4NT over 4D

[wombatica]

With

 

♠ K3

♥ xx

♦ AKQ109xxx

♣ Q

 

In second seat, vul, I opened 4D. Before shooting me for that (and I actually defend it on some level), what should I have bid after partner responded 4NT? Should I have assumed it was Blackwood? Is 4NT ALWAYS Blackwood?

 

I generally interact in beginner's forum (or squat there), but I am hoping for some more diverse opinions.

 

Thanks,

 

[1eyedjack]

In my opinion, opposite a non-passed hand partner, 4m openers should be narrowly defined, such that partner should be able to place the final contract without further enquiry.

 

So for me, 4N would be to play.

 

Then your only problem comes if your 4D opener was outside the parameters of that hopefully narrow agreement.

[BillPatch]

Firing squad first; comments later.

 

2nd position is the worst to deviate from the tried and true well defined preempts with strong offense-defense ratio(ODR).

After the execution, read the comments, and drag yourself back to the beginner-novice area. Do not post another question up

here for a week, or being shot will be the least of your worries.

 

As far as I can recall all the ACBL Encyclopedias and all my books on preempts define 4NT as an asking bid, either for aces or key cards.

Use whichever you normally use. Even my British preempt book agrees, so this treatment is probably common in acol land as well as ACBL land,

the opinion of the previous Briton notwithstanding.

[Finch]

I play a 4NT response to 4m as natural, but I have explicitly agreed this with my partner.

[BillPatch]

I play a 4NT response to 4m as natural, but I have explicitly agreed this with my partner.

The question I ask is not what you play, but what do others in the acol empire play? Although another expert

British vote for natural may help Wombatica, God rest his soul.

[Zelandakh]

Hello wombatica and welcome to the BBO forums. First of all, 4♦ is a poor choice here. Game is not at all unlikely after RHO passes and your most likely game is 3NT. Having begun with 4♦, 4NT is Blackwood of some form without discussion. Which form is going to depend on general agreements and some possible rebids would be 5♦ (one ace); 5♠ (2 key cards + ♦Q, regular RKCB) or 5NT (2 key cards + ♦Q, modified RKCB).

 

That 4NT in this spot would be Blackwood by default does not mean that 4NT is always Blackwood though. For an obvious example, a 4NT response to a 1NT opening is not Blackwood of any form. Over preempts, a common agreement is for 4♦ to be Blackwood after a 3♣ or 4♣ opening and 4♣ to be the ask after a 3♦, 3♥ or 3♠ opening. That might be something to discuss with a regular partner once you feel confident enough to add some additional complexity. At novice level, a decent, if sub-optimal, rule is that 4NT is always natural after a natural NT bid from partner and always Blackwood after partner's natural suit bid (unless this obviously makes no sense). As you progress you will encounter many more situations where you will want to use 4NT as something other than Blackwood - again, this is something to discuss with a regular partner at some point.

[gwnn]

I'd take 4NT as to play without discussion. Depends a bit on who I'd play with but yes.

 

Same goes for:

 

(4m)-4NT.

 

1M-(4m)-4NT is trickier.

 

1♣-(4♦)-4NT is also tricky as 4NT is probably best used as an unspecified ♣ "slam try" (not asking for aces, just showing that you have a good 5♣ bid).

 

I agree with the others that I hate the 4♦ opening.

[lycier]

I am wondering why you opened 4♦,obviously 4♦ should be a opening mistake,whatever non-vul or Vul at any seat.

[PhilKing]

Without discussion I would assume RKCB.

[BillPatch]

Without discussion I would assume RKCB.

With a visitor from the novice board who only mentions Blackwood, you assume too much.

 

Are you from the acol empire? I am doing an informal poll.

[BillPatch]

I am wondering why you opened 4♦,obviously 4♦ should be a opening mistake,whatever non-vul or Vul at any seat.

Wombatica at great risk has come from the novice board seeking enlightenment. Obviously he would not have made an obvious mistake if he had your knowledge. Enlighten him!

[steve2005]

Ok, I';ll give it a stab as to why 4♦ is wrong?

Two likely contracts 3N and 6♦, 3N is impossible to get to now, 6♦ partner wont expect you to have such a good hand so will likely miss, even 5♦ may be missed.

In second seat one of the opponents have passed so it is a good chance this is your hand. So you may be able to buy it for a cheaper contract like 3♦. It is also possible partner has a major suit of their own and hand belongs in 4M.

This wouldn't be a horrible bid in 3rd seat where partner has passed so could be opponents hand.

[BillPatch]

I'd take 4NT as to play without discussion. Depends a bit on who I'd play with but yes.

 

Same goes for:

 

(4m)-4NT.

 

1M-(4m)-4NT is trickier.

 

1♣-(4♦)-4NT is also tricky as 4NT is probably best used as an unspecified ♣ "slam try" (not asking for aces, just showing that you have a good 5♣ bid).

 

I agree with the others that I hate the 4♦ opening.

Sorry Dutch Acol is not part of the acol empire. Wrong Queen. So this doesn't count in my poll.

The question before us was not whether we hate the opening, but whether this obscenity deserves the death penalty for the first offense.

[BillPatch]

Ok, I';ll give it a stab as to why 4♦ is wrong?

Two likely contract 3N and 6♦, 3N is impossible to get to now, 6♦ partner wont expect you to have such a good hand so will likely miss.

In second seat one of the opponents have passed so it is a good chance this is your hand. So you may be able to buy it for a cheaper contract like 3♦. It is also possible partner has a major suit of their own and hand belongs in 4M.

This wouldn't be a horrible bid in 3rd seat where partner has passed so could be opponents hand.

Thank you. The other questions Wombatica asked were about Blackwood, in particular the auction 4♦(pass)4NT. I mm polling the acol countries in particular, in case Wombatica plays acol. Wombats are not native here, I suspect they are or were native to the Empire.

[PhilKing]

With a visitor from the novice board who only mentions Blackwood, you assume too much.

 

Are you from the acol empire? I am doing an informal poll.

 

Sorry - it was a foolish mistake on my part. When Wombatica said, "I am hoping for some more diverse opinions", I took that to mean he/she wanted some more diverse opinions.

 

It is quite probable that Wombatica does not play RKCB, but if one plays on BBO or in a random club in Australia, there is a non-zero chance that they mean it as RKCB, so it behooves one to respond accordingly.

 

Anyway, it's probably best to leave the sarcasm to those that are still part of the Commonwealth. :P

[gwnn]

Sorry Dutch Acol is not part of the acol empire. Wrong Queen. So this doesn't count in my poll.

The question before us was not whether we hate the opening, but whether this obscenity deserves the death penalty for the first offense.

Who cares about your poll?

 

Also, if you consider Queen Máxima somehow inferior to Elizabeth II, more power to you I guess.

[BillPatch]

Who cares about your poll?

I didn't care, until about a minute ago I looked up "wombat". It is indigenous to "Oz", the giant island south of New Guinea. They play acol there. There is therefore a high chance that wombatica is aussi and plays acol. Therefore the need for updated info on acol has become more urgent. The brave wombatica was willing to face being shot in order to achieve bridge enlightenment. The least those in the British Commonwealth can do is answer the poll.

 

I apologize to those who find my flippant humor offensive, especially the remark about the two royal majesties. There are technical reasons that Dutch Acol has developed separately from acol in the English speaking countries, and that is the reason I rejected the Dutch entry.

[gwnn]

Rejected the Dutch entry for what? Who cares? Am I supposed to appeal to your mercy to include my entry to your poll? For all I care, you can include my entry twice, or deduct a point for my choice, or disregard it, as long as you don't keep me informed whilst your decisions change. Who asked you about your poll? wombatica can speak for him/herself, no need for your ridiculous remarks. There's no standardized way to play 4m-p-4NT in any Acol system, with or without the Dutch in front. For your information, I think Dutch Acol is a ridiculous, dreadful, awful system, no better than Swiss, English, or Haitian Acol. We're just talking about 4D-p-4NT and you're being unpleasant for the sake of being unpleasant. I don't find any of your garbage offensive but that doesn't mean that I don't feel like it was a waste of my time to read it or reply to it.

[gwnn]

In unrelated news,

[tommyst]

As in most cases there are no "correct" answer and this case makes it even worse as very few would choose that opening bid... In topscore you might play 4nt as to play but at imps nope.

[helene_t]

Probably most club players would take it as Blackwood or rkc or whatever they play. With a partner who has a better theoretical understanding eg someone from this forum I would assume it to be natural.

 

Acol or not is obviously irrelevant but maybe votes from hogs, rabbits, chimps, walruses and humans should be excluded from wombat-only polls.

 

If you want to use it as a slam try maybe shortness ask is more useful than rkc. Or maybe asking about the length of the suit.

 

Playing 4nt as natural maybe you could play 5c as a slam try.

[1eyedjack]

In topscore you might play 4nt as to play but at imps nope.

If you are bidding 4NT to play you would be doing so not because it outscores 5D but because you judge it likely to be the last making game. In that case it is every bit as relevant in IMPs.

[sfi]

It looks like I'm in a minority, but I think 4NT as natural is a rather poor agreement even compared to RKC (although clearly there are improvements that can be made here). At IMPs, the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards.

 

At matchpoints there is more going for it, but partner knows it's matchpoints and has chosen to bypass 3NT with the opening bid. So that reduces the likelihood of 4NT as natural working, and it is still useful for slam purposes.

 

Luckily, the two regular partners I have so far polled agree with me.

 

What is the counterargument?

[gwnn]

It looks like I'm in a minority, but I think 4NT as natural is a rather poor agreement even compared to RKC (although clearly there are improvements that can be made here). At IMPs, the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards.

 

At matchpoints there is more going for it, but partner knows it's matchpoints and has chosen to bypass 3NT with the opening bid. So that reduces the likelihood of 4NT as natural working, and it is still useful for slam purposes.

 

Luckily, the two regular partners I have so far polled agree with me.

 

What is the counterargument?

You are not really in a minority, we are quite evenly split.

 

The counterargument to

 

"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems [to you] to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards"

is

"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong does not seem [to me] to be smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards."

I guess you could add "game before slam" as well if you like. I like having a bunch of available strains to play in rather than a bunch of slam tries. I don't really mind missing a few slams by just raising to 5♦.

 

As in a lot of these bridge-related arguments, it just boils down to personal preference and it's tough to concretely quantify or build convincing syllogisms.

[sfi]

The counterargument to

 

"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong seems [to you] to be much smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards"

is

"the number of hands where 4NT is right and 5D is wrong does not seem [to me] to be smaller than the number of hands that want to know about trump quality via key cards."

I guess you could add "game before slam" as well if you like. I like having a bunch of available strains to play in rather than a bunch of slam tries. I don't really mind missing a few slams by just raising to 5♦.

 

As in a lot of these bridge-related arguments, it just boils down to personal preference and it's tough to concretely quantify or build convincing syllogisms.

 

Fair enough. A well-placed simulation would probably go a long way to answering it, but meh.

 

I agree with game before slam, but IMO partner has already answered the question of strain.