Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Gilithin]

Suppose there is an important matter that is put to the vote of 100 people and the vote comes out "wrong" by a vote of 52-48. Suppose the supporters of the wrong side used a bunch of phony arguments.

Suppose there is an important matter that is put to the vote of 100 people and the vote comes out "right" by a vote of 52-48. Suppose the supporters of the wrong side use a bunch of phony arguments to say that the vote should not be done this way but instead the 100 need to be split into 10 groups of 10. Each group of 10 has 1 vote in the final tally. They now separate out the 52 into 2 groups of 10 and 8 groups of 4 and complete the groups of 10 with the 48. When the vote is now tallied the result is "wrong" by a score of 2 to 8. Now let us suppose that there is a panel of 9 seniors who decide that this is a perfectly acceptable approach, where 6 of them were previously assigned to the panel by the "wrong" side. This is the United States.

[pilowsky]

What Mary Trump thinks about pardoning Donald.

[johnu]

What Mary Trump thinks about pardoning Donald.

 

I'm a compassionate liberal. So, after Trump has served a nominal sentence of say 30 or 40 years, why not commute his sentence and let him spend the rest of his days in Russia or Saudi Arabia if they will let him in their countries.

[hrothgar]

Obviously it does. Because if "Defund the Police" doesn't mean, "Take Money Away From Police Departments" I don't get it. Please explain exactly what it DOES mean. Semantics matter.

 

Defund the Police is an argument about the set of responsibilities that should be assigned to police departments.

 

Surprisingly enough there is a wikipedia page that gos into this all in detail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defund_the_police

[kenberg]

Defund the Police is an argument about the set of responsibilities that should be assigned to police departments.

 

Surprisingly enough there is a wikipedia page that gos into this all in detail

https://en.wikipedia...fund_the_police

 

The Wik article is very interesting, I had not seen it. I grew up in St. Paul, then lived in Minneapolis in 1959, and in 1960 I lived a few blocks from where George Floyd was killed. Wikipedia says the phrase Defund the Police became common during the George Floyd protests, although it doesn't say it originated there. At any rate, since I once lived near where the phrase "became common" I was particularly interested in what the Wik article said about Minneapolis. Here it is:

 

In Minneapolis, activist groups Reclaim the Block and Black Visions Collective requested for the police budget to be cut by $45 million.^[80] Members of the Minneapolis City Council signed a pledge to dismantle the police and create new public safety systems.^[90][91] City council member Lisa Bender explained, "Our commitment is to end policing as we know it and to recreate systems of public safety that actually keep us safe."^[92] In September, the pledge was set aside. Pledge signer Andrew Johnson clarified that he had supported the pledge only in spirit, not literally. Lisa Bender, the council president, said that different interpretations of the pledge by different council members had created confusion.^[93] The New York Times reported that the pledge "has been rejected by the city's mayor, a plurality of residents in recent public opinion polls, and an increasing number of community groups. Taking its place have been the types of incremental reforms that the city's progressive politicians had denounced."^[93]

 

By the end of 2020, as the city was dealing with a spike in violent crime, Minneapolis officials agreed to a 4.5 percent shift of the city's $179 million annual police budget to violence prevention programs and non-emergency services, which was far short of the sweeping changes demanded by activists and pledged by local lawmakers in the wake of Floyd's murder.^[94] In the 2021 Minneapolis municipal election, voters rejected a ballot measure to amend the city's charter to eliminate a required minimum number of police officers based on the city's population and that would have replaced the police department with a department of public safety.^[95] By the end of 2021, city officials had restored police funding in Minneapolis to $191 million—the funding level prior the resource diversion following the murder of George Floyd in 2020.^[96]

 

 

 

If nothing else, this could illustrate what happens when a complex issue is reduced to a three word slogan. Almost everyone would agree that police encounter a wide variety of situations, some of which they are not remotely well-prepared to handle. Thus we have hostage negotiators. We have specialists to talk with those who are at the top of a building threatening to jump. And so on. Whatever we might say is at the root of racial problems, expecting the police to solve those problems is expecting them to do something that the rest of us have not been able to do. So yes, change is desperately needed for the good of everyone. For the good of the communities but also for the good of the police and also for the good of the perps. There were a couple of instances in my youth when cops helped me straighten out my thinking and I don't doubt this worked well at least in part because I and they were white.

 

One of my earliest memories of the politics of distortion is from 1952, I came home from a Boy Sout meeting to find the TV on and Joe McCarthy talking about the Democratic candidate Adlai Stevenson . I forget all the details but the idea was to portray Stevenson as a Communist. Really? Stevenson a Communist? But the conclusion I draw from this is that any person who is surprised that the slogan Defund the Police gets used to negatively portray Democrats needs to get a grip on reality. Of course it will be so used. So some thought needs to go into how this is presented. A great many people could accept the idea that the situation between cops and the Black community is in serious need of improvement. Many of them would think that Defund the Police does not sound like something they had in mind. That should not be difficult to anticipate.

 

I am not claiming it is simple .I am claiming that thinking about how to present an idea would be time well spent.

Added: About slogans, let's go back to 1952. "I will go to Korea". Ike's slogan was an excellent match between what people wanted done and what they took the slogan to mean. Technically it is vague. But no one thought he would go there to visit the seashore.

[hrothgar]

But the conclusion I draw from this is that any person who is surprised that the slogan Defund the Police gets used to negatively portray Democrats needs to get a grip on reality.

 

The Conservative media will always find something to complain about.

 

There will always be a new caravan approaching the board or a bunch of transgender activists out grooming our children or a busload of ANTIFA terrorists storming the capital.

 

ACORN is always right around the corner and Critical Race Theory will always be a threat.

(until this all gets forgotten)

 

It doesn't matter what we do or what we say.

There will always be some new crisis.

 

And *****wits like Chas will be right there lapping it all up.

 

The rest of us can and should do better.

[Winstonm]

The Wik article is very interesting, I had not seen it. I grew up in St. Paul, then lived in Minneapolis in 1959, and in 1960 I lived a few blocks from where George Floyd was killed. Wikipedia says the phrase Defund the Police became common during the George Floyd protests, although it doesn't say it originated there. At any rate, since I once lived near where the phrase "became common" I was particularly interested in what the Wik article said about Minneapolis. Here it is:

 

 

If nothing else, this could illustrate what happens when a complex issue is reduced to a three word slogan. Almost everyone would agree that police encounter a wide variety of situations, some of which they are not remotely well-prepared to handle. Thus we have hostage negotiators. We have specialists to talk with those who are at the top of a building threatening to jump. And so on. Whatever we might say is at the root of racial problems, expecting the police to solve those problems is expecting them to do something that the rest of us have not been able to do. So yes, change is desperately needed for the good of everyone. For the good of the communities but also for the good of the police and also for the good of the perps. There were a couple of instances in my youth when cops helped me straighten out my thinking and I don't doubt this worked well at least in part because I and they were white.

 

One of my earliest memories of the politics of distortion is from 1952, I came home from a Boy Sout meeting to find the TV on and Joe McCarthy talking about the Democratic candidate Adlai Stevenson . I forget all the details but the idea was to portray Stevenson as a Communist. Really? Stevenson a Communist? But the conclusion I draw from this is that any person who is surprised that the slogan Defund the Police gets used to negatively portray Democrats needs to get a grip on reality. Of course it will be so used. So some thought needs to go into how this is presented. A great many people could accept the idea that the situation between cops and the Black community is in serious need of improvement. Many of them would think that Defund the Police does not sound like something they had in mind. That should not be difficult to anticipate.

 

I am not claiming it is simple .I am claiming that thinking about how to present an idea would be time well spent.

Added: About slogans, let's go back to 1952. "I will go to Korea". Ike's slogan was an excellent match between what people wanted done and what they took the slogan to mean. Technically it is vague. But no one thought he would go there to visit the seashore.

 

On my phone so I will be short: 1) had society done a decent job of protecting everyone equally there would have been no need of the defund the police movement 2) DTP movement began as a race-based complaint-right wing media made it a Democrat slogan and here you are echoing that claim.

 

The issue is propaganda so successful it has turned you into its echo chamber.

[kenberg]

On my phone so I will be short: 1) had society done a decent job of protecting everyone equally there would have been no need of the defund the police movement 2) DTP movement began as a race-based complaint-right wing media made it a Democrat slogan and here you are echoing that claim.

 

The issue is propaganda so successful it has turned you into its echo chamber.

 

Obviously I don't think of myself as an echo chamber, and probably also obviously I can't see myself arguing about whether I am an echo chamber. Not much more to say about it.

[diana_eva]

I removed some back and forth between Richard and Chas. I know this is the WC but please stop the personal attacks. You can attack ideas all you want, however please avoid explaining how you wish to see other people dead and diagnosing each other's mental health.

 

We're all mad here :)

[kenberg]

I removed some back and forth between Richard and Chas. I know this is the WC but please stop the personal attacks. You can attack ideas all you want, however please avoid explaining how you wish to see other people dead and diagnosing each other's mental health.

 

We're all mad here :)

 

Well done and nicely phrased, thanks. Not everyone agrees of course, but thanks.

 

For some time now I have been thinking, and sometimes posting, about how internet postings of various sorts can go so far wrong. WC is better than most but not immune. Part of the problem is very simple. Saturday mornings a group of us often goes for a walk and then to lunch. We chat about the weather, about grandkids, about recent pleasures, then maybe for five minutes, or maybe not, we might talk of something with a political side to it. If we disagree, so what. We enjoy each other's company. It's tough

to bring that sort of basic friendship into internet posts with folks we have never met in person.

 

And, of course, there can be people we just avoid.

 

Anyway, you drew the line in what I think of as about the right spot. Best for all of us.

[Winstonm]

Obviously I don't think of myself as an echo chamber, and probably also obviously I can't see myself arguing about whether I am an echo chamber. Not much more to say about it.

First, let me apologize as what I wrote sounded like a personal attack. I should have said WE ALL at times are echo chambers. That is what makes the failure of media in its responsibility to separate fact from malarkey so critical in today’s environment. Thus the responsibility to dig deep falls on the individual, who doesn’t always have time or inclination to dig, and that makes us all subject to misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda.

[kenberg]

First, let me apologize as what I wrote sounded like a personal attack. I should have said WE ALL at times are echo chambers. That is what makes the failure of media in its responsibility to separate fact from malarkey so critical in today's environment. Thus the responsibility to dig deep falls on the individual, who doesn't always have time or inclination to dig, and that makes us all subject to misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda.

 

I put the dueling pistols back in the safe.

 

Added: Given the current context, I will assure everyone that the reference to a duel was intended as humor.

 

I did a lot of outdoor work today that would have been easier twenty years ago but it isn't twenty years ago so I am tired. And more to do tomorrow. So it might be a few days before I say much.

[johnu]

First, let me apologize as what I wrote sounded like a personal attack. I should have said WE ALL at times are echo chambers. That is what makes the failure of media in its responsibility to separate fact from malarkey so critical in today’s environment. Thus the responsibility to dig deep falls on the individual, who doesn’t always have time or inclination to dig, and that makes us all subject to misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda.

Nice use of malarkey! Joe B would be proud :)

[Winstonm]

My concerns at this point center on how many supporters of authoritarianism,I.e., Trump sympathizers, are still imbedded within the government, inside the FBI, Secret Service, and DOJ., and how much damage can they still do.

[pilowsky]

Things are looking gloomy on the democracy front:

 

 

[johnu]

Things are looking gloomy on the democracy front:

 

Not surprisingly, the percentage of QOP who think the US democracy isn't doing well matches the percentage of QOP who think that Trump won the 2020 election and should be the lawful president.

[Winstonm]

A genuine issue for those people born with authoritarian tendencies is that hierarchy is a necessary component of solution and that makes it more difficult to recognize a con job done skillfully by a demagogue such as Trump.

[barmar]

Anyone who is still incredulous that Trump got elected in the first place should read Andy Borowitz's Profiles in Ignorance: How America's Politicians Got Dumb and Dumber. It explains how we got here, mainly starting with Ronald Reagan, going through Dan Quayle, and Sarah Palin, and George W. Bush, and finally leading to Trump and other recent idiots like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz.

 

What most people may not realize is that many of the same people are behind the scenes, advising the GOP on strategy and training the candidates on speech-making and debating. Roger Ayles, Roy Cohn, and others keep making appearances.

[pilowsky]

"Wall builder" convicted:

NEW YORK (AP) — A Colorado businessman was convicted Friday of charges that he and others siphoned hundreds of thousands of dollars from an online fundraiser to build a wall along the U.S. southern border despite a promise to donors that every cent would go toward building the wall.

 

Timothy Shea stared straight ahead without reaction as he was convicted in Manhattan federal court of two conspiracy counts and an obstruction of justice charge by a jury that deliberated about six hours after a one-week retrial. He said nothing when he was asked to comment as he left the building. Sentencing was set for Jan. 31.

[Winstonm]

"Wall builder" convicted:

Same crime and conviction for Steve Bannon but he was pardoned by Trump.

[kenberg]

"Wall builder" convicted:

 

 

It would be nice, but probably naive, to hope people would give some thought to this. Eleven out of twelve thought he was guilty in the first trial, and twelve out of twelve thought so in the second trial . A reasonable conclusion is that he in fact did what the prosecutors said that he did.

Yes, there was a 1957 movie, 12 Angry men, in which 11 out of 12 jurors initially voted guilty but one juror, Henry Fonda, insisted that more discussion was needed. Well, who would disagree with Henry Fonda? And eventually all twelve voted not guilty. But that was a movie.

I have read that some are now questioning the story about what happened to Paul Pelosi. Well, the guy is in the hospital and he didn't beat himself up. Sure, there has to be a trial, there can be a defense, but could we go a little easy on thinking that this is some sort of false flag operation? Good grief.

 

As everyone knows, I am sometimes a skeptic of some liberal ideas. Any two people can disagree. But vaccines do not make you radioactive. Some discussions are just crazy.

[Winstonm]

It would be nice, but probably naive, to hope people would give some thought to this. Eleven out of twelve thought he was guilty in the first trial, and twelve out of twelve thought so in the second trial . A reasonable conclusion is that he in fact did what the prosecutors said that he did.

Yes, there was a 1957 movie, 12 Angry men, in which 11 out of 12 jurors initially voted guilty but one juror, Henry Fonda, insisted that more discussion was needed. Well, who would disagree with Henry Fonda? And eventually all twelve voted not guilty. But that was a movie.

I have read that some are now questioning the story about what happened to Paul Pelosi. Well, the guy is in the hospital and he didn't beat himself up. Sure, there has to be a trial, there can be a defense, but could we go a little easy on thinking that this is some sort of false flag operation? Good grief.

 

As everyone knows, I am sometimes a skeptic of some liberal ideas. Any two people can disagree. But vaccines do not make you radioactive. Some discussions are just crazy.

 

I just read about 3 militia members who invaded the capitol, and they were former special forces, all 3 in their sixties. How can people who swore an oath believe that Donald Trump and his cronies are the lesser evil? What have they been watching, reading, and hearing to convince them that the rest of us must be stopped at any cost?

[pilowsky]

How can people who swore an oath believe ...

Primum non nocere - if only it were true.

[thepossum]

"Wall builder" convicted:

 

These are the times I need to keep my anti-social traits to myself

[Winstonm]

These are the times I need to keep my anti-social traits to myself

Do you disagree with this law or with the the idea if a jury?