double fit

[wank]

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imps

[lamford]

I would bid 4S. Slam might make opposite some 15 counts, but no room to explore. 4H rates to go down most of the time, but may be only 300. A sim suggested that we were making slam 24% of the time, and rarely going off in 4S.

[BillPatch]

no comment

[nige1]

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wank says "imps"

 

I rank your calls

1. 5♦. CUE. Your have at least an Ace extra and the 5-level should be safe.

2. 4♠. S/O. A bit wet, especially if opponents have their values in ♥.

3, 4N. RKC. An overbid.

4. 5♥. CUE. But bypasses your ♦ control.

5. 5♣ NAT. Might be even more confusing.

6. Double. Pessimistic unless conventional.

[/hv]

[WesleyC]

I think your choice depends on the style of partner's 3S bid.

 

Once West overcalls, my preferred style is to use the jump to 3S to show roughly 12-15 HCP and a shapely hand - basically a hand that always plans to compete to 3S. In that context, 4S is obvious.

 

However if you prefer to keep the 3S at full strength through the overcall you can probably make a case for at least a mild slam investigation.

[karlson]

Basically agree with Wesley, but I would just go low with 4♠ even if you play 3♠ as fairly strong.

[MrAce]

However if you prefer to keep the 3S at full strength through the overcall you can probably make a case for at least a mild slam investigation.

 

And how are we going to make a mild slam invitation and a strong slam invitation and slam force depending on specific controls, with different hands in this auction? I agree with you that we may have a lay down slam. Just as Lamford said, we simply do not have the space to investigate it.

[WesleyC]

And how are we going to make a mild slam invitation and a strong slam invitation and slam force depending on specific controls, with different hands in this auction? I agree with you that we may have a lay down slam. Just as Lamford said, we simply do not have the space to investigate it.

 

IF partner's 3S promised (15)16-18 HCP, then 5H feels about right. Partner should appreciate that we're mostly looking for trump quality and sharp cards...

[Fluffy]

opponents happy bidding suggest a bad break, but that is probably clubs, not spades.

 

We need 4 bullets in front or AJ10 combo and some luck to make slam, I think with many of those hands partner would have already stretched to 4♠, I will settle myself for 4♠.

 

If acting 5♦ is clearly the bid to move on.

[MrAce]

IF partner's 3S promised (15)16-18 HCP, then 5H feels about right. Partner should appreciate that we're mostly looking for trump quality and sharp cards...

 

You did not answer my question. Or more likely I asked it poorly.

[Cyberyeti]

And how are we going to make a mild slam invitation and a strong slam invitation and slam force depending on specific controls, with different hands in this auction? I agree with you that we may have a lay down slam. Just as Lamford said, we simply do not have the space to investigate it.

 

Well most of the good hands from partner would go through 3♥ rather than 3♠ if I was playing normal-ish systems (I have a GF 2N rebid available as well playing what I actually play), so I would know he was 12-15 ish 5+-4+. That still doesn't preclude AKxx, xx, xx, AKxxx but I'd be prepared to give up on slam as that hand is a pretty narrow target to hit.

 

If partner can have a better hand, you'd better be playing double as non penalty.

[MrAce]

Well most of the good hands from partner would go through 3♥ rather than 3♠ if I was playing normal-ish systems (I have a GF 2N rebid available as well playing what I actually play), so I would know he was 12-15 ish 5+-4+. That still doesn't preclude AKxx, xx, xx, AKxxx but I'd be prepared to give up on slam as that hand is a pretty narrow target to hit.

 

If partner can have a better hand, you'd better be playing double as non penalty.

 

Where is this information mentioned in OP?

[Cyberyeti]

Where is this information mentioned in OP?

 

It isn't, that's why I gave an either-or answer

[nige1]

And how are we going to make a mild slam invitation and a strong slam invitation and slam force depending on specific controls, with different hands in this auction? I agree with you that we may have a lay down slam. Just as Lamford said, we simply do not have the space to investigate it.

How you invite depends on methods and style but I think you can include mild slam-tries. For example, here, you might agree ...

• 4♠ = S/O. To play.
• 4N = RKC. Taking control. You know what to do over likely responses.
• 5♣/♦/♥ = CUE. Mild invite (unless you go on over 5♠).
• 5♠ = ART. Worry about ♥ control.
• Double = ART. Sort of MAXIMAL. Instead of penalty, you might agree that this as a mild slam try, which would free up the other calls and work well on this hand..

[MrAce]

It isn't, that's why I gave an either-or answer

 

Ok thank you Cyber.

[wanoff]

I'd rule out 4♠ and 4nt.

5♦ seems pointless since however you move, you must have the ♦A.

5♥ is a fair description.

[KurtGodel]

And how are we going to make a mild slam invitation and a strong slam invitation and slam force depending on specific controls, with different hands in this auction? I agree with you that we may have a lay down slam. Just as Lamford said, we simply do not have the space to investigate it.

We are a passed hand, I don't think our hand could be that much better than this, it's fairly rare we have a slam force here (not impossible). I would kind of like to know what we are playing, if partner can be 15-17 balanced here I don't think I am moving, if partner is showing a shapely minimum then I am not moving, if partner is showing spades and clubs with a good hand I think I'll try 5♦, we must be worth something with all our controls and working queens, I can't believe that we are going down in 5, and having passed originally partner will know the kind of hands we will be moving on.

[Zelandakh]

5♦ seems pointless since however you move, you must have the ♦A.

Could you expand on your logic here. Would ♣AK be a much worse hand for you than in diamonds?

[wanoff]

Could you expand on your logic here. Would ♣AK be a much worse hand for you than in diamonds?

 

If you're talking about another hand with ♣AK instead of the diamonds, then of course you'd start by cuebidding clubs and then hearts.

I can see I'm in a minority here but without the ♣/♠ A or K you will only move 4♠ with the ♦A. Besides if you cue diamonds, how will partner find your heart control without some fancy method (which I don't possess).

[jogs]

Assuming North is 4-4 in the black suits, both black suits break 3-2 about 50% of the time. Assuming rational opponents due to their willingless to interfere expect both blacks suits to break 3-2 much less often than expected.

[wanoff]

I would bid 4S. Slam might make opposite some 15 counts, but no room to explore. 4H rates to go down most of the time, but may be only 300. A sim suggested that we were making slam 24% of the time, and rarely going off in 4S.

Possibly a butchered sim. Need to know the nt range and how often 5♠ is down.

[helene_t]

Suppose p has AJxx-Kxx-x-AJxxx. This is very pesimistic since many would find this hand too weak, and we give him vasted values in hearts. Even then, we will stop in 5♠ after asking for keycards and we will make that more often than not I think.

 

On the other hand, opps' bidding suggests that they have some shape so we could suffer a club ruff or trumps could split 4-1.

 

So I dunno. If I make a slam try it will be RKC, not 5♦.

 

BTW the sim should tell us (assuming the choice is between 4NT and 4♠) how often

- 5♠ is one down and we miss two keycards.

- 6♠ makes and we miss one keycard.

[wank]

i made a move. i bid 5d which i thought must show something like this - one couldn't be bidding at the 5 level as a passed hand without a heart control imo. yes you could do off at the 5 level but it seemed to me you'd miss more making slams by bidding 4s than you'd get to 5s down 1.

 

just for the record, partner had kj8x xx jx akjxx which you may or may not consider to be a 3 spade bid, and 5s was a lucky make (everything breaks). 4hx which i hadn't even considered tbh would have been 500 and win 2.

[lycier]

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imps

 

4♠?

I can't accept this weak bid,this is not a good description.

 

4N to ask RKCB?

No,I think 4N ask bid don't resolve this hand problem.

5♦?

If opener have too many wasted hcp in ♥,6♠ contract will be very in danger.

 

5♠?

Here 5♠ is not to ask ♠ trumph quality,its exact meanings is to ask whether secondary control in 4th suit ♦.

 

I will take more aggressive bidding - 5♥.

5♥= I have a singleton in ♥ or sometimes secondary control. Of importance,the meanings of 5♥ is to give partner a chance of evaluations on the hand :

If unlucky opener have too many wasted hcp in ♥,sign off at 5♠,otherwise 6♠ contract will be hopeful.

[gszes]

I would bid 4S. Slam might make opposite some 15 counts, but no room to explore. 4H rates to go down most of the time, but may be only 300. A sim suggested that we were making slam 24% of the time, and rarely going off in 4S.

 

The real issue is not 4s but how often does 5s fail vs making slam. If 5s fails say 15% and makes slam 24% it would seem very risk/reward favorable to try for slam.