Overcall or double?

[beatrix45]

You are in second seat with no one vulnerable playing IMP pairs. RHO opens the bidding with 1H. You hold:

 

K97

J5

KT2

AK985

 

Do you pass, double or bid 2C? Why?

[inquiry]

Hi.

 

I overcall 2♣ primarily with the thought that if goes

 

(1♥)-2♣-(2♥)-Pass

Pass - ?

 

back to me I can reopen with a double.

 

I like 2♣ for three additional reasons. First, it is more descriptive than double in that doulbe tends (many play always, not me) four card spade suit. Second, I like my clubs and I would like to know if partner fits for them too. If WEST shows values (say iwth a negative double or a forcing 2♦ bid, my partner can even bid 2♠ with five spades and some club values. Also if my partner has not much at all, and they reach 3NT from my left hand opponents side, a club lead would be best for us in most cases as I have potential side entries in spade and diamonds.

 

Third, and finally, this isn't such a great hand, and if it goes,

 

(1♥)-DBL - (3♥)- ?

 

Partner might be tempted to bid a competitive 3♠ on some four card spade suits that get us into a a lot of trouble, and even some five card suit based upon the "LAW" thinking I have four spades for the same problem.

[Winstonm]

Double.

 

IMO, the controls are too good not to bid but I prefer the relative safety of the double rather than the unilateral 2C. If I bid 2C and it gets doubled for penalty, pard won't really have a pull with: xxx, Qxx, Jxxxx, xx and probably shouldn't bid over an undoubled 2C with A109xx, Qxx, xxx, xx. In fact, about the only time 2C is right IMO is if partner raises clubs.

 

WinstonM

[luke warm]

we had a somewhat similar thread where i chose double... but this hand is completely different... first, i *do* want a club lead if they buy the hand (for example, if lho somehow becomes declarer - on that other thread i didn't want a spade lead)... second, ben is very right when he says you can preserve the double for if they bid 2♥..

[mike777]

I guess passing here is too old school. (heavy Sigh)

1) Perhaps this may make placing the cards more difficult for declarer?

2) Perhaps we can still balance later with success?

3) Perhaps P will have better or find winning lead in 3nt if played by my LHO?

4) Perhaps my silence will induce some to overbid to no play game?

 

Advantage of bidding 2clubs now is:

1) May confuse the heck out of opp response bidding style.

2) Many times better to get in and out quick with this hand type.

3) Perhaps my partner needs all the help they can get with their opening leads.

[Guest Jlall]

X. Passing risks being stolen from too often these days with light openers and really light responses. 2C is much more dangerous than X. If it went 1H 2C p p X i would be shaking in my boots. The lead directional advantage is negligible... if they declare wont it usually be in hearts which i will be on lead against? As well as being safer, X is more flexible. We get all suits into play and don't risk playing a silly 2C contract. If partner bids spades over their bidding i wont be disturbed in the least, i have decent spades, good controls and a ruffing value and a potential source of tricks, all very helpful if it turns out to be a moysian. As for the specific auction 1H-2C-2H-p-p you will indeed be better placed if you overcall 2C, but why does the auction always go that way?

[Rebound]

It may not always go that way, but if it does you are ready. I, for one, would not even entertain the idea of doubling with this hand. You have a good 5-card suit. and strength enough to overcall. Why not just keep things simple and bid it? To me it doesn't seem dangerous at all. I deem the odds of playing in 2♣ to be rather low. Just my opinion, of course, but I think Ben was right on the money with his post. There's a lot of talk in these forums of partnership harmony. What's partner going to think if you can't find a bid of a 5-card suit headed by the AK?

[the hog]

Two possibilities - pass and X. Never ever 2C!

Why? You are playable in 3 suits and a double is the best way to get this across.

You only have 5C and they are not THAT good. Pd will overvalue Qx of C.

2C is a dangerous bid, you may go for a number.

 

I have no quibble with pass, and think that that my even be the best on this balanced hand.

 

"What's partner going to think if you can't find a bid of a 5-card suit headed by the AK? "

 

Maybe that you have learned how to bid competitively?

[Fluffy]

3+ cards on unbid suits, no other alternative, so double.

 

if you had 3316 it would become a problem. I would still double though.

[Rebound]

Two possibilities - pass and X. Never ever 2C!

Why? You are playable in 3 suits and a double is the best way to get this across.

You only have 5C and they are not THAT good. Pd will overvalue Qx of C.

2C is a dangerous bid, you may go for a number.

 

I have no quibble with pass, and think that that my even be the best on this balanced hand.

 

"What's partner going to think if you can't find a bid of a 5-card suit headed by the AK? "

 

Maybe that you have learned how to bid competitively?

LOL Touche. I bow to your greater wisdom :-)

[beatrix45]

:P

The hand that prompted this posting came up in a BBO individual tourney last night. The full layout:

 

............................... 83

................................AQ8742

................................QJ75

................................Q

QJ1065................................................K97

109.....................................................J5

A4.......................................................K102

10732..................................................AK985

 

................................A42

................................K63

................................9863

................................J64

 

It was played 28 times. Nine times N opened 2H and NS was the winner on six of these hands with an average gain of 1.24 IMPs for these nine hands. On five hands N passed as dealer losing on four of these with an average loss of 2.3 IMPs for the five hands. On thirteen occasions N opened 1H winning on eight of these hands with an average win of 0.5 IMPs for the 13 hands. One sport opened the N hand for 3H; finished in 4H off two, and lost 2.7 IMPs.

 

The posted question was whether E should double, pass or bid 2C on the thirteen hands where N opened 1H. On seven of these E bid 2C and on six E doubled. Evidently, the field was a divided as I was. Bidding 2C did work out better. The two club bidders gained IMPs on three of the seven hands with an average loss of 0.1 IMP. The doublers, and I was one, were trapped unless W got really active. They lost on four out of six hands with an average loss overall of 1.0 IMPs.

 

My auction went 1H - dbl - 2H - 2S - 3H - ???

 

It didn't look right to bid 3S, so I passed (the LAW and good defense) and it went all pass thus losing the board. Would anyone bid 3S with my cards? One pair did. How about 3S with the W hand? His pass was not an obvious error to me. Still, I got killed on a board that has normal suit splits. Who should take a charge?

 

Lesson?? Open with the N hand, and probably 2C is better with the E hand after a 1H opener.

 

Trixie

[mike777]

Good Grief!

 

Are you saying my choice is lose .1 imps or 1 imps?

 

I lose more going for refill of drink on BBO.

[Walddk]

1. Double (in an ideal world you have 4 spades. The world is not ideal).

 

2. Pass.

 

3. Nothing.

 

Roland

[luke warm]

the 2C bidders who passed 3H broke even with the doublers who also passed 3H.. so that's a wash... i don't see how any e/w allowed to play in 3 or even 4C lost imps

[han]

It seems a bit silly to draw conclusions from just one hand imo. Perhaps 2C worked slightly better on this hand, but this says absolutely nothing.

[Fluffy]

Even with this result it is pretty unclean, the guy holding 5♠ and 4♣ knew it was a double fit hand on 90% cases aprox, letting them play 3♥ is not really a winning bid. (I dunno abou the law, but even the law would tell you to bid 3♠ I think).

[beatrix45]

:P

 

Thanks a million to everyone for your input. I think we may have gathered enough opinions, analysis and data to draw whatever lessons this hand offers. Inquiry and others presented an excellent analysis in favor of 2C. jlall and others capably present the case for dbl - primarily that 2C is much more dangerous than dbl.

 

The problem on this particular hand was that EW had a tendency to stop bidding too soon. They have a nine card fit in clubs and a secondary 5-3 eight card fit in spades. NS has a nine card fit in hearts and a less useful 4-4 in diamonds. In short, there are lots (18) tricks in the hand. NS knows to go to the three level based on a 6-3 heart fit known from the git go.

 

NS has more of a problem. After 2C at least W knows about the nine card club fit, and her free 2S bid after over 2H advertises a five bagger, so E knows right away about the 5-3 spade fit. After my double, I couldn't even be sure that W free 2S bid over 2H showed more than four cards. Wouldn't my partner feel like a moron playing a 4-3 fit at the three level when there were only 16 tricks in the hand?

 

What it all boils down to is that this hand represents a whole class of hands where 2C is better. The other arguments are still valid. Anyway, in the future I'm going to bid 2 of my minor over 1H on these 3-2-5-3 or 3-2-3-5 hands and see how long it takes before I go for a telephone number.

 

Trixie

[mike777]

How about:

 

1H=P=2H=2S (OBAR)

3H=3S?

 

Easier to think of bidding 2s if you are used to your partner passing in direct seat with many balanced type decent hands as opposed to most here who always expect p to bid something with this hand.

[Guest Jlall]

The problem on this particular hand was that EW had a tendency to stop bidding too soon. They have a nine card fit in clubs and a secondary 5-3 eight card fit in spades. NS has a nine card fit in hearts and a less useful 4-4 in diamonds. In short, there are lots (18) tricks in the hand. NS knows to go to the three level based on a 6-3 heart fit known from the git go.

 

NS has more of a problem. After 2C at least W knows about the nine card club fit, and her free 2S bid after over 2H advertises a five bagger, so E knows right away about the 5-3 spade fit. After my double, I couldn't even be sure that W free 2S bid over 2H showed more than four cards. Wouldn't my partner feel like a moron playing a 4-3 fit at the three level when there were only 16 tricks in the hand?

the person with 5 spades also knows about the spade fit. They have an easy 3S bid over 3H. Pard made a takeout double so has short hearts, and 3+ spades. with 5 spades, 2 eharts and a 5224 shape why not just compete to 3S with that hand? I would consider you to rethink your analysis of what went wrong here after X.

[cherdano]

(I dunno abou the law, but even the law would tell you to bid 3♠ I think).

Geez, Fluffy, you should really read up about the LAW. It's the best excuse there is partner goes down after you raised his balancing overvall, or when they make their doubled partscore after your penalty pass :o :P :D

[Winstonm]

I can't imagine NOT competing to 3S with the 5 card suit and the west hand - not only do you anticipate a 9-card fit with the double but there are absolutely no wasted values whatsoever; however, over 1H-2C-2H-3C-3H you are stuck.

 

WinstonM

[Dragan]

I play italian "swiming" double so i had no problem with this hand... So I double always.

 

For details see 1d-defansive system by Keneth Lindsday.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=21&q=...ter.html&e=7152

[P_Marlowe]

Double.

 

This will improve your chances of winning

the partscore battle.

If your side doesnt end up declaring,

you will be the one most likely on lead

against a heart contract or against a NT contract,

so the lead directing value of a 2C overcall

is not that great.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[flytoox]

I vote for dbl. I can accept 2C. Not pass.

[flytoox]

I can't imagine NOT competing to 3S with the 5 card suit and the west hand - not only do you anticipate a 9-card fit with the double but there are absolutely no wasted values whatsoever; however, over 1H-2C-2H-3C-3H you are stuck.

 

WinstonM

I cannot agree more.