5NT as pick a slam / invite to 7NT

[jimmyg010]

Apologies if this does not belong in the expert-class forum.

 

I was reading about 5NT pick a slam recently and wondered how this might affect the (admittedly much rarer) cases where you want to force to 6NT and invite to 7NT.

 

E.g. P opens a 15-17 1NT and you hold a flat 20 count with no 4 card major. Playing 5NT pick a slam, how would you find out if partner is a maximum for 7NT?

 

Thanks.

[mgoetze]

First of all, 5NT pick-a-slam is mainly a convention for contested auctions. I know Josh recently introduced it as a tool for very simple uncontested auctions in his lecture but that's not how I learned it originally.

 

Secondly, just bid 2♠. What, you don't play this as clubs or range ask? Why not? ;)

 

Finally, with 20 HCP opposite 15 HCP 7NT will make 67% of the time double-dummy anyway, but we can pretend you were asking about a flat 19 count instead.

[Stephen Tu]

Apologies if this does not belong in the expert-class forum.

 

I was reading about 5NT pick a slam recently and wondered how this might affect the (admittedly much rarer) cases where you want to force to 6NT and invite to 7NT.

 

E.g. P opens a 15-17 1NT and you hold a flat 20 count with no 4 card major. Playing 5NT pick a slam, how would you find out if partner is a maximum for 7NT?

 

5nt pick a slam applies when there is a choice between different suits or between a suit & NT. It doesn't really make sense for 1nt-5nt to ask opener with a balanced hand to pick a suit, with no information about the responder's hand shape. It's possible to construct hands where suit contract takes an extra trick, but that argues for a much slower approach utilizing the bidding space.

 

So with standard agreements you use only with auctions like after 1nt-2d-2h-5nt, asking for choice between 6h/6nt, or something like 1nt-2c-2h-5nt, choosing between 6s/6nt since opener can still have spades (with heart fit just bid 3s or whatever to confirm fit and FG then proceed from there). Still use 1nt-5nt to invite 7 on power.

[kenrexford]

My favorite convention is Oh ***** 5NT. It is aN unusual 5NT call that says someone forgot something, so you pick the strain and level on general principles, on what you think you know. Very important convention.

 

1nt p 5NT is difficult to read as OS5NT. However, the best solution is to figure out what sequence Responder usually gets confused on, figure out what holding he probably has, and act accordingly. My guess might be 54 in the minors, 31 in the majors, with whichever holding 3S shows.

[Vampyr]

Do not understand the above post. Anyway, in my experience 5NT pick-a-slam is almost always between two suits, rarely between a suit and NT.

[diana_eva]

Do not understand the above post. <...>

 

Must be super expert stuff :P

[BillPatch]

Must be super expert stuff :P

Agreed!

[BillPatch]

First of all, 5NT pick-a-slam is mainly a convention for contested auctions. I know Josh recently introduced it as a tool for very simple uncontested auctions in his lecture but that's not how I learned it originally.

 

Secondly, just bid 2♠. What, you don't play this as clubs or range ask? Why not? ;)

 

Finally, with 20 HCP opposite 15 HCP 7NT will make 67% of the time double-dummy anyway, but we can pretend you were asking about a flat 19 count instead.

Perhaps we can improve our odds slightly of avoiding a losing 7NT with the 20 HCP hand with Gerber to check whether they have an A.

[kenrexford]

Agreed!

Very high level. Those who use mundane bids don't need OS5NT. The convention occurred to me in a strong 1C sequence with s series of asking bids. My partner eventually bid 5S. At this point, having thought I was asking and had placed the contract already, I realized that something terrible had occurred some point. I now knew nothing, and I didn't even know what trumps were. 5NT as "bid something smart, as I have no idea" seemed brilliant. Hence, this was agreed.

 

I mean, consider 4NT. Is it RKCB, Exclusion, quantitative, or natural in some obscure, opponents involved sequence? Do you often have two voids, or whatever 5NT actually shows for you, or do you more often panic because you don't know what is happening? Real people need a lifeline bid. Hence, OS5NT.

[dboxley]

Very high level. Those who use mundane bids don't need OS5NT. The convention occurred to me in a strong 1C sequence with s series of asking bids. My partner eventually bid 5S. At this point, having thought I was asking and had placed the contract already, I realized that something terrible had occurred some point. I now knew nothing, and I didn't even know what trumps were. 5NT as "bid something smart, as I have no idea" seemed brilliant. Hence, this was agreed.

 

I mean, consider 4NT. Is it RKCB, Exclusion, quantitative, or natural in some obscure, opponents involved sequence? Do you often have two voids, or whatever 5NT actually shows for you, or do you more often panic because you don't know what is happening? Real people need a lifeline bid. Hence, OS5NT.

 

I like it! There must be more of these treatments out there. When I was in college a good friend of mine and his girlfriend played the 'insult cue bid'. It occurred when the opponents cue bid her suit and she cue bid theirs in return. It would be alerted and explained as "She feels insulted that you bid her suit so she bid yours." I don't think they invented it but it was part of their arsenal.

 

Does anyone else know any?

[WellSpyder]

I like it! There must be more of these treatments out there. When I was in college a good friend of mine and his girlfriend played the 'insult cue bid'. It occurred when the opponents cue bid her suit and she cue bid theirs in return. It would be alerted and explained as "She feels insulted that you bid her suit so she bid yours." I don't think they invented it but it was part of their arsenal.

 

Does anyone else know any?

Not exactly the same, perhaps, but it reminds me of what might be called the "insult ace ask". This occurred in a (non-competitive) auction reported by clamatius, which ended like this:

 

4C (how may aces do you have? I think they were playing Rainbow Gerber!) - 4x (some number of aces)

4y ("not enough" - sign-off) - 4N (OK, how may aces do you have?)

5x (some number of aces) - 6y (sounds OK to me!)

 

The contract made, of course....

[Jinksy]

I like it! There must be more of these treatments out there. When I was in college a good friend of mine and his girlfriend played the 'insult cue bid'. It occurred when the opponents cue bid her suit and she cue bid theirs in return. It would be alerted and explained as "She feels insulted that you bid her suit so she bid yours." I don't think they invented it but it was part of their arsenal.

 

Does anyone else know any?

 

4♦ as an off-the-rails ask with step responses: 4♥ = 'I'm totally lost. Please let me out of this', 4♠ = 'I'm fairly confident that I have the general idea, but don't try anything too clever', 4NT = 'I know exactly what's going on in the auction so far, carry on'.

 

I suspect the really top level players might invert the sequence, as a form of fast arrival.

[kenrexford]

I like it! There must be more of these treatments out there. When I was in college a good friend of mine and his girlfriend played the 'insult cue bid'. It occurred when the opponents cue bid her suit and she cue bid theirs in return. It would be alerted and explained as "She feels insulted that you bid her suit so she bid yours." I don't think they invented it but it was part of their arsenal.

 

Does anyone else know any?

 

Not exactly on point, but another good convention is similar to a "stolen bid" defense, more properly in this instance called a "steal the bid" defense. An example auction (we are NV, opponents V):

 

(1♣)-P-(1♥)-1♠

 

(2♠)-4♠-(4NT)-?

 

The 2♠ call shows heart support, and 4NT is RKCB for hearts. I now can pass if I want to, or I can answer RKCB myself. Or, I can use DEPO if I want (double even, pass neutral or odd). How many people have a three-way response structure to RKCB? Granted, it is a three-way response structure to RHO's RKCB call, but still.

 

 

 

[lamford]

Do not understand the above post. Anyway, in my experience 5NT pick-a-slam is almost always between two suits, rarely between a suit and NT.

I hope that we play 5NT(pas)-6X-6S as a choice between 6S and 6NT. Or maybe it should be a GS-try in spades ... help, Ken. I will note it for discussion. Also 5NT(pas)-6X-6NT must be an invite to 7NT.

[Vampyr]

I hope that we play 5NT(pas)-6X-6S as a choice between 6S and 6NT. Or maybe it should be a GS-try in spades ... help, Ken. I will note it for discussion. Also 5NT(pas)-6X-6NT must be an invite to 7NT.

 

Um yeah.

 

I was just commenting that normally when there is a choice between a single suit and notrumps, the issue is usually decided by one partner, after Old Black or some cuebids, will just bid the NT slam or pull the suit slam bid by partner.

[Vampyr]

I like it! There must be more of these treatments out there. When I was in college a good friend of mine and his girlfriend played the 'insult cue bid'. It occurred when the opponents cue bid her suit and she cue bid theirs in return. It would be alerted and explained as "She feels insulted that you bid her suit so she bid yours." I don't think they invented it but it was part of their arsenal.

 

Refreshing to see a pair not at all interested in results! Bridge should be fun.

[gnasher]

Also 5NT(pas)-6X-6NT must be an invite to 7NT.

 

Only if there's no suit below X which might have been a playable spot.

[Zelandakh]

Hello jimmy and welcome to the BBO forums. Some of the regulars are having a little fun with you, probably because of your choice of forum. As has been pointed out though, 5NT as pick a slam does not apply as a direct response to a natural 1NT opening. Instead start by introducing your suits - you can always bid 5NT later if it still seems like a good idea.

[mgoetze]

5NT as pick a slam does not apply as a direct response to a natural 1NT opening.

Reading this expert treatise you could be forgiven for thinking it does though.

 

http://webutil.bridgebase.com/v2/news_fetch.php?id=2831

[mgoetze]

Reading this expert treatise you could be forgiven for thinking it does though.

 

http://webutil.bridgebase.com/v2/news_fetch.php?id=2831

If this were the I/A forum, incidentally, I would probably dare to ask, how useful is it really for opener to suggest a 4-card minor on a quantitative sequence? JDonn's example of 1NT-4NT-5NT-6♣-6♦-6NT seems like an awful lot of information leakage.

[Zelandakh]

Reading this expert treatise you could be forgiven for thinking it does though.

Seems silly to me. With the 4-4 minors hand we can just continue 5♣ and look for a fit Baron style. A better meaning for 5NT is 5♦-4♣, which is otherwise a little awkward if we want bypassing 5♣ to deny 4 clubs.

[mgoetze]

Seems silly to me. With the 4-4 minors hand we can just continue 5♣ and look for a fit Baron style. A better meaning for 5NT is 5♦-4♣, which is otherwise a little awkward if we want bypassing 5♣ to deny 4 clubs.

Having recently had the auction 2NT-4NT-6♦-6NT, where partner failed to see that playing in my SIX card diamond suit would be best, I'm not so sure it is silly.

[jimmyg010]

Hello jimmy and welcome to the BBO forums. Some of the regulars are having a little fun with you, probably because of your choice of forum. As has been pointed out though, 5NT as pick a slam does not apply as a direct response to a natural 1NT opening. Instead start by introducing your suits - you can always bid 5NT later if it still seems like a good idea.

 

Thanks, and that's fine - it's been enjoyable reading both the constructive and not so constructive responses :)

[Zelandakh]

Having recently had the auction 2NT-4NT-6♦-6NT, where partner failed to see that playing in my SIX card diamond suit would be best, I'm not so sure it is silly.

What are you gaining? You could have bid 6♦ anyway with a 6 card suit and bid 5♦ followed by 6♦ with a 5 card suit. The sequence 1NT - 4NT; 5♦ - 5NT thus becomes a waiting bid, usually with 3 diamonds, to see if Responder has anything else to say. This allows you to have your co-operative auctions searching for 4-4 fits at the 5 level rather than 6 level without giving up anything else. It is also closer to the more general rules for a quantitative 4NT bid and entails having to work out fewer special cases. This is why it seems silly to me - adding more complexity with no apparent gains whatsoever. And you will know I do not mind a complicated sequence or two...

[BillPatch]

Not that I am afraid to ask, for surely I am not expert-class, but I share the judgment of Josh Donn and Marty Bergen that finding the proper contract outweighs the awful information loss, so I won't ask.