What bid?

[Liversidge]

We had this auction last night. We got very high very quickly. What should my next bid have been?

[hv=pc=n&s=sj7hqj7542dak5cj2&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1h2c2sp]133|200[/hv]

[wank]

3 hearts. you have 6 of them. you would rebid 2h if it had gone 1h-p-1s-p and this is just the same but higher.

[helene_t]

The rebid after partner has made a free bid above the 2-level of your suit is a complicated issue. In particular, 2NT here does not show 15+ as you are used to, it is what you will have to bid with a 1534 and 11-13 points. Good to read it up in an Acol textbook and then discuss it with partner, since some rebids have different meanings in different books.

 

But with this hand you have a normal 3♥ bid. It promises six cards and minimum strength.

[Liversidge]

The rebid after partner has made a free bid above the 2-level of your suit is a complicated issue. In particular, 2NT here does not show 15+ as you are used to, it is what you will have to bid with a 1534 and 11-13 points. Good to read it up in an Acol textbook and then discuss it with partner, since some rebids have different meanings in different books.

 

But with this hand you have a normal 3♥ bid. It promises six cards and minimum strength.

 

So would you bid 2NT on this hand, even though it is unbalanced and no stop in clubs?

 

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[BillPatch]

So would you bid 2NT on this hand, even though it is unbalanced and no stop in clubs?

No, I rebid 3♦ to show the diamond "suit". Most descriptive bid possible. And try not to have a sad face!

[Liversidge]

No, I rebid 3♦ to show the diamond "suit". Most descriptive bid possible. And try not to have a sad face!

Obvious when you stand back, think about it logically, and are not hidebound by the rules you learned as a beginner - that bidding a second suit shows 5+ in the first suit and 4+ in the second, if bid at the 2 level.

" Rules are for the guidance of wise men and for the obedience of......" B-)

[echo25]

I would pass. This hand is too weak for 3h.

[BillPatch]

I would pass. This hand is too weak for 3h.

You would pass a forcing bid. That is a rooky mistake. On the auction starting with a suit opening followed by a simple overcall a response in a new suit, a free bid, is unconditionally forcing. Therefore partner knows that he is aiming for higher contracts. It is his judgment that he needs more information from you to place the contract at a higher level. You do not know his hand. One peep from you with your minimum hand may give him the info needed for a successful grand, slam, game or part score. Unless you have committed a gross psych on a previous round, it is best to humor him. And I should suggest that at this stage of your bridge development, it is best to avoid psychs. While they are less likely to cause you to lose potential partners than the true rooky mistakes; they also reduce partnership trust. If you can fake that, you will know that you are a real bridge player.

 

About the opening bid. Sure it is borderline. Even if in your judgment that opening on such cheese is poor bridge, it was definitely not a gross psych.

[fourdad]

If you play Western Q, 3♣ is perfect here. If not, 3♥ is the only response remaining to pds forcing bid.

 

Passing forcing bids is silly.

[echo25]

Since when a new suit at level 2 without a jump is forcing? Do you mean that every partern's bid except hearts/3NT would be forcing?

[Zelandakh]

My guess is that echo comes from a part of the world where NFBs are standard. It is easy to forget that bidding theory varies by region, especially if you have only ever seen one way of doing things.

[fourdad]

My guess is that echo comes from a part of the world where NFBs are standard. It is easy to forget that bidding theory varies by region, especially if you have only ever seen one way of doing things.

 

Agreed, but it appears that Liversidge considered it forcing, hence i surmised he does not play NFB! I am unfamiliar with bridge habits in Poland, so you may be correct.

[iandayre]

If you play Western Q, 3♣ is perfect here. If not, 3♥ is the only response remaining to pds forcing bid.

 

Passing forcing bids is silly.

 

I agree completely with your last comment, but not your first. There is no reason to bid 3C. Show your extra length in H and let partner decide what is next. The option to bid 3NT is always available.

[Liversidge]

Agreed, but it appears that Liversidge considered it forcing, hence i surmised he does not play NFB! I am unfamiliar with bridge habits in Poland, so you may be correct.

I play Acol. I dare not pass - partner might have something like this and be rather unimpressed!

 

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[BillPatch]

My guess is that echo comes from a part of the world where NFBs are standard. It is easy to forget that bidding theory varies by region, especially if you have only ever seen one way of doing things.

True. But I thought it more likely that I was replying to a real beginner, and in the spirit of the board I gave a basic reply. I considered explaining Negative Free Bids, but that is an intermediate treatment which would confuse the beginner.

 

I plan to buy several translated bridge books by Polish authors this fall. Then I might be able to guess how to answer such a question from a Slavic player with a better background.

[iandayre]

I play Acol. I dare not pass - partner might have something like this and be rather unimpressed!

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakt85haq5dqt75c9]133|100[/hv]

 

Certainly a valid argument against pass, ignoring the two H Queens. What I don't understand about this is, why is there any thought of bidding anything other than 3H? No other call would occur to me.

[BillPatch]

Certainly a valid argument against pass, ignoring the two H Queens. What I don't understand about this is, why is there any thought of bidding anything other than 3H? No other call would occur to me.

Good typo catch! The answer to your question is that you are not beginner and bridge is a learned behavior. It appear that even a slightly higher level player such as Liversidge can have a blind spot, though from his comments we can see he is progressing well.

[neilkaz]

Unless playing NFB (I don't) this is a WTP 3♥ bid with my 6 card suit.

[BillPatch]

Another reason for continuing to think about bidding alternatives when you have an automatic choice is that you want to bid in tempo, to avoid giving info from quick bid now, or a slower bid later because you failed to plan ahead.

[echo25]

Yeah, sorry for the mess. I've always played NFB (I haven't even known this name until now) and I thought that's a standard. If 2s is forcing, 3h of course.

[Liversidge]

Certainly a valid argument against pass, ignoring the two H Queens. What I don't understand about this is, why is there any thought of bidding anything other than 3H? No other call would occur to me.

I think you might be referring to the hand I showed in my first post, though the discussion had moved on (or at least I thought it had) to one a bit later, with this hand in response to Helene's posting, which is why I hadn't shown two ♥Q's:

[hv=pc=n&s=s9hkj643dakjc7653&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1h2c2s]133|200[/hv] . I had already accepted the advice that I should just rebid 3♥ with my first hand. When Bill said he would bid 3♦ on the second hand it made sense to me. I thought my hearts were too weak to rebid them at the 3 level, and I had no stop in clubs for a 2NT bid. Bidding 3♦ lied about my diamond length but showed my five hearts, and I thought it hinted at no stop in clubs. If partner had three hearts he could show three card support, or rebid his spades with six good ones, or bid 3NT with a good club stop. While not perfect I thought 3♦ was better than the alternatives.

[rmnka447]

There are a couple possible ways to play free bids after an overcall.

 

The more normal practice is to consider them forcing and at the 2 level showing at least a good 11-12 points. If you have a lesser, non forcing hand with a suit you'd like to show, there are two possible ways to do so. One is to make a negative double, then bid your suit over partner's response. The other is to pass and hope partner reopens the auction, then bid your suit. Doubling and bidding your suit would normally show a stronger hand than passing and bidding your suit.

 

The other possibility is not to have bidding a new suit be forcing. If you play this way, the problem then is how to show a forcing hand. Typically, the mechanism to do so is make a negative double than bid your suit. But if you play this way, there is a problem if the opponents raise the level of the auction. Take Liversidge's responder example hand ♠ AK10xx ♥ AQx ♦ Q10xx ♣ x . If the auction goes 1 ♥ - (2 ♣) - DBL - 3 ♣ - P - (P) - ?, then you start your constructive bidding at the 3 level.

 

What may confuse some people is that many people play new suits over a takeout double differently. They play new suits as non forcing and use the redouble to start the bidding on all stronger hands.

 

 

With the problem that was originally posted, I'd bid 3 ♥. But I'd have strongly considered bidding 2 ♥ instead of 1 ♥ originally.

[sfi]

I am unfamiliar with bridge habits in Poland, so you may be correct.

 

NFBs are fairly normal in Polish systems, with the most common treatment at the moment seeming to be non-forcing only at the 2 level.

[echo25]

NFBs are fairly normal in Polish systems, with the most common treatment at the moment seeming to be non-forcing only at the 2 level.

Indeed.