A bid about limli raise

[fourdad]

Let me try this again...I keep replying to a particular posts and they are not showing up.

 

Your description of a TOX is PARTIALLY correct.....it is, as you describe, an opening hand with support for the unbid suits...........OR....

 

A BETTER than opening hand (16+) of ANY shape planning to bid again.

 

In this case, if you DBL then show spades it will be easy to stop in 4S!!

 

This is what your partner was playing. The real issue is that you had no partnership agreement in this area.

 

Neither YOUR way or HIS way are the ONLY ways.

[Vampyr]

As Cheers decided to delete my response to his lack of gratitude (LOL( it is apparent he is not interested in discussing any way but his way.

 

I don't see how Cheers can delete your messages unless he has told a moderator that they are mean. I haven't seen anything particularly mean in what you have written.

 

Let me try this again...I keep replying to a particular posts and they are not showing up.

 

Your description of a TOX is PARTIALLY correct.....it is, as you describe, an opening hand with support for the unbid suits...........OR....

 

A BETTER than opening hand (16+) of ANY shape planning to bid again.

 

In this case, if you DBL then show spades it will be easy to stop in 4S!!

 

This is what your partner was playing. The real issue is that you had no partnership agreement in this area.

 

Neither YOUR way or HIS way are the ONLY ways.

 

 

Perhaps not, but of course doubling and then showing a GOSH is very basic bidding in any system.

 

And on this hand, I particularly like doubling because it doesn't lose the hearts.

[Zelandakh]

Perhaps not, but of course doubling and then showing a GOSH is very basic bidding in any system.

This is the point Stephanie, the OP seems to think that this is not part of standard bidding and that she is more grounded in the basics than she really is.

[Vampyr]

This is the point Stephanie, the OP seems to think that this is not part of standard bidding and that she is more grounded in the basics than she really is.

 

Yes I know. It's just that fourdad seemed to indicate that this was not the only way to bid, but it really is. It is not helpful to give OP the impression that there is much of a choice about the matter unless she and a partner want to develop a highly non-standard system.

[cheers OvO]

Oh fourdad, nobody deserved to accept your comments fully. You needed to be more open-minded and try a little humility when you couldn't explain your way well. The double could be better description of my hand than an overcall not because I wouldn't get so high and probably get 4S. By other ways discussed above, I would still get 4S so long as I read 3S correctly. So in fact you failed to give a full reason. Please take a look at what Stephen Tu said "The scenario you are avoiding by doubling rather than overcalling is 1d-(1s)-all pass when you have game on. Because a one level overcall can be rather weak (7/8 pts), responder is not going to respond with all 6/7/8 counts like he would if you had opened the bidding, because it's dangerous to jack up the bidding on a possible misfit when both players aren't very strong. Responder might have a 2524 7 count and have no sensible bid over 1s other than pass, and then you have missed 4."

 

Now I give more thanks to 1eyedjack for reminding me michael, Stephen Tu for the reason of double, awkhoo for this comment "At unfavorable (vulnerability), without any singletons, 3♠ is a little risky, so I might only bid 2."

[Vampyr]

Oh fourdad, nobody deserved to accept your comments fully. You needed to be more open-minded and try a little humility when you couldn't explain your way well.

 

If you felt that fourdad didn't explain his everyone's use of takeout doubles, it is probably because, as mentioned by a poster above, you are less familiar than he thought with basic bidding methods.

[cheers OvO]

If you felt that fourdad didn't explain his everyone's use of takeout doubles, it is probably because, as mentioned by a poster above, you are less familiar than he thought with basic bidding methods.

 

Oh Vampyr, you seemed not to check all comments carefully. He kept indicating that I was wrong to ignore the double he considered the best bid just because I wouldn't get too high. But the reason was far away from that because, as I have said above, other ways posted above wouldn't go too far, either. And I got the risky contract mainly due to my misunderstanding on 3S. Also as you mentioned, he failed to explain why doubleton clubs would be accepted while Stephen Tu provided a situation to show why it's still agreeable. After I asked for constructive advices and then he couldn't fully prove his better way of bidding, he was not so good a teacher as he thought but was still another learner here.

If one wants more respect from others, he shall do something more respectable. My attitude is obvious, "no arrogance with ignorance otherwise you deserve no respect."

[Stephen Tu]

I was reminded some prefer 2D with nice highers like my AKxxx AKxx although michael plays at least 5-5 generally.

Now I give more thanks to 1eyedjack for reminding me michael

 

Nobody was recommending starting with a michaels cue bid ((1♦)-2♦), you are misreading his post. He said "direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)?". He was suggesting that restricting takeout doubles to solely "support all unbid suit" hands was only sensible if playing strong jump overcalls or playing the direct cue as some generally strong hand, NOT using the direct cue as michaels. He was suggesting 2♦ only if you had an uncommon agreement of NOT playing michaels.

 

Michaels with this hand is rather poor because it is supposed to be normally 5-5, and it is hard to know what to do if partner supports hearts; correcting to spades would suggest 6-5. Meanwhile you have the perfectly sensible alternative of double first then bid spades if partner bids clubs/NT. Using Michaels with 4-5 hands, 4 spades 5 hearts, is a common expert tactic, usually with 4=5=2=2 or 4=5=3=1, with *weaker* hands, good spades, not wanting to overcall 1♥ and potentially losing the spade suit. With a weaker hand, it's not possible to double then bid hearts over clubs, because that would then be an overbid. With 4=5=1=3, typically one still overcalls 1♥ because one can double over a 2♦ raise and not mind if partner bids clubs. Using Michaels with 5=4 spades/hearts is less advisable because usually one is either strong enough to double first, or one can try 1♠ first and 2♥ later (if sensible) giving partner a correct view of the relative suit lengths. 1♥ followed by 2♠ is less palatable because of the reverse forcing a preference at the 3 level.

[Stephen Tu]

If one wants more respect from others, he shall do something more respectable. My attitude is obvious, "no arrogance with ignorance otherwise you deserve no respect."

 

I think what you are missing is that it is your initial reply to his post that seems disrespectful/arrogant, dismissing his suggestion of starting with double, saying that it shows support for all 3 suits and that this is something one learns as a beginner. When in fact this is a showing an incomplete understanding of takeout doubles by you, not him.

 

His reasoning that not doubling was the reason you got too high is suspect, but your post is the one that comes off as arrogant, not his, saying that double is not an option and that one should learn that as a beginner.

[helene_t]

Cheers ovo,

 

I really think this thread can be very fruitful for you if you read the replies with an open mind. You will learn two important things: that your hand was to strong for an overcall and that partners 3sp bid is normally understood as weak.

 

A third point: it is rude to comment on dummy using multiple question marks.

[cheers OvO]

I was reminded with michael not because he suggested it but due to his words "2-suited". I have seen in a vulgraph match a national player used michael with good 5-4 highers which I remembered was a little weaker than my AKQXX AKXX. The pholosophy of this way is that greater suits with greater hcp can compensate the shorter highers. So I don't know if your comments are recommended by real experts. But at least you always gave a full reason, not like fourdad just to dig who is wrong but couldn't provide constructive explanation. And helene_t, please notice my initial question before criticizing willfully just because I didn't give more thanks to you !

[helene_t]

As far as I can see you didn't ask any questions (other than the one about what East should bid and I have answered that in case you care), you just said that you wanted to listen to constructive advice. And you got constructive advice so hopefully you will listen to it.

 

No need to thank me since I am just repeating what others have said already.

[steve2005]

Yes, there would usually be some overlap, as with four spades you can't bid 3 with 6- points and cuebid with 10+ only.

 

And also of course you might bid 2♠ with 4 trumps and a flat hand, or with fewer than 6 points.

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

 

But you need to teach to partner that with a limit raise or better you cue=bid (unless you have agreed to some artificial raise). This is so useful whether opening or overcalling. Otherwise you get the typical novice bidding of 1♠-4♠ with a big hand and you will be missing slams.

 

 

[1eyedjack]

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

I would not want to defend at the 3 level, however useful my ace may be, and I would prefer that oppo made their last guess with minimal space

[Vampyr]

Have to agree. I think this is a 2♠ bid. No singleton, no trump honor and a side ace which will be just as useful on defense.

 

Agree? With me? I would have bid 3♠.

[MrAce]

Thanks for all advices. But my real question is still about what 3S means. As you all know, 2S shows 3support with 6-10pts so 3S as preempt shows below 6pts(and 4support). But I can also bid 3S with 4support and 10-12pts, and 3D shows a much stronger hand maybe with 17pts. How do you know what your p means？That's why I added a choice "It needs agreement with your p". rd bid 3S just after 2D and I thought he tried to show the later meaning(10-12) by that active tempo. As I held AK both in highers, his 1st(and 2nd if needed) answer to rkcb asking for keys might be 1st(2nd) round controls on minors so I gave up with cue bid suggested by Stephen Tu.

 

 

 

1- E has a perfect 3♠ preempt. Almost textbook.

 

2-About 10-12 4 card support ; anything over 10+ hcp you start with a cuebid, showing you have 3+ card support and (10)11+ hcp. Cue means limit raise or better. Pd should continue as if cue is limit raise. If better responder makes another move. This is not the best method, but since you believe 3♠ can be both weak and 10-12 hcp at the same time, I believe you should just go with the basics for now.

 

3-As Gordon said, 4 NT is a very bad call vs a weak 3♠ with a balanced hand.

 

4-3♦ shows a hand with 4 card support and less than cue (less than 11) more than preempt (7-9 or bad 10). Do not worry about having 17+ hcp and support. This is included in "limit raise or better cue"

 

5-Starting overcall with 19 hcp is not the end of the world to me. I do it sometimes, my usual max overcall limit is 18. But holding 4 card ♥ on the side increases your chances to make game vs a little. Assume your pd had short spades and 4-5 hearts with 6-7 hcp, which he would pass. But I definitely can live with this overcall.

 

Cheers and have a nice day http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Vampyr]

2-About 10-12 4 card support ; anything over 10+ hcp you start with a cuebid, showing you have 3+ card support and (10)11+ hcp. Cue means limit raise or better.

 

4-3♦ shows a hand with 4 card support and less than cue (less than 11) more than preempt (7-9 or bad 10). Do not worry about having 17+ hcp and support. This is included in "limit raise or better cue"

 

How does partner sort out this 2-way cuebid?

[MrAce]

How does partner sort out this 2-way cuebid?

 

What 2 way cuebid?

[Vampyr]

What 2 way cuebid?

 

Your #s 2 and 4 indicate different meanings for the cuebid.

[gwnn]

What 2 way cuebid?

She means that your RHO has already bid 2D (a single raise of his pd) so you have only one cue which is 3D.

[Vampyr]

She means that your RHO has already bid 2D (a single raise of his pd) so you have only one cue which is 3D.

 

If it is simply a case of not having looked at the hand, then I would suggest that Mr Ace remove his drivel as it will be very confusing to the OP and any other beginners who might read this thread.

[MrAce]

She means that your RHO has already bid 2D (a single raise of his pd) so you have only one cue which is 3D.

 

I did not see the raise Csaba. Thanks for figuring it out without implying something else like the troll above did.

Since 2♦ is out of question in this case, only cue available is 3♦ with all 11+ and support hands. 2 NT can be used artificial. But I will not suggest it to this particular OP.

[Vampyr]

I did not see the raise Csaba. Thanks for figuring it out without implying something else like the troll above did.

Since 2♦ is out of question in this case, only cue available is 3♦ with all 11+ and support hands. 2 NT can be used artificial. But I will not suggest it to this particular OP.

 

LOL call me a troll or w/e the important part is removing the nonsense because it will only cause confusion.

[Charlie Yu]

Seems like both of you have no idea what is going on. 1S is gross underbid, shows 8-15 pts, how can your p know what is going on if you bid 1S on 19. 3S is probably limit raise without further agreement, but your p bid is preemptive.

[jogs]

The problem is the 4NT bid, not the 3S bid.

Now that I look again at this board, I agree with Gordon. You should not ask for aces with a doubleton in opponent's suit.