps and a 5m but i see this as inferior to X is often 54 & 55 in the M.

 

This feels very odd. I understand why you are so keen to bid 2S on two cards if double basically rules you out of a 5-2 spade fit!

 

I wouldn't play 2N as natural from either side, which deals with these hands. If you double when you want to force partner into bidding a minor, then you bid 2N over the expected 2s response. That forces partner to bid a minor.