And now?

[kenberg]

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Choose your call, using methods of your choice.

 

Our methods:

 

So far:

The 1S over the double was natural forcing, it did not promise five.

Partner is allowed to raise the 1S to 2S on a three card holding but will use his judgment.

2D ostensibly shows six, but he has to bid something.

 

And now, choices at the second turn:

2H would be natural and forcing.

3D would be natural, encouraging, non-forcing

4C would be a splinter.

Pass would be a pass

These four choices seem to me to exhaust the possibilities.

 

 

But feel free to use whatever methods you would usually use.

[kenrexford]

2H. What now?

[eagles123]

3d

[kenberg]

I will hold off a bit (not long) on what happens next so as to keep the North hand a mystery.

[BillPatch]

3♦. 2♥ over emphasize the hand for major contracts, NT(I have only a fifth round stopper in ♠), and does not limit the hand, Pity if the only thing partner cares about is a heart stopper.

[StevenG]

3♦

[kenberg]

Ok, I also went with 3D which so far has the majority vote, which partner passed. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't crazy. I'll give you the full deal.

 

 

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If I were to bid 2H instead of 3D, as per KR, partner would no doubt bid 3NT. There are nine tricks on top. I imagine 3NT would have scored pretty decently (3D not so well :) ), but it does make 6D. Maybe it is not so easy to find 6D but twelve tricks are easy with spades and diamonds splitting so 5D making 6 will beat 3NT making 3.

 

So a follow up question: 6D is cold if diamonds are 2-1 and spades 4-3. Six diamonds, club ace, two club ruffs, two hearts, and you have the entries to set up and cash the fifth spade. Is this good enough odds to make you want to be there? If so, how do you get there? A 4C splinter would probably do it but I gather that is seen as extravagant and, since I bid 3D, I agree.

 

Timing could get tricky if W holds all three diamonds but 6D might well still make on a spade or club lead.

[StevenG]

I come from an Acol background, so things are different, of course, but I'd expect partner to bid 3♥, asking for a stop, after my 3♦.

[kenberg]

I come from an Acol background, so things are different, of course, but I'd expect partner to bid 3♥, asking for a stop, after my 3♦.

 

 

There is a theory out there that, since both clubs and hearts are an issue, 3H shows a heart stop and 3NT shows a club stop. The idea being that with two suits we show the stop we have, but when we are at 3D we cannot show a club stop by bidding it. And, if no one has a heart stop, you may still be ok if neither opponent has five hearts. If responder has the spade ace and the club king, you have nine tricks after they are done with their hearts.Take out doublers might have five hearts, but usually four. I need to discuss with partner just what he does with one suiot stopped but not the other. Well, he passed. But we could think about some other choices.

 

I am interested in how others see this problem of getting to 3NT when we need stoppers in hearts and clubs.

[akwoo]

I cannot understand North's pass, unless you are playing in an extremely weak field. (If you really think no one is getting to 3N, then it might be worth just trying to make more tricks than everyone else in diamonds. But, honestly, should you be trying to win in that weak of a field?)

 

It is match points. 3N is worth bidding if there is a 50% chance it will make.

 

North has no way to explore, so it will be 50% based on the info he or she has now.

 

At that point in the bidding, does anyone seriously think that there is more than a 50% chance that opponents can run 5 hearts (or 4 hearts and the A♠) off the top?

 

In fact, if partner was barred from the bidding after making his or her 1♠ bid, I would shoot out 3N right there!

[kenberg]

I cannot understand North's pass, unless you are playing in an extremely weak field. (If you really think no one is getting to 3N, then it might be worth just trying to make more tricks than everyone else in diamonds. But, honestly, should you be trying to win in that weak of a field?)

 

It is match points. 3N is worth bidding if there is a 50% chance it will make.

 

North has no way to explore, so it will be 50% based on the info he or she has now.

 

At that point in the bidding, does anyone seriously think that there is more than a 50% chance that opponents can run 5 hearts (or 4 hearts and the A♠) off the top?

 

In fact, if partner was barred from the bidding after making his or her 1♠ bid, I would shoot out 3N right there!

 

It was not the strongest field in the world but my lho was a successful pro that I first encountered some 25 years ago so it was not the weakest field you can imagine either.

 

This pro is not the most easy going person in bridge and I remember an early time when he was playing with a truly hopeless client. As I watched him boiling over, trying his best (his best was not very good) to not show it, I thought to myself "This is a job I never want to have". His client of the other day was a different matter entirely.

[MrAce]

Ok, I also went with 3D which so far has the majority vote, which partner passed. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't crazy. I'll give you the full deal.

 

 

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If I were to bid 2H instead of 3D, as per KR, partner would no doubt bid 3NT. There are nine tricks on top. I imagine 3NT would have scored pretty decently (3D not so well :) ), but it does make 6D. Maybe it is not so easy to find 6D but twelve tricks are easy with spades and diamonds splitting so 5D making 6 will beat 3NT making 3.

 

So a follow up question: 6D is cold if diamonds are 2-1 and spades 4-3. Six diamonds, club ace, two club ruffs, two hearts, and you have the entries to set up and cash the fifth spade. Is this good enough odds to make you want to be there? If so, how do you get there? A 4C splinter would probably do it but I gather that is seen as extravagant and, since I bid 3D, I agree.

 

Timing could get tricky if W holds all three diamonds but 6D might well still make on a spade or club lead.

 

Diagnosing the problem is important. wrong diagnose leads to wrong solutions.

 

North should have rebid 3♦, not 2. I would have rebid 3 NT had my diamonds been 7 cards.

[kenberg]

Diagnosing the problem is important. wrong diagnose leads to wrong solutions.

 

North should have rebid 3♦, not 2. I would have rebid 3 NT had my diamonds been 7 cards.

 

After which?: 3H-3NT-4D ( a slam try with a heart control) or maybe 3H-3NT-3C? After 3H-3NT I assume that any pull is a slam try but I also need to be clear that it's a slam try in diamonds. As we play, raising 3D to 4D is not ace asking, it just sets trump. but the two stiffs are a big deal in being able to take twelve tricks on our combined 23 count.

[BillPatch]

If I were opener I would rebid 3♦ if my lho had not made the TO double. The double makes me suspect he has major values, so I still discount the ♠Q and just bid 2♦. The next round I would bid 3NT WTP? The TO double suggests 4 or less frequently 3 so they usually can run at most 4 hearts. 9 tricks in NT look as easy as 11 in diamonds. Would expect very few bidders to find the diamond slam. CTC scores 10 6♦, 10 5♦, 6 3NT, 1 partials. ATB 100% opener for final pass.

[MrAce]

If I were opener I would rebid 3♦ if my lho had not made the TO double. The double makes me suspect he has major values, so I still discount the ♠Q and just bid 2♦. The next round I would bid 3NT WTP? The TO double suggests 4 or less frequently 3 so they usually can run at most 4 hearts. 9 tricks in NT look as easy as 11 in diamonds. Would expect very few bidders to find the diamond slam. CTC scores 10 6♦, 10 5♦, 6 3NT, 1 partials. ATB 100% opener for final pass.

 

How could I disagree more. This hand is even much better for 3 NT when LHO doubled and pd bid 1♠ freely. Your worry should be ♥ suit however LHO did not bid 1♥, he doubled. RHO did not bid 2♥. At worst, even if your pd has xx ♥ the odds are that they are split 4-4 is extremely high. Never EVER trash the whole value if a single honor. You would be amazed about the capabilities of singleton honors in your hand that opponents bid and I listed that in the past. For example just look at all 4 hands. That stiff Q disables them from cashing their 4 winners in spade suit.

 

But even if you trash totally the value of stiff Q, I would still bid 3♦. After this post of yours, I decided to check the value of the hand in KnR with and without the spade Queen.

 

With the stiff Queen =17.55

Without the queen=17.35

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[BillPatch]

How could I disagree more. This hand is even much better for 3 NT when LHO doubled and pd bid 1♠ freely. Your worry should be ♥ suit however LHO did not bid 1♥, he doubled. RHO did not bid 2♥. At worst, even if your pd has xx ♥ the odds are that they are split 4-4 is extremely high. Never EVER trash the whole value if a single honor. You would be amazed about the capabilities of singleton honors in your hand that opponents bid and I listed that in the past. For example just look at all 4 hands. That stiff Q disables them from cashing their 4 winners in spade suit.

 

But even if you trash totally the value of stiff Q, I would still bid 3♦. After this post of yours, I decided to check the value of the hand in KnR with and without the spade Queen.

 

With the stiff Queen =17.55

Without the queen=17.35

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

One fifth of a point is the proper value for that stiff Q, both before and after one round of bidding.

Your other arguments have convinced me of the superiority of the 3♦opener's rebid, with or without said Q. You have won a convert,

 

Still, after responder's rebid of 3 hearts at match points, I see no normal alterative to continuing 3NT, which responder should accept as a final contract, so we will still end up barely above average.

[MrAce]

One fifth of a point is the proper value for that stiff Q, both before and after one round of bidding.

Your other arguments have convinced me of the superiority of the 3♦opener's rebid, with or without said Q. You have won a convert,

 

Still, after responder's rebid of 3 hearts at match points, I see no normal alterative to continuing 3NT, which responder should accept as a final contract, so we will still end up barely above average.

 

Oh I was not suggesting that we should find the slam. I agree with you that it is tough slam to find. As a matter of fact, until Kenberg replied to me I did not even check what the best contract was. But I think with this hand we should at least reach to game.

[Cyberyeti]

Oh I was not suggesting that we should find the slam. I agree with you that it is tough slam to find. As a matter of fact, until Kenberg replied to me I did not even check what the best contract was. But I think with this hand we should at least reach to game.

 

And game should have been reached with the auction as it was, N seems to have taken a stupidly pessimistic view of his hand "15 points with a stiff Q, better pass 3♦" rather than thinking 7 tricks. While I don't like the suit quality, I'd have kicked off with 2♠ over the double showing for us any 5♠/4♦ and maybe 4+ points at this vul (ours is a 4+ card diamond). I'd also have rebid 3♦ with the N hand.

 

I think 3♥ over 3♦ should be stop asking and that's what I'd bid.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, a good rule of thumb seems to be to select the forcing bid among options when you are uncertain as to how good your hand is. This hand turns out to have four covers in diamonds. It is not strong enough for a splinter. Bidding out pattern with a forcing 2H enables flexibility without commitment.

[lycier]

If 3♦ can be regarded as a forcing raise and only forcing a round, many confusions will no longer be a problem.

[kenberg]

FWIW, a good rule of thumb seems to be to select the forcing bid among options when you are uncertain as to how good your hand is. This hand turns out to have four covers in diamonds. It is not strong enough for a splinter. Bidding out pattern with a forcing 2H enables flexibility without commitment.

 

Partner suggested that I might have bid 2H and I later thought maybe so. Trump has not been set and partner will expect four hearts in my hand. Ths could cause problems but the opponents have been silent, I hae a stiff club, chances are against partner holding four hearts. But he could. If he raises 2H to 3H I could try 4H in our 4-3 fit, or I could try 4D and hope he gets the message. I didn't do it but I thought later it was a reasonable alternative to 3D.

 

 

If 3♦ can be regarded as a forcing raise and only forcing a round, many confusions will no longer be a problem.

 

This has an upside and a downside. It would have helped here, although I think partner could have bid agani even though 3D was not forcing. The downside? Well, if 3D is forcing then, when partner takes another call over my 3D, he could still be a rock bottom minimum for his 2D rebid. When 3D is not forcing then, if he bids again, I know he is at the least not a minimum.

 

 

Oh I was not suggesting that we should find the slam. I agree with you that it is tough slam to find. As a matter of fact, until Kenberg replied to me I did not even check what the best contract was. But I think with this hand we should at least reach to game.

 

 

There are some interesting mp issues: I did not check the other scores but my guess is that 5D making 6 scored well, since 9 tricks seem to be the limit in NT, absent a gift.

Also, I think the odds are subtle. If we could be sure that every pair is in either 5D or 6D then I think that 6D is preferred if we see all NS cards( but not EW). It should be a better than 50-50 shot. But wait, some may play this in 3NT. . If 6D makes then we get the same matchpoint against a 3NT bidder that we would get with 5D making 6, while if 6D fails by a trick then we go from a tie with the NTrumpers (had we stopped at 5) to a loss. So probably 5D is a pretty good choice for the contract. The slam must be a good bet, but one can imagine it failing.

 

 

 

I found this to be a common sort of hand, but interesting.

[BillPatch]

Partner suggested that I might have bid 2H and I later thought maybe so. Trump has not been set and partner will expect four hearts in my hand. Ths could cause problems but the opponents have been silent, I hae[sic] a stiff club, chances are against partner holding four hearts. But he could. If he raises 2H to 3H I could try 4H in our 4-3 fit, or I could try 4D and hope he gets the message. I didn't do it but I thought later it was a reasonable alternative to 3D.....

 

There are some interesting mp issues: I did not check the other scores but my guess is that 5D making 6 scored well, since 9 tricks seem to be the limit in NT, absent a gift.

Also, I think the odds are subtle. If we could be sure that every pair is in either 5D or 6D then I think that 6D is preferred if we see all NS cards( but not EW). It should be a better than 50-50 shot. But wait, some may play this in 3NT. . If 6D makes then we get the same matchpoint against a 3NT bidder that we would get with 5D making 6, while if 6D fails by a trick then we go from a tie with the NTrumpers (had we stopped at 5) to a loss. So probably 5D is a pretty good choice for the contract. The slam must be a good bet, but one can imagine it failing.

 

I found this to be a common sort of hand, but interesting.

2♥ is a reasonable alternative. It works well here, where partner made a reasonable underbid with his 2♦ rebid, and then seems to have lost his mind when you encouraged. If partner is frequently such a Milquetoast, perhaps such a distortion as 2♥ is justified to encourage partner. But 2♥ has other drawbacks in addition to the heart shortness you noted above. Culbertson wrote that one should underbid, not overbid with an underbidder, in hopes of a cure. But Culbertson was an incorrigible optimist. More seriously your bid shows 5 spades and encourages a raise if partner has 3, which you do not want. Also, your bid is unlimited, and partner might mistakenly overbid to explore alternative strains.

 

The hand is more interesting at IMPs, where the lure of larger rewards on slam hands and the lesser demerits for playing a minor game contract would have encouraged more slam tries. At matchpoints regardless of the choice opener takes with his first rebid, all roads lead to 3NT, except for a few cases of mind omission. I hope your partner recovers quickly.

[case_no_6]

3D. You have 11 dummy points - encouraging (invitational) and not forcing. This is a textbook hand for the bid. Anything else is just masterminding.

[Jinksy]

Agree with Timo. As S I'd bid 3♦, but I shouldn't have had the chance. N's 2♦ is a crime, IMO (and I'm hopelessly timorous in constructive auctions).

[jodepp]

I understand the 2♦ rebid while not agreeing with it.

 

Now for something a little off-topic ...

 

Maybe Responder's 2NT should be a one-round force on this auction. Opener's continuations need to be discussed, but a forcing-one-round 2NT would certainly help Responder out here.