A bid about limli raise

[cheers OvO]

http://tinyurl.com/qbrzy5p

As you all can see now, rd bid 3s and I tried slams. He then answered 5c after we agreed to play his rkcb0314. Althought I stopped at 5s, I still got down because I failed to draw QJX on opp.

Just after the lead, I said "5pts???" and then he explained it as a limit raise. He kept on to say I should have bid a double rather than the overcall. What's more, he said "wd idiot p" when he found the contract was going down.

Anyway, his answer should be 5d due to clubA and I preferred 2s to 3s. But now I want to listen to more constructive advices.

[akwoo]

http://tinyurl.com/qbrzy5p

As you all can see now, rd bid 3s and I tried slams. He then answered 5c after we agreed to play his rkcb0314. Althought I stopped at 5s, I still got down because I failed to draw QJX on opp.

Just after the lead, I said "5pts???" and then he explained it as a limit raise. He kept on to say I should have bid a double rather than the overcall. What's more, he said "wd idiot p" when he found the contract was going down.

Anyway, his answer should be 5d due to HA and I preferred 2s to 3s. But now I want to listen to more constructive advices.

 

At any other vulnerability, I would bid 3♠ without question. I think it is normal that 3♠ in that position shows 4 spades and less than 10 points (and some play less than 8 or even less than 6 in some situations). If one has strength and support, one bids the opponents suit (3♦).

 

General rule: Unless your length in the suit is already limited by prior bidding, all raises in competition are pre-emptive to Law of Total Tricks level. All strong raises go through bidding opponents' suit.

 

At unfavorable, without any singletons, 3♠ is a little risky, so I might only bid 2.

[RunemPard]

Your partner obviously had no clue what a limit raise is. The best way to show a limit+ raise in this sequence is to bid the opponents suit, showing support. A jump bid is typically preemptive with 0-7 hcp and a 4 card suit(depending on vulnerability).

 

You have promised no more than maybe 8 hcp, so making a limit raise on this hand is foolish.

[Stephen Tu]

You need agreements as to how strong 3♠ is. Most people these days play jump bids in competition as weak, not invitational.

 

Even if you think 3♠ shows a stronger hand, and partner therefore misbid, bidding RKC is poor. Because you have 2 fast losers in diamonds, the opp's suit. A better bid is 4♣, to see if partner can show a diamond control (ace/singleton; on this auction won't show the K since he doesn't know about your DQ and the lead is going through him into opening bidder who probably has ace). There's no need to risk the 5 level when there is a very high probability you are off the first two diamond tricks. Generally you are not supposed to bid RKC without at least 2nd round control in side suits when partner hasn't shown any control in that suit either.

[gordontd]

The problem is the 4NT bid, not the 3S bid.

[cheers OvO]

Thanks for all advices. But my real question is still about what 3S means. As you all know, 2S shows 3support with 6-10pts so 3S as preempt shows below 6pts(and 4support). But I can also bid 3S with 4support and 10-12pts, and 3D shows a much stronger hand maybe with 17pts. How do you know what your p means？That's why I added a choice "It needs agreement with your p". rd bid 3S just after 2D and I thought he tried to show the later meaning(10-12) by that active tempo. As I held AK both in highers, his 1st(and 2nd if needed) answer to rkcb asking for keys might be 1st(2nd) round controls on minors so I gave up with cue bid suggested by Stephen Tu.

[Vampyr]

Thanks for all advices. But my real question is still about what 3S means. As you all know, 2S shows 3support with 6-10pts so 3S as preempt shows below 6pts(and 4support).

 

Yes.

 

But I can also bid 3S with 4support and 10-12pts,

 

Well, no. See your own comment above.

 

and 3D shows a much stronger hand maybe with 17pts.

 

 

It's OK, 3♦ is unlimited.

 

How do you know what your p means？That's why I added a choice "It needs agreement with your p". rd bid 3S just after 2D and I thought he tried to show the later meaning(10-12) by that active tempo.

 

You can agree to show invitational values with 3♠, but it would be a very unusual agreement.

 

It is improper, by the way, to take partner's tempo into account.

[mgoetze]

As you all know, 2S shows 3support with 6-10pts so 3S as preempt shows below 6pts(and 4support).

No, the aspect of "3-support with 6-10 points" that is primarily denied by 3♠ is "3-support", not "6-10 points". You can agree different strengths for this, though logically they should be dictated by the vulnerability, but this hand surely fits almost any sensible definition.

 

But I can also bid 3S with 4support and 10-12pts,

You can but I wouldn't recommend it (my recommendation would be 2NT).

 

and 3D shows a much stronger hand maybe with 17pts.

LOL, definitely not!

 

How do you know what your p means?That's why I added a choice "It needs agreement with your p".

Well, yes, if your partner doesn't know the standard meanings of bids then you need to discuss.

 

rd bid 3S just after 2D and I thought he tried to show the later meaning(10-12) by that active tempo.

"Active tempo"? That has nothing to do with bridge unless you are cheating.

[Vampyr]

You can but I wouldn't recommend it (my recommendation would be 2NT.

 

This is a popular convention, but I wouldn't recommend trying this out on a pickup partner or in fact any partner without agreeing it.

[1eyedjack]

2S shows 3support with 6-10pts so 3S as preempt shows below 6pts(and 4support).

The conclusion (phrase following "so") does not necessarily follow from the premise (preceding "so"). Although you could play it that way you could alternatively have some overlap in strength but have more trumps to bid 3.

 

Your partner's description of the bid as "limit raise" does not help. It is a raise, no doubt about that. It is also a limited bid and non-forcing All pre-empts are. But most long-in-the-tooth players would interpret the term to mean a full-blooded game try (still limited and NF), ie one that here would go through a cue raise. Just semantics but not helpful.

 

BTW one advantage of starting with a cue bid is that you can show slam interest without committing beyond 4S. On this hand there is potential for responder to be a bit stronger and 5S would still be at risk. You might consider 4C over 3S. You can still RKCB later if encouraged by (say) 4D (but whether that is sensible depends on the 3S limit of course)

[Vampyr]

The conclusion (phrase following "so") does not necessarily follow from the premise (preceding "so"). Although you could play it that way you could alternatively have some overlap in strength but have more trumps to bid 3.

 

Yes, there would usually be some overlap, as with four spades you can't bid 3 with 6- points and cuebid with 10+ only.

 

And also of course you might bid 2♠ with 4 trumps and a flat hand, or with fewer than 6 points.

[jogs]

5=4=2=2. Regardless of the point range of 3♠, you shouldn't force the 5 level with your hand. I like 4♥. And definitely pass a 4♠ bid by pard.

[mr1303]

Incidentally, is there much future in a pre-emptive 3S bid when RHO has made a limited, weakish raise of his partner's suit? Surely mixed would be more appropriate here.

[fourdad]

"First error rules" is a mantra I live by at the table.

 

Hence, in spite of his rudeness, your partners comment that your first bid should be a TOX, planing on rebidding spades, is accurate.

 

imntbho, the focus of this entire thread is off.

 

How does the bidding proceed if your first bid is DBL?

 

In that scenario, it is easy not to get too high.

 

Focus on your own errors first.

[mgoetze]

"First error rules" is a mantra I live by at the table.

 

Hence, in spite of his rudeness, your partners comment that your first bid should be a TOX, planing on rebidding spades, is accurate.

"Support with support" is a mantra I live by at the table, hence the comment is not accurate.

[Vampyr]

"Support with support" is a mantra I live by at the table, hence the comment is not accurate.

 

Partner will support spades, won't he? Doubling and bidding a suit (even a good 5-bagger) is not an unreasonable action with 19HCP. Also this keeps hearts in the picture in case partner should show up with those.

 

I must confess that I didn't even look at the West hand, only the East hand. I normally don't look at all at hands which aren't embedded in the thread.

[helene_t]

Of course, "needs agreement with p" is always a correct answer, but maybe a more interesting question is what one would do without having discussed it with p.

 

I think 2♠ probably won't be misunderstood. 3♠ probably not either although maybe partner will expect me to have shortness somewhere when vulnerable. It wouldn't occur to me that partner might expect more than 5 points.

 

Pass is the call that is most likely to mislead imho, since partner might think that I don't have support so his spade honours are likely to be worth something in defense. If I pass and p later doubles their 6♦ contract I would be a bit uncomfortable.

[mgoetze]

Partner will support spades, won't he? Doubling and bidding a suit (even a good 5-bagger) is not an unreasonable action with 19HCP. Also this keeps hearts in the picture in case partner should show up with those.

 

I must confess that I didn't even look at the West hand, only the East hand. I normally don't look at all at hands which aren't embedded in the thread.

Ah, I didn't check back either so I misunderstood and thought East was meant to double and then correct to spades. Doubling with West is not quite my style but certainly a viable one.

[cheers OvO]

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners. And 2NT for responce would show a balanced hand with 13-15hcp.

 

In conclusion, what would be the most popular bid with 4support + 10-12pts? 2D? I got to know 3S when I was learing SAYC before bergen and the law.

[1eyedjack]

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits.

Are you playing strong jump overcalls, then, and/or direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)? For those (frankly the majority) who do not play those methods, double is the first move on such hands (including a balanced NT overcall that is too strong for immediate 1N). Is a double followed by new suit/NT a redundant set of sequences in your methods?

 

I think you owe some thanks to fourdad, for pointing out a popular treatment worthy of consideration, even it was not your style at the time.

[Stephen Tu]

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners.

It's extremely common to also use double with very strong (18/19 + HCP) hands without support for all suits, in order to limit the range of a simple overcall, intending to introduce spades in this case if partner doesn't bid a major, showing 5+ spades and 18+. This is basic bidding you apparently haven't learned. The scenario you are avoiding by doubling rather than overcalling is 1d-(1s)-all pass when you have game on. Because a one level overcall can be rather weak (7/8 pts), advancer is not going to respond with all 6/7/8 counts like he would if you had opened the bidding, because it's dangerous to jack up the bidding on a possible misfit when both players aren't very strong. Advancer might have a 2524 7 count and have no sensible bid over 1s other than pass, and then you have missed 4H.

 

And 2NT for responce would show a balanced hand with 13-15hcp.

People mentioning 2nt were advocating using it as a conventional raise in competition, analogous to using 2nt as a raise of opener, e.g. 1s-p-2nt, 1s-dbl-2nt. This is a treatment used by some subset of more advanced players. But definitely not something one should assume is in effect.

In conclusion, what would be the most popular bid with 4support + 10-12pts? 2D? I got to know 3S when I was learing SAYC before bergen and the law.

Most common is the lowest available cue bid. Jump raise is most popularly used as weak or mixed in competition. SAYC specifically is hard to assume anything though; officially from the pamphlet jump raise of opener is still invitational raise, while after an overcall is completely undefined. But only a small percentage of people claiming to play "SAYC" have actually read the pamphlet, so most probably assume jump raise = weak in comp, and cue is likely safest.

[Zelandakh]

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners.

Welcome to the BBO forums cheers. Perhaps and perhaps not. What would you call as West with a balanced 21hcp with 2 cards in a side suit? How about the OP hand with an extra ace?

 

The truth is that there are different agreements after an overcall. Most beginners play that a raise to 3 shows values similar to a limit raise over an opening bid. Sometimes that is in conjunction with a cue bid being a general game force, sometimes not. Most good intermediates and advanced players use the direct raise with a weaker hand (preemptive) and show a stronger raise using a cue bid. Some allow the cue bid also to include awkward GF hands. Other agreements are also possible - having the direct raise show constructive values (mixed) is sometimes done, especially when, as here, red versus white. It is also popular to use 2NT as a good raise, sometimes differentiating from a cue raise based on general strength but more usually on trump length or offensive to defensive ratio (ODR). Another idea that is increasingly popular in auctions such as this one is to use transfers.

 

What I want to show you with this is not that you should switch to complicated expert methods, even at international level the most common meaning for the direct raise is preemptive and for the cue to be a good raise, but rather that you should be aware that there is still a lot to learn. The correct bid depends on the system you have agreed. If you are playing with a pick-up partner then you have to try and assess their level. If it were available then a 2♦ advance would be suitable absent a particular agreement to use 2NT or the like for this sort of hand. Unfortunately RHO got there first so we need to advance with 3♦ instead on your theoretical hand. Still, we would have been committed to the 3 level after 3♠ anyway so it is not so bad really.

[fourdad]

Thanks to all except fourdad. Double would be take-out showing 3+cards on all the others suits. I think we have learned the most basic bidding when we were beginners. And 2NT for responce would show a balanced hand with 13-15hcp.

 

In conclusion, what would be the most popular bid with 4support + 10-12pts? 2D? I got to know 3S when I was learing SAYC before bergen and the law.

 

LOL!!!

You describe a TOX PARTIALLY...

 

In completion it is an Opening hand with support for the unbid suits OR a hand greater than a mere opener (16+), intending to bid again.

 

If you will look at the actual hand and consider that you X, then bid spades, you will see that the contract of 4♠ is simple to stop at.

Having said that, nothing trumps a partnership agreement and the only thing obvious here is that you and your partner had no clear agreement.

 

Neither your way, or what I describe are the ONLY ways.

[cheers OvO]

Are you playing strong jump overcalls, then, and/or direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)? For those (frankly the majority) who do not play those methods, double is the first move on such hands (including a balanced NT overcall that is too strong for immediate 1N). Is a double followed by new suit/NT a redundant set of sequences in your methods?

 

I think you owe some thanks to fourdad, for pointing out a popular treatment worthy of consideration, even it was not your style at the time.

 

Oh how nice your comments arehttp://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif Yes some bid double at that position, and I was reminded some prefer 2D with nice highers like my AKxxx AKxx although michael plays at least 5-5 generally. I missed the great idea from the beginning to the end！

[fourdad]

Are you playing strong jump overcalls, then, and/or direct seat cue of oppo suit is a general force (where it is now more common to show a 2-suiter)? For those (frankly the majority) who do not play those methods, double is the first move on such hands (including a balanced NT overcall that is too strong for immediate 1N). Is a double followed by new suit/NT a redundant set of sequences in your methods?

 

I think you owe some thanks to fourdad, for pointing out a popular treatment worthy of consideration, even it was not your style at the time.

 

As Cheers decided to delete my response to his lack of gratitude (LOL( it is apparent he is not interested in discussing any way but his way.