Precision: 1D-1H; 1S. How many diamonds?

[Kungsgeten]

Playing a nebulous diamond and a strong club, where 1♦ may be 2+ cards (or perhaps even a singleton), how many diamonds should opener promise when he rebids spades in the auction 1♦-♥; 1♠ (let's assume that 1♥ and 1♠ are natural)? Where I live strong club is uncommon and for most 1m-1X; 1M can be a balanced opener, it does not matter if you play strong club or not. It seems to me as many experts play auctions like 1♣-1♥; 1♠ as showing an unbalanced hand though (when clubs is natural, or possibly 2+), so I was wondering about the trend for strong club systems. How does Meckwell play, for instance?

[wank]

i would say you need to specify which shapes are in your 1d opener. the lack of a precision style 2c opener (or something which covers the same hand like a 4M5c(or m) 2M opener) affects which hands you need to show after 1d openings.

[Zelandakh]

The normal procedure is to rebid 1♠ with 4 spades even if balanced. The limited nature of the opening bid makes this situation different from a nebulous 1♣ opening.

[rbforster]

I played rebidding NT showed balanced with or without 4 spades, so a 1S rebid shows an unbalanced hand. You can play it however you want; there are trade offs to both.

[Kungsgeten]

i would say you need to specify which shapes are in your 1d opener. the lack of a precision style 2c opener (or something which covers the same hand like a 4M5c(or m) 2M opener) affects which hands you need to show after 1d openings.

 

The 1D I'm thinking about is where 2C shows 6+ clubs and 1NT is 14-16 (like Meckwell). I have never seen a playerin Sweden play like this though, here a 5+ 2C opening seems more popular. If you rebid differently depending on which style is played, please tell. Here's the two styles:

 

11-13 NT or unbalanced with primary diamonds or unbalanced with 5 clubs, a 4 card side suit and 2+ diamonds.

 

11-13 NT or unbalanced with 4+ diamonds (could have longer clubs) or any 4441 hand (could have singleton diamond).

[Free]

With my partner I always bid 1♠ with a 4 card, even if balanced or with longer ♣s. So it's still 2+♦. However, you can ofcourse agree to rebid 1NT with all (semi)balanced hands, which would make your ♦s more natural. I think that's not such a good agreement, but it's playable.

[SteelWheel]

The 1D I'm thinking about is where 2C shows 6+ clubs and 1NT is 14-16 (like Meckwell). I have never seen a playerin Sweden play like this though, here a 5+ 2C opening seems more popular. If you rebid differently depending on which style is played, please tell. Here's the two styles:

 

11-13 NT or unbalanced with primary diamonds or unbalanced with 5 clubs, a 4 card side suit and 2+ diamonds.

 

11-13 NT or unbalanced with 4+ diamonds (could have longer clubs) or any 4441 hand (could have singleton diamond).

Style #1 is the one my pards and I fell into when playing Precision with 14-16 NTs. So in theory, 1♦--1♥--1♠ showed an unbalanced hand (failure to open or rebid 1NT)--but we still weren't sure if clubs or diamonds was the five card suit (we played the 2♣ opening almost always had at least a six-card holding).

 

Eventually, we found that we hated opening 1♦ on a non-suit when we had two perfectly good ones to be proud of. We started opening 1♠ a lot with chunky four-baggers.

 

All of which has led me to believe that Hamman is right, and that four card major and canape is the right way to play a strong club system.

[johnu]

When diamonds may be the third (or 4th in some 0+ or 1+ 1♦ opener variations) longest suit in an unbalanced hand, it seems to be a good idea to show a balanced hand right away by rebidding 1NT after 1♦ - 1♥ and suppress the spades for now. If partner has an invitational or better hand with 4 spades in addition to 4+ hearts, you can find spades, if not, let's see how well the opponents defend 1NT.

 

If you play 2♣ shows 6 clubs and denies a 4 card major, you could be 4=1=3=5, 4=2=1=6, 4=3=0=6, etc. which is why you will see some players saying they play 1♦ as showing 0+ diamonds.

[Kungsgeten]

If you play 2♣ shows 6 clubs and denies a 4 card major, you could be 4=1=3=5, 4=2=1=6, 4=3=0=6, etc. which is why you will see some players saying they play 1♦ as showing 0+ diamonds.

 

I've seen some people play 1D as showing 0+ diamonds (where 1D wasn't strong). I haven't seen this method you mention though, but rather these:

 

1. Usually balanced or real diamond suit, but may be 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5 (so 2C is still 5+ suit, but not 4-4-0-5).

2. Balanced or an unbalanced hand with a 4 card major and a 4+ minor (so may be 4-2-0-7 for instance).

3. Variants of 2. (awm play something similar, I've also seen people include 5-5 minors)

4. Unbalanced hand without a four card major (so single suited minor or both minors, could be 3-3-0-7).

5. Flamingo diamond ala Ken Rexford's MICS system: Either a single-suiter in one of the minors, or real diamonds and a longer side suit (or 5-5).

[awm]

For what it's worth, what I play is that 1♦ is any of:

 

1. A weak notrump (no 5M)

2. 4441,4450,4351 with any shortness (even diamonds) but no 5M

3. 5+/5+ minors

 

Of these the weak notrump is by far most common (about 2/3 of hands).

 

We just bid up the line here, so 1d-1h-1s shows four spades and 1nt denies. We do bid 1nt on some hands with singleton in partners major. We play XYZ (with relays) over these sequences, which seems good since opener is so often a weak NT.

[kwiktrix]

Depends on a number of variables:

1) What is 2♦?

2) How many clubs in 2♣?

3) Can you have a 4cM in 2♣?

4) Does you notrump range overlap your 1♦ opening?

 

We play that 2♣ denies 4+M (MAFIA leanings), and we don't use 2♦ to show diamond shortness, so 1♦-1♥-1♠ can potentially be be 4=3=0=6, but more commonly 4=3=1=5.

 

So my answer is ZERO, which isn't an option in the Poll.