Cheating Allegations

[diana_eva]

Vampyr, you do realize that you are arguing in favour of letting them win a world championship first?

 

 

I also prefer to keep the discussion generic. There are no facts so far, all we know is some respected pros are putting their neck out there in a public accusation of cheating, forcing the authorities to act faster. Even if they are right, it's still inappropriate IMO for posters here to start trashing known pros (or anyone else obv) before they've been officially investigated.

[Vampyr]

Vampyr, you do realize that you are arguing in favour of letting them win a world championship first?

 

I have not argued anything at all. I have observed that Brogeland's actions will prove counterproductive to a timely investigation.

[Vampyr]

Cut me a little slack when parsing my posts: I get the impression that every time I post something, you look through it striving to find something that you can blow up, distort and score points in whatever mind game you think we are playing. I really don't understand this. I have never met you. We don't have any real life history. You seem to have an image of me in your mind, which is different from who (I think) I am.

 

LOL he has just done it to me too!

[cherdano]

Mike, what do you expect me to do?

 

While anger, frustration and loathing of those who cheat can be difficult to swallow, surely the better approach would have been to alert the ACBL not only of the cheating but of one's idea of how they were doing it.

 

The only way I can read this is to say that you don't think Brogeland informed the ACBL of his idea of how F-S were cheating.

 

Sorry I wouldn't have made the remark about "patronizing" if I had read your sentence as saying Brogeland is "extremely talented".

 

In any case, I think we simply disagree on this. You think it was wrong of Brogeland to make these public accusations of cheating. If his case is indeed as strong as he thinks it is, then I think he was right to do so. The ACBL has plenty of opportunity of catching them, having been informed of suspicion of cheating by this pair years ago (admittedly with allegations that were probably much less specific). Meanwhile, there is an upcoming world championship.

 

In my mind, two world championship won by cheats within 2 years would be a bigger problem for bridge than a public accusation of cheating from a world-class player.

 

As for Brogeland getting punished - I'd bet if he knew he'd get punished by the ACBL with, say a suspension of half a year, he'd still do what he did. He has much more to lose than to win - unless he considers making the game cleaner a win by itself.

 

Having said all this - I can understand Mike's view about public allegations. In fact, I'd frown a situation where it would be acceptable to make public accusations of this sort unless the accuser themselves has something to lose.

[billw55]

I know essentially nothing about this before today. I don't know the people involved, and I certainly do not play bridge at a high enough level to judge actions of top pros as unreasonable.

 

Still, the arguments about BB's risk to himself are persuasive. OK. But when I go to bridge winners and read the threads - searching for BB's posts - I must admit it sounds odd. Why all the drama about the jack of spades? This isn't a poker movie. It's real. Walking the dog on a career ending accusation seems like the wrong procedure to me.

 

He may be right of course. But either way he is a little weird. (again, just from these few posts.)

[gwnn]

I also prefer to keep the discussion generic. There are no facts so far, all we know is some respected pros are putting their neck out there in a public accusation of cheating, forcing the authorities to act faster. Even if they are right, it's still inappropriate IMO for posters here to start trashing known pros (or anyone else obv) before they've been officially investigated.

What's the problem with this? They are known pros, as you said. Are football fans also supposed to say "I think your favourite team has a player that dived yesterday in the match against my favourite team!"? In this case, it takes about 3 seconds to google the names. Avoiding naming them at this point can serve no purpose other than making this discussion unparseable and awkward all around, don't you think?

[diana_eva]

What's the problem with this? They are known pros, as you said. Are football fans also supposed to say "I think your favourite team has a player that dived yesterday in the match against my favourite team!"? In this case, it takes about 3 seconds to google the names. Avoiding naming them at this point can serve no purpose other than making this discussion unparseable and awkward all around, don't you think?

 

I was thinking more that I'd hate to see people start posting hands or accusations, of course it's pointless to pretend the names aren't known at this point. I shd have phrased it better I guess.

[gnasher]

Vampyr, you do realize that you are arguing in favour of letting them win a world championship first?

Only a transnational one. They're not playing in the Bermuda Bowl.

[lamford]

I was thinking more that I'd hate to see people start posting hands or accusations

It is only the hands that can allow the rest of the world to decide and I would welcome hands being posted. However, there is a restriction on naming the players on here, so it would first require the moderators to lift that restriction.

[diana_eva]

It is only the hands that can allow the rest of the world to decide and I would welcome hands being posted. However, there is a restriction on naming the players on here, so it would first require the moderators to lift that restriction.

 

Why would it be appropriate for the rest of the world to decide?

[Vampyr]

Why would it be appropriate for the rest of the world to decide?

 

Because they are already being tried in the court of public opinion.

[kuhchung]

Good job eagles, you opened the floodgates!

[mikeh]

Mike, what do you expect me to do?

 

 

 

In any case, I think we simply disagree on this. You think it was wrong of Brogeland to make these public accusations of cheating. If his case is indeed as strong as he thinks it is, then I think he was right to do so. The ACBL has plenty of opportunity of catching them, having been informed of suspicion of cheating by this pair years ago (admittedly with allegations that were probably much less specific). Meanwhile, there is an upcoming world championship.

 

I may simply be ignorant of matters of which you are aware, but in terms of pre-Spingold behaviour, I was under the impression that as with the racecars and Katz-Cohen back in the day and no doubt others there was a lot of whispering but no official complaint. If so I am not being at all critical of those who suspected cheating and did nothing, since the ACBL and, I assume, the WBF seem by their policies to make reporting suspicion problematic and few want to be the ones making such allegations without good evidence.

 

So my possibly mistaken impression was that Brogeland started the official ball rolling by his complaints post Spingold. If that is the case, then in my view, as explained above, he is flat out misguided in his well-intentioned desire to speed up the process.

 

Even if I am wrong, and less-specific complaints were made (less specific, that is, than whatever Brogeland observed or deduced), still it seems that he DID make specific allegations and he ought to let the wheels turn, even tho they seem to him to be turning too slowly.

 

Note that the alleged offenders are not playing the BB. I don't think anyone really sees the Transnationals as a 'real' world championship. It is sort of a consolation prize for the non-BB teams, and a way of raising revenue for the real events, as well as being a fun event. Of course, for the pros it is a way to make money and for the clients it may well be good for their ego, but it isn't a BB title.

 

In fact, imo, the transnationals would be a wonderful opportunity to gather evidence. It is, iirc, a long round-robin, so I would have assumed that, absent being alerted to the issue, the offending pair would display lots of evidence of wrong doing, such that they could be caught before the KO stage.

[cherdano]

Well, according to Lotan Fisher the were "monitored by directors and kibitzers for years. And they found nothing." I would assume that such monitoring was based on receiving complaints.

(http://newinbridge.com/news/2015/may/fisher-schwartz-not-bermuda-bowl )

 

Also, there were quite a few posts on BW about cheating from top players prior to Brogelands' revelations that sounded like they had been arguing for a while with authorities whether a pair could be convicted of cheating even if the method of cheating could not be established. In retrospect it sounds like they had been arguing the case of F-S behind the scenes for a while.

[PhilKing]

I may simply be ignorant of matters of which you are aware, but in terms of pre-Spingold behaviour, I was under the impression that as with the racecars and Katz-Cohen back in the day and no doubt others there was a lot of whispering but no official complaint. If so I am not being at all critical of those who suspected cheating and did nothing, since the ACBL and, I assume, the WBF seem by their policies to make reporting suspicion problematic and few want to be the ones making such allegations without good evidence.

 

So my possibly mistaken impression was that Brogeland started the official ball rolling by his complaints post Spingold. If that is the case, then in my view, as explained above, he is flat out misguided in his well-intentioned desire to speed up the process.

 

Even if I am wrong, and less-specific complaints were made (less specific, that is, than whatever Brogeland observed or deduced), still it seems that he DID make specific allegations and he ought to let the wheels turn, even tho they seem to him to be turning too slowly.

 

Note that the alleged offenders are not playing the BB. I don't think anyone really sees the Transnationals as a 'real' world championship. It is sort of a consolation prize for the non-BB teams, and a way of raising revenue for the real events, as well as being a fun event. Of course, for the pros it is a way to make money and for the clients it may well be good for their ego, but it isn't a BB title.

 

In fact, imo, the transnationals would be a wonderful opportunity to gather evidence. It is, iirc, a long round-robin, so I would have assumed that, absent being alerted to the issue, the offending pair would display lots of evidence of wrong doing, such that they could be caught before the KO stage.

 

I know two people who made official complaints backed up with multiple hands at separate events, and these are not isolated instances. Whether the authorities concerned (EBL and WBF) carried out a thorough investigation or not is a matter of speculation. :ph34r:

 

As an aside, I was only involved in one of these events and did not regard the hands as conclusive, but I do know whether or not I would fold against Boye's alleged Royal Flush.

[mikeh]

Well, according to Lotan Fisher the were "monitored by directors and kibitzers for years. And they found nothing." I would assume that such monitoring was based on receiving complaints.

(http://newinbridge.com/news/2015/may/fisher-schwartz-not-bermuda-bowl )

 

Also, there were quite a few posts on BW about cheating from top players prior to Brogelands' revelations that sounded like they had been arguing for a while with authorities whether a pair could be convicted of cheating even if the method of cheating could not be established. In retrospect it sounds like they had been arguing the case of F-S behind the scenes for a while.

I thought it was common, and had been for many, many years, to monitor all tables in the late rounds of major events. That may have changed with the recent trend towards vugraph coverage. Anyway, it's fair to say that all top pairs nowadays play a lot of bridge with others watching to some degree or another. I didn't read the quote about being monitored as an acknowledgment of being monitored specifically as opposed to as part of the normal course for major events. I may be mistaken, of course.

[hrothgar]

I know two people who made official complaints backed up with multiple hands at separate events, and these are not isolated instances. Whether the authorities concerned (EBL and WBF) carried out a thorough investigation or not is a matter of speculation. :ph34r:

 

In one of the BW threads, Sabine Aiken stated that that multiple complaints had been made to the WBF, however, the WBF was unwilling to act unless the accusers could also demonstrate how the pair in question was passing information.

 

In a day of cheap consumer electronics, the later demand seems short sighted at best

[kuhchung]

Is there a reason why Boye is teasing us?

[MrAce]

If you haven't or not willing to go there and read thousands of page, I can try to summarize you.

 

I have been heavily involved in debates in BW. Basically the discussion and thousands of posts in BW are focused around;

 

Boye's side focus on

• Boye's past reputation
• Amount of risk he is taking in the case of failing to deliver the evidence.
• Close to a decade of suspicion about the alleged pair by every top player I have relation to or just learned in BW (actually suspicion is understatement, most of them in their mind are convinced)
• Some of the alleged discipline actions taken by Israeli Federation in the past.
• Suddenly the pair deciding not to play in BB, although they claim it is
• Vacating 3 titles that they already won, in 2014-2015 Reisinger-Spingold-Swiss all national titles. (sane person, even under heavy frustration, hardly gives up 3 titles 2 of them being huge, just because they lost 1 title)
• Broken system which is focused on catching cheaters redhanded just like coughing doctors. On camera, matching coughs with shortness, broken code etc. Happy ending. The argument that says "if we set the bar this high, we will have to wait decades to catch cheaters and there are a lot of them. And NBOs, ACBL, WBF, EBL has to take more effective measures.
• Poorly bid,played,defended hands, decisions which ends up in success. Which will be put on test by Kit Woolsey method. (although if that is only what Boye has in his hand, god help him)
• Three wrong claims during the match by alleged pair, benefitting their side, two of which was spotted at the table and corrected, one of them slipped. (remember the match was won by 1 imp even after the appeal)

Alleged pair's side focus on

• The shape and form of how the accusation made is wrong
• Timing was wrong
• Asking for evidence
• Repeatedly mentioning that Boye put the 2 young players and their livelihood and profession into big risk. And convicted them in the public eye already.
• Biased BW and their biased staff (Eugene)
• Boye is jealous and sour grape for losing the appeal and the Spingold.
• Why did Boye not mention any of these while playing with them in same team. He even played as partner with one of them in an event.
• Being skeptical about validity of Kit's method.

These are the most common comments, along with a lot of sarcastic, irrelevant replies, and side articles about how to catch cheaters at the top level without having the hard evidence such as how the info was delivered/received, which info was transferred, breaking the code. A lot of people sharing their experience of hands with the alleged pair, trying to come up with a conviction while other side says this is nothing. From my perspective, TOO MANY people trying to make analysis of these hands who are not even close the level of bridge being discussed there, and should have kept their silence.

 

I hope this helps if you do not want to go through days of painful reading, if you haven't already.

[MrAce]

Is there a reason why Boye is teasing us?

 

Why should we care?

 

He is either teasing us or not.

If he is not teasing and he really got them, we should be happy. If he is indeed teasing us, what he will lose is much more valuable than the 3 titles he already gave up.

We have no money in this game. He went ALL IN. He is the one who will lose everything. So imho we should let the guy play his hand as best as he can, in his own style.

[kuhchung]

But I wanna knooooooow

[PhantomSac]

Some really incredibly naive posts itt

[billw55]

Why should we care?

 

He is either teasing us or not.

If he is not teasing and he really got them, we should be happy. If he is indeed teasing us, what he will lose is much more valuable than the 3 titles he already gave up.

We have no money in this game. He went ALL IN. He is the one who will lose everything. So imho we should let the guy play his hand as best as he can, in his own style.

His own style is flamboyant grandstanding. He seems to be relishing his performance. I find this distasteful, even if he is right.

[PhantomSac]

lol yep that's boye flamboyant grandstanding! obviously he just has lost his mind because he lost by 1 to them so he has decided to vacate all of his previous wins (and his client who paid massive amounts of money for that also agreed to). That theory is brilliant and makes a lot of sense.

 

Perhaps he has to do this in a flamboyant way for the genius administrators to do anything but cover their own asses. These guys have been monitored for 1 year by these geniuses. Every bid every play, hidden cameras, the works. And yet they have done nothing and will continue to do nothing unless you know maybe someone talks about this in a "flamboyant" way.

 

How long do you think "whispers" and whatever have to happen before it is decided that you must be monitored for every board. Including paying someone to do that, etc etc. Lol at the earlier estimate of "well it might take a year for the ACBL to do anything!" A year? hahahaha. Try 10. Unless you know maybe someone does something drastic.

 

What history does Boye have of grandstanding? he's been in the game a long time, what history of drama does he have? Maybe you guys should think a little and let him play his jack of spades.

[PhantomSac]

And full disclaimer I am not accusing anyone of cheating, just thinking hypothetically because I am too weak to risk my job by being suspended and risk getting sued!

 

That's what the current system is. Everyone is afraid of getting sued and losing their job and being barred. No one can say anything. You have a guy vacating his wins and risking all of that and you think he's just grandstanding for attention or because he lost by 1. It's brilliant.