How to bid and play this

[zdedo]

[hv=pc=n&w=saj963hkt7dq2c854&e=skqhaj854daj65cj2&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=1hp1sp2dp2hp3hppp]266|200[/hv]

In this hand is E had to bid game? or how is the right bid?

2- how to play the hand after the K♣ lead followed by Q over took by A and club ruff - exit with Spade 5?

Thank you

[Jinksy]

W needs to bid 3♥ on his second call. His 2♥ bid is consistent with Jxxx xx xxx KQxx, so E was being quite ambitious in even raising to 3.

 

[ETA] West might just pass 2♦ with this to avoid encouraging his partner to continue, but make it Jxxx xx xx KQxxx and he'd have to bid as in the OP.

[zdedo]

W needs to bid 3♥ on his second call. His 2♥ bid is consistent with Jxxx xx xxx KQxx, so E was being quite ambitious in even raising to 3.

 

So you mean both are wrong bids 2 and 3 ♥?

[Jinksy]

2♥ is definitely wrong. He'd have been better raising 1♥ to 2♥ on his first call, which at least shows 3-card support (but shows about 5-9 points, so still understates this hand slightly).

 

E's third call in the auction (assuming W's 2♥ bid) is tougher. If he passes, he might find they make game when partner has a good 9-count. If he bids 3♥, he's really suggesting a 6-card suit (since P might only have 2 hearts), so might find himself uncomfortably high on a 5-2 fit. If he bids 2N without a club stop, the opponents might run the club suit against him in 2N or 3N (or he might just find partner with a misfitting 6 count and have no play to make even on a non-club lead). Personally I would pass 2♥ since my jacks don't look like they're pulling much weight without some intermediates to back them up, but I doubt that will be a universal choice on the forum.

 

If the bidding goes - as it should - 1♥ 1♠ / 2♦ 3♥, now E has an easy raise to 4♥.

[mgoetze]

(The following assumes you are playing 5-card major openings.)

 

If you are too weak to invite, you must show your support for partner's suit immediately, hence 1♠ followed by 2♥ denies as many as 3 hearts. I do consider West's hand to be strong enough to invite, but to show this he must bid 3♥ rather than 2♥. East even gave him another chance to catch up by bidding 3♥ - at this point bidding 4♥ should really be automatic for West.

 

From East's point of view, given that 2♥ denies 3-card support, 3♥ is surely the wrong call. I do understand his desire to invite, but the bid for that must be 2NT.

[kuhchung]

lol I could see myself bidding 1H 2H all pass

 

Might be a pickup against 4H -1 :)

[zdedo]

I suggest the biding can go like this

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♥-4♥

 

now every replay is ignoring the play- but fyi it makes but How?

[mgoetze]

now every replay is ignoring the play- but fyi it makes but How?

Well, I didn't quite understand how you said it started. On the third round of clubs, what did we do? Ruff and get overruffed? Discard something?

[cheers OvO]

1S isn't a bid worse than 2H/3H because west may find a better fit if east has 4support. After east bids a new suit to show a good hand which is not so strong, west has to stop at 4H immediately with not so good distribution but 3support and 10hcp only and to indicate that you have 4H(he knows you have 25+pts) but he has no interest in slams. So I suggest the process：1H-1S-2D-4H. Some readers may dislike 2D weaker than a general reverse because 3jacks are the most useless honors, but it's more acceptable in relaxed discussion.

 

After north plays the 3rd round club, south seems to have another doubleton. If you ignore the trumping, you will get down if you can't draw HQ or DK. We must try a safer play. And we have to think about the distribution of trumps：

(1) There is no hope for you with 5-5-3-0

(2) With weird hand like 5-4-3-1(especially Qxxx&x on opps) and void spade and void diamond, it will go too far in this relaxed discussion. But you can go to advanced+ area to ask for more perfect plays.

(3) With 5-3-3-2, it's much easier to draw all the trumps. But it doesn't say it's so easy to make 4H. Here we take 4 situations into account. (south/north)

a. Qx/xxx b. xxx/Qx c.Qxx/xx d.xx/Qxx

 

As I have said you had best not ignore the trumping of 3rd round club, I suggest you play HJ. If south trumps by HQ in situation a and situation c, you will make 4H however they defend. Otherwise north has HQ in situation b and situation d. And then I suggest you play HA and then H10. In situation d, HQ becomes your 3rd loser but then you can play SK, SQ and then play the cross on trump to dummy for spades. But in situation b, HQ becomes your 3rd loser and then north may play the 4th round club for one more possible trumping by south. At this position the only hope for you is to play H8 and then you will get down with H9 on south；Otherwise you will still make it. The pholosophy of my play is to save a cross on trumps to dummy to prevent the distribution of spades is 5-4-2-2 with 10xxx/xx on opps and so you can't run away the possible loser on diamonds unless you draw DK on north. Some players may play HA and then HK, but in situation c and situation d they will get 3rd loser immediately and so they will be more likely to get down unless they get 5-5-3-3 spades or 5-4-4-2 with 10x/xxxx on opps.

[Trump Echo]

I agree with Jinsky

[fourdad]

While I understand that this may overlook a possible 5-4 spade fit, I have found that chasing a second fit once you know you have a fit is more often counterproductive than not.

Hence the most straightforward bid by W is an immediate jump raise to 3♥. E bids 4 and the auction is done.

 

As to the play, if I understand correctly, Declarer has lost the forst 3 tricks and is in with a spade?

[Jinksy]

While I understand that this may overlook a possible 5-4 spade fit, I have found that chasing a second fit once you know you have a fit is more often counterproductive than not.

Hence the most straightforward bid by W is an immediate jump raise to 3♥. E bids 4 and the auction is done.

 

Only if you use stone-age bidding methods. For pretty much all strong players 3♥ would show 4-card support, and for many it would be a preemptive raise, denying this many points.

[mgoetze]

Only if you use stone-age bidding methods. For pretty much all strong players 3♥ would show 4-card support, and for many it would be a preemptive raise, denying this many points.

FWIW that particular stone-age method works reasonably well and I have agreed to play it in a pickup partnership as recently as 2015. ;) But yes, serious partnerships will obviously play a different method, such as 1♥-2♦ = 3-card limit raise.

[Jinksy]

FWIW that particular stone-age method works reasonably well and I have agreed to play it in a pickup partnership as recently as 2015. ;) But yes, serious partnerships will obviously play a different method, such as 1♥-2♦ = 3-card limit raise.

 

Most stone-age methods work passably (whether or not you happen to have played them) but they are still neither optimal nor standard, and shouldn't be advocated as such in here.

[zdedo]

[hv=pc=n&s=st85hq962dkt84ckq&w=saj963hkt7dq2c854&n=s742h3d973cat9762&e=skqhaj854daj65cj3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=ppp1hp1sp2dp2hp3hppp&p=ckc4c2cjcqc5cac3c6h4h6c8s5s3s2sksqs8s6s4hah2h7h3h5h9htc7hkc9h8hqsas7d5stsjd3d6d4s9ctdjd8dqd7dadthjdkd2]399|300[/hv]

 

Here is the full hand and how it makes 10 tricks

The q now how can declarer tills the 4-1 ♥ split?

[zdedo]

[hv=pc=n&s=st85hq962dkt84ckq&w=saj963hkt7dq2c854&n=s742h3d973cat9762&e=skqhaj854daj65cj3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=ppp1hp1sp2dp2hp3hppp&p=ckc4c2cjcqc5cac3c6h4h6c8s5s3s2sksqs8s6s4hah2h7h3h5h9htc7hkc9h8hqsas7d5stsjd3d6d4s9ctdjd8dqd7dadthjdkd2]399|300[/hv]

 

Here is the full hand and how it makes 10 tricks

The q now how can declarer tills the 4-1 ♥ split?

[zdedo]

[hv=pc=n&s=st85hq962dkt84ckq&w=saj963hkt7dq2c854&n=s742h3d973cat9762&e=skqhaj854daj65cj3&d=s&v=b&b=7&a=ppp1hp1sp2dp2hp3hppp&p=ckc4c2cjcqc5cac3c6h4h6c8s5s3s2sksqs8s6s4hah2h7h3h5h9htc7hkc9h8hqsas7d5stsjd3d6d4s9ctdjd8dqd7dadthjdkd2]399|300[/hv]

 

Here is the full hand and how it makes 10 tricks

The q now how can declarer tills the 4-1 ♥ split?

[fourdad]

Most stone-age methods work passably (whether or not you happen to have played them) but they are still neither optimal nor standard, and shouldn't be advocated as such in here.

 

And I have found that most do not have std partnership agreements and claim to be adv experts when they are not and do not fully understand the systemic "ripple" effects of the so called "non-stone age" agreements.

 

A bidding system must fit like a glove and what arrogance refers to as stone age can just as easily be referred to as solid, proven basics.

[Jinksy]

Stone age methods have ripple effects too, and you can't expect them to be some universal default. Few decent players would expect to find a hand with 3 hearts for an undiscussed 3♥ bid. Most of the time you'll get away with it, but it's a poor use of the space, and will occasionally lead to silly contracts (including when you don't bid it, because of aforementioned ripples).

 

If you're going to bandy around accusations of arrogance, don't jump into a thread announcing that your way is the 'most straightforward' and therefore implicitly the best one. Especially when it isn't either.

[fourdad]

Stone age methods have ripple effects too, and you can't expect them to be some universal default. Few decent players would expect to find a hand with 3 hearts for an undiscussed 3♥ bid. Most of the time you'll get away with it, but it's a poor use of the space, and will occasionally lead to silly contracts (including when you don't bid it, because of aforementioned ripples).

 

If you're going to bandy around accusations of arrogance, don't jump into a thread announcing that your way is the 'most straightforward' and therefore implicitly the best one. Especially when it isn't either.

 

Was not taking a personal shot, rather a general comment...and did not say that my suggstion was "better" or "worse"....I always believe that these issues come up because of no partnership agreement the vast majority of the time.

 

Having said that, the suggestion I made works here. I will continue to make what you view as "stone age" and they will continue to work.

 

Feel free to pint out when they do not!

[Stephen Tu]

The alternative to 1♠ is 2♥, not 3♥. If you think the hand is strong enough for an invite (I do, personally), I see nothing to recommend 3♥ over 1♠. I don't see why this would ever be "counterproductive". Bidding 1♠ then jumping to 3♥ would describe the hand perfectly, it finds superior spade fits, it doesn't overstate the length of the heart support. Where's the downside? (I suppose you could argue that you reveal less to the defense on heart contracts). The debate about stone-age vs. stone-age is basically irrelevant IMO.

 

The key thing is if one bids 1♠, you are committed to bidding *3♥*, not 2♥. 2♥ as noted is just a preference, and won't be particularly encouraging to partner. If one judges the hand *not* to be worth an immediate invite, in a 5 card major system it is very important to raise hearts directly, and not bid 1♠. This is far more encouraging to partner and will be better able to find games on hands that don't have a move over just a preference. You gain more often by finding these games than you lose by occasionally playing 2♥ when 2♠ happens to play better. Note if you have a game in spades it's still possible to get there after 1♥-2♥-2♠-3♠. When you are strong enough for two descriptive bids without partner showing extras, it's usually better to make them, you give a fuller description. The time to bury the spades is when you only have enough for a single raise, because concealing the 3rd heart is too injurious to your side.

 

As for the play, it seems to me a lot easier to make if you ruff the 3rd club with hj.

[Stephen Tu]

1S isn't a bid worse than 2H/3H because west may find a better fit if east has 4support. After east bids a new suit to show a good hand which is not so strong, west has to stop at 4H immediately with not so good distribution but 3support and 10hcp only and to indicate that you have 4H(he knows you have 25+pts) but he has no interest in slams. So I suggest the process：1H-1S-2D-4H. Some readers may dislike 2D weaker than a general reverse because 3jacks are the most useless honors, but it's more acceptable in relaxed discussion.

Almost no one plays the old Roth-Stone idea that new suit by opener (vs. 1nt) shows extras anymore. 2♦ for most doesn't show more than a minimum opener. So 4♥ is going to be an overbid, 3♥ will get the job done.

[mikeh]

The hand is far more interesting, I think, than the comments so far suggest.

 

Let's start with Stephen's suggestion that declarer ruff the 3rd club with the Jack.

 

Now, most players would automatically overruff, and the hand is now of no interest. However, a strong player can see that he always gets a heart trick no matter what, and so may pitch smoothly.

 

Consider declarer's situation should the J hold and S have pitched with little thought. Many declarers, who would themselves have overruffed were they South, would now have a completely incorrect view of the hand. They would place N with the Queen of trump.

 

How would you play then? I think the logical line is to play the A and unblock the spades and then low to the K. Now S has 2 trump tricks.

 

One might argue that declarer ought to unblock the spades and then play heart A and low to the 10, which works on the given hand since spades are 3-3 and S in any even has no safe diamond exit even if he has short spades. Indeed, I think that line to be clearly correct, but my point is that ducking the heart J is safe, in the context of the trump suit, and may persuade an incautious or inexperienced declarer to go wrong.

 

On the actual hand, with (I assume) a low ruff and then an overruff, the question for declarer is whether to assume that hearts are now 2-2 (thus originally 3-2) or whether to go with what I think to be the better analysis: with clubs known to be 6-2, place the heart Queen with S, and tackle hearts by laying down the Ace, unblock spades (in case they are 4-2) and then low to the 10.

[zillahandp]

Sry west's 2hts the error 3hts is clear, west must bid a spade and two ds shows 5/4 in the reds. Tough 4hts goes down but its 75% plus chance sometimes lousy bidding eg being in two hts gets you agood result but only a small percent of the time. End of non question!