Zelandakh Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 One possibility would be for all of the players to go and boo or shout "Shame" at the relevant moment. That might get some attention. Have all of the Polish matches been videotaped? I would hope so and also hope that they will be made publically available and subsequently worked through carefully by various teams around the world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zasanya Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest.Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 The WBF allowed Poland to play. The team has played well to reach final. No allegations against the players concerned. So why make an issue out of it now?Because some think it is etched in stone that BZ cheated and most are biased not least because allegations against other pairs proved successful. If you read some posts in this thread you could get the impression that most cheating pairs are still undetected in top level Bridge. Of course there must be a good reason why some (myself included) can not compete at the top level. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Because some think it is etched in stone that BZ cheated and most are biased not least because allegations against other pairs proved successful. If you read some posts in this thread you could get the impression that most cheating pairs are still undetected in top level Bridge. If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn. However, investigations are being carried out through BW, and these results will be made public. So we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shyams Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn.While I agree that the pair should be suing, I strongly suspect the lawyers at WBF have ensured it cannot be sued. I recall reading/hearing that the WBF have a right to withdraw the invitation without reason (almost as if after one is invited to a party, RSVP's, turns up at the venue, and is told one is no longer welcome) As for Polish Bridge Federation, all their formal communications indicate they disagree completely with the WBF stance. So, implicitly or explicitly, they have maintained that the accused pair is innocent. If anything, the lawsuits may get aimed at Boye et al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 If they didn't cheat they should be preparing lawsuits against the WBF and PBO for ruining their reputation by not disclosing why their invitation was withdrawn. However, investigations are being carried out through BW, and these results will be made public. So we will see.If you go to court, many expect to get justice. What they get instead is a sentence. Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest. Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge.Yes they did, most players signed a petition against Klukowski Gawrys entering the team with no time to prepare against their system. You are right that current players are free of oficial allegations for signalling like their former teammates. No more, no less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I do not think any NBO or any player protested before the matches started. Not even a token protest.Does not seem right to make a noise now. And one has to admit that the polish team has played extremely good bridge.I agree, the time to object was before the event started. To play along and then make noise when they win, is poor form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I agree, the time to object was before the event started. To play along and then make noise when they win, is poor form.What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post.I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zasanya Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Yes they did, most players signed a petition against Klukowski Gawrys entering the team with no time to prepare against their system. You are right that current players are free of oficial allegations for signalling like their former teammates. No more, no less.I understand from reliable sources that Klukowsky Gawrys are not playing 'their' system. They had to play with a system which was already submitted by some other pair.This makes their performance even more praiseworthy. I may be wrong but I believe Zmud and Ballicki were considered the best polish pair. So this team has shown that even without their supposedly best pair they can still perform. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 What do you suggest? Should they just have sit out so that Poland would win the BB by default? See Fluffy's post. I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it."Basically what agua said. If you have an objection, you should make it up front, even if it is not actionable. That way you have full credibility if you later choose to boycott awards, or whatever. I originally crossposted with Fluffy. So I see now that some did object in advance. Also I accidentally repped you both while trying to click multiquote. heheh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinidad Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I may be wrong but I believe Zmud and Ballicki were considered the best polish pair. That is not my understanding. I thought Gawrys and Klukowski were considered to be better than BZ (but that BZ were on the sponsored team that qualified). Look, I congratulate the current Polish team for reaching the Bermuda Bowl final under awful circumstances. That is quite a feat. I also think that the WBF made a big mistake, withdrawing the invitation for BZ. Either they should have let the Poles play as they were. Should it turn out that BZ were cheating in Opatija, then you solve that problem at that point in time. (And if there is not sufficient evidence, there wouldn't be a problem.)Or they should have "uninvited" the entire team. If BZ were cheating in Opatija, then the Polish qualification for the BB should be void. We are in this mess now. Let's realize that the Polish players are in between a rock and a hard place. For the moment, they qualified legitimately for the BB (no one has been disqualified). Their sponsor wants them to play. The people in Poland are convinced that BZ are innocent. At this moment, and during the whole tournament in Chennai, the Poles have only had losing options. They cannot possibly do it right. As an aside and for the record: Do I believe that BZ are guilty? Yes, I do. (They are either guilty or incredibly stupid.) But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated. Rik 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I didn't read that into Bill's post. What I read was, "Object, don't object, whatever -- before the event starts. Then get over it."What evidence do you have that the players and NBOs did not object before the event started? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 LOL @ acting like people are protesting now because they are in the final. Enormous pressure was put on the WBF, the Polish NBO, and the Polish players to not play, and to not be allowed to add a third pair. There were formal petitions and there was a lot of back channeling. People were outraged that they chose to play, outraged that the WBF allowed them to play, and outraged that they were allowed to add a third pair. Get real if you think this is just all of the sudden sour grapes. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhantomSac Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 That is not my understanding. I thought Gawrys and Klukowski were considered to be better than BZ (but that BZ were on the sponsored team that qualified). Umm, no? Where do you guys come up with some of this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Enormous pressure was put on the WBF, the Polish NBO, and the Polish players to not play, and to not be allowed to add a third pair. There were formal petitions and there was a lot of back channeling. People were outraged that they chose to play, outraged that the WBF allowed them to play, and outraged that they were allowed to add a third pair. I am glad to hear that. Sounds like they are doing things the right way. Yes, perhaps an awards protest is in order now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 While I agree that the pair should be suing, LOL this is jumping the gun. There is a fair chance they are guilty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated. Well. Compare them to the players who dropped out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Yes, perhaps an awards protest is in order now. It's going to be ever so much fun watching the contortions surrounding any kind of awards protest. What with the changes in the regulations after the whole Shanghai brouhaha and the changing of the opinions now that "real" Americans will protesting against foreigners rather than the Bush administration, I can't wait to see what comes next. (In all seriousness, I am rooting for Poland just because it promises maximum carnage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 But let's not make the current Polish players in Chennai guilty by association. I could easily imagine that they will hand over their medals when it is officially clear that BZ have cheated. You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations. I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.) I am hoping to be proven wrong... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanoi5 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 It's going to be ever so much fun watching the contortions surrounding any kind of awards protest. What with the changes in the regulations after the whole Shanghai brouhaha and the changing of the opinions now that "real" Americans will protesting against foreigners rather than the Bush administration, I can't wait to see what comes next. (In all seriousness, I am rooting for Poland just because it promises maximum carnage) The desire for 'I told you so' and 'I was always right' is strong with this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations. I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.) I am hoping to be proven wrong... I have not. I have not read the article or the responses and debate. If someone would care to summarize both sides, great. --- to be honest there has been so much gossip, mean comments, etc I am not sure where all of these cheating allegations, results of the allegations, stand. I bet most if not all of the ACBL members do not. If anyone would care to summarize, great. Per this bbo forum it seems many posters are at the point of protest of the new world champs, and most of us( acbl members) do not know why such an extreme position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 to be honest there has been so much gossip, mean comments, etc I am not sure where all of these cheating allegations, results of the allegations, stand. I bet most if not all of the ACBL members do not. If anyone would care to summarize, great. Per this bbo forum it seems many posters are at the point of protest of the new world champs, and most of us( acbl members) do not know why such an extreme position. The following video provides a good introduction to the topic and shows a bunch of the most damning hands 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 You must not have read Jassem's "article" about the B-Z allegations. I have a lot of sympathy for bridge players defending their team mates in the face of not yet substantiated allegations or rumours - as long as it's clear they are approaching the matter in good faith, and their desire is for the truth to come out. In my mind it's 100% clear that Welland and Auken were acting in good faith when they defended P-S before the confession. And it's 100% clear that it's not what Jassem did. (I could forgive him for having a sudden complete loss of hand evaluation skills and completely failing to be objective in evaluating these 6 hands. But to conclude by stating "...this report should end the B-Z case" is so utterly ridiculous for someone of his intellect that I can't believe it's just unconscious bias affecting his judgement.) I am hoping to be proven wrong...You are wrong and you will not be proven right even should it turn out that BZ did cheat. Rarely did I read so much malicious nonsense as in these few sentences quoted. Rainer Herrmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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