Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[PassedOut]

I can't imagine a country that vote for someone who openly says he will grab unwilling women by their pussies to their highest political office. And yet here we are. Nothing GOP supporters do will shock me any more, including accepting a fascist takeover of the country "for the greater good". Anyone who thinks there is a significant different between Germans, Italians and Americans on this is basically delusional.

I certainly never imagined before 2016 that enough people here in the US could vote for a candidate for president as unsuitable for leadership as Donald Trump as actually did vote for him. And even after he was soundly beaten in 2020 after one hopeless term in office, it was sobering to see how many folks could still vote for him.

 

Now his naked appeals to the thuggish fascists who support him might actually succeed in restoring him to the office that he could never regain legitimately. It's important for every decent person here to work to prevent that from happening. Putin and Trump working together again would make our world a very ugly place.

[Winstonm]

I certainly never imagined before 2016 that enough people here in the US could vote for a candidate for president as unsuitable for leadership as Donald Trump as actually did vote for him. And even after he was soundly beaten in 2020 after one hopeless term in office, it was sobering to see how many folks could still vote for him.

 

Now his naked appeals to the thuggish fascists who support him might actually succeed in restoring him to the office that he could never regain legitimately. It's important for every decent person here to work to prevent that from happening. Putin and Trump working together again would make our world a very ugly place.

Concerning the sensation after Trump won in 2016, I, like you, first felt disheartened to see that he could be elected in the first place - but when he received 60 million votes after 4 years, the feeling progressed into disillusionment to downright depression. And it has yet to right itself.

 

One would think a country could made progress over 100 years, but looking now is like a mirrored image of the Klan marches of the 20's, 20,000 strong, only now they walk around in red hats and MAGA buttons - 60 million of them.

 

Maybe it is time to cast this country aside and start over. They can have Texas and Florida. We'll take the rest.

[Winstonm]

Jane Mayer acknowledges the failure of the Press to "get the message across" in

with the authors of "The DIVIDER", Peter Baker and Susan Glasser, at the Politics & Prose bookstore in DC last night. When asked if more candor from John Kelly and other enablers would have made a difference, Baker said "No. I think everybody's looking for this silver bullet that's going to suddenly wake up everybody who likes Trump and say 'Oh my gosh he's not what I thought he was' and the truth is they've had multiple opportunities if they're open to that conversation and they're not".

 

The press is constantly being worked by Trump to get free advertising for his "brand". Everywhere you turn it's Trump, Trump,, Trump.

The solution is simple and it's like an urban legend in reverse; To rid ourselves of this monster all we have to do is stop saying his name.

[Winstonm]

I can't imagine a country that vote for someone who openly says he will grab unwilling women by their pussies to their highest political office. And yet here we are. Nothing GOP supporters do will shock me any more, including accepting a fascist takeover of the country "for the greater good". Anyone who thinks there is a significant different between Germans, Italians and Americans on this is basically delusional.

 

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

When we see the videos of the huge throngs of Germans in essence worshipping the speeches of Adolf Hitler we should notice that the crowd is made of ordinary people, the butchers, shopkeepers, teachers, principals, farmers, and others, and what we should say is not, why did they fall for it, but, that crowd is us.

[Winstonm]

Hunter S. Thompson takes on Donald Trump Fear and Loathing style:

 

We were a thousand miles out of D.C., on the edge of Mar-a-Lago, when the Adderall kicked in.

[Chas_P]

Did I really say that in this thread?

Yes you did. It was a one-liner. I have looked back for it and can't find it, so I assume you deleted it. Nonetheless I thought it was a worthwhile question. Why have we deteriorated into a society who judges everyone based on their skin color or what hangs (or doesn't hang) between their legs. The politicians, on both sides of the aisle, have worked at that. "Divide and conquer". It's a sad state of affairs.

[Gilithin]

Why is everything now all about race and gender?

So is this an implicit criticism of Trump's racist "Coco Chow" 'tweet'? Reducing a former minister to her skin colour complete with racist slur would seem to fall under this general umbrella.

[pilowsky]

The US navy has just put Gerald Ford out to water. A nearby explosion (registering 3.9 on the Richter scale) left the slow-moving ponderous vessel unfazed.

[johnu]

Maybe it is time to cast this country aside and start over. They can have Texas and Florida. We'll take the rest.

Well, also Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Oklahoma (sorry about that :) ), Wyoming, Idaho, North and South Dakota, the rest of the confederate states, etc.

 

As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states. In just about every state except Hawaii (all Democratic) and Oklahoma (all QOP)(more condolences) there are counties that voted for each party. That way, you usually won't have to move to a different state to be in your preferred country. Of course, many of the functions of the state will become obsolete with counties belonging to different countries, so there will likely be loose regional affiliations to govern strictly regional problems.

[pilowsky]

Or just get rid of the Senate and introduce compulsory preferential voting.

[kenberg]

Well, also Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Oklahoma (sorry about that :) ), Wyoming, Idaho, North and South Dakota, the rest of the confederate states, etc.

 

As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states. In just about every state except Hawaii (all Democratic) and Oklahoma (all QOP)(more condolences) there are counties that voted for each party. That way, you usually won't have to move to a different state to be in your preferred country. Of course, many of the functions of the state will become obsolete with counties belonging to different countries, so there will likely be loose regional affiliations to govern strictly regional problems.

 

 

 

Twenty years or so back I was living in Bowie Maryland and there was a movement for a very local secession, just the city itself. Some of the advocates seemed to actually believe in what they were saying, they held meetings and rallies. At one point they thought we could declare ourselves to be a suburb of Toronto. Yes, that Toronto, the one that's in Canada. For some reason, this never came to pass.

 

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

 

Anyway, I doubt very much that anyone will be seceding. I doubt that there will be either a Flexit or a Texit, and I oppose a Marexit, so we are all stuck with each other.

[Winstonm]

Twenty years or so back I was living in Bowie Maryland and there was a movement for a very local secession, just the city itself. Some of the advocates seemed to actually believe in what they were saying, they held meetings and rallies. At one point they thought we could declare ourselves to be a suburb of Toronto. Yes, that Toronto, the one that's in Canada. For some reason, this never came to pass.

 

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

 

Anyway, I doubt very much that anyone will be seceding. I doubt that there will be either a Flexit or a Texit, and I oppose a Marexit, so we are all stuck with each other.

USIT?

[johnu]

More practically speaking, when the South seceded it was because they didn't like what the North was doing, they did not suggest that the North should secede. Same with the colonies' secession from British rule. From that, it would appear that if we are unhappy with the current conservative trends, it would have to be us, not them, who would secede. Why should they do so if they can gain control?

Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. Even today, it seems unlikely that the QOP will ever win the popular vote again in a presidential race, and only outrageous gerrymandering keeps them in control in many parts of the the country.

 

If you've followed the news, many confederate legislatures and influencers in different confederate states have voiced their support for seceding from the US. I say let them go on their way.

 

Separating the US into 2 countries is an "experiment" worth trying on the IMO reasonable assumption that the parts are greater than the sum when a substantial part of the country is rowing in the opposite direction as hard and fast as they can. I see the US as a Yugoslavia, a USSR, a Czechoslovakia, a country forced together in the past that never managed to integrate into a common country.

[pilowsky]

Well in the spirit of the Liberian experiment, perhaps the "irreplaceables" could combine their wealth and purchase a parcel of land in Patagonia.

Jonestown redux.

And why not? Self-determination for every one of them.

[akwoo]

 

As I've previously advocated for, the secession of the confederates should be done on a county by county basis, not by states.

 

 

Not fine-grained enough.

 

My state senator, whose district is basically my county, was elected with 51% of the vote.

 

He got less than 20% of the vote outside of the county seat and more than 70% in the county seat. (Yes, I looked at the precinct-by-precinct returns.)

[kenberg]

Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. Even today, it seems unlikely that the QOP will ever win the popular vote again in a presidential race, and only outrageous gerrymandering keeps them in control in many parts of the the country.

 

If you've followed the news, many confederate legislatures and influencers in different confederate states have voiced their support for seceding from the US. I say let them go on their way.

 

Separating the US into 2 countries is an "experiment" worth trying on the IMO reasonable assumption that the parts are greater than the sum when a substantial part of the country is rowing in the opposite direction as hard and fast as they can. I see the US as a Yugoslavia, a USSR, a Czechoslovakia, a country forced together in the past that never managed to integrate into a common country.

 

 

 

I perhaps grant that a Texas secession or a Florida secession is not quite as totally outright nuts as was the Bowie secession movement that I spoke of, but still, it is not going to happen. Politicians like to see their names in the news. I was thinking, or at least hoping, you were joking about the Dakotas seceding. Or some of the counties seceding. As mentioned, some of the secessionists in Bowie seemed totally committed (and probably should have been committed, but in a different sense). So it gets tough to see just what is intended seriously. I have a grandson living in Austin. I will not be asking him his views on a Texas secession. He might start worrying about the mental health of his grandfather.

 

People move, some move to a different country. That happens. States will not be seceding. Ok, I could be wrong. But I strongly believe, and hope, that I am right.

 

I do agree that the country right now is in a horrible mess, the worst mess of my lifetime. I don't know the way out of it. That's as far as I am going on this.

[Gilithin]

I do agree that the country right now is in a horrible mess, the worst mess of my lifetime.

The most danger for sure, both in terms of commercial and financial world dominance and in terms of its internal democracy. But I am not entirely sure it is right to say that the country is in more of a mess now than when 15% of the population were denied their voting rights and generally treated as second class citizens.

[kenberg]

The most danger for sure, both in terms of commercial and financial world dominance and in terms of its internal democracy. But I am not entirely sure it is right to say that the country is in more of a mess now than when 15% of the population were denied their voting rights and generally treated as second class citizens.

 

Yes, a good point. It was a different sort of mess but definitely a serious mess. It was a mess that a person could see at least some way to address. Pass laws that prohibited tests for voting that were clearly discriminatory, pass laws that said a person gets to sit at any open seat on a bus, pass laws that said if you serve meals you serve them to anyone that can pay for them and so on. Some of this is easier said than done. An upscale restaurant perhaps can have a dress code that allows them to not seat a person that comes in wearing a T-shirt, shorts and sandals. Education has been particularly difficult. So yes, there were and are problems. But this is the first time in my life that I feel the country has fundamental problems that I have no idea what we can do to solve.

 

As I said, I don't think secession by us (Maryland where I live or Minnesota where I grew up) or "them" (Texas or Florida as examples) is the solution and I strongly doubt it will ever happen anyway. But what to do? I am at a loss. Here in Maryland, I would like to say we should all listen to and respect other opinions. But Cox, the Republican candidate for governor thinks, or says he thinks, the 2020 election was stolen plus a lot of other stuff that marks him as a crazed zealot. I am truly sorry that he is the R candidate (and repulsed by the role the Dems played in helping him become the R candidate). I voted for Hogan, our current R governor, but Cox? At the risk of making a bad pun, only a sucker would vote for him.

 

So this mess is different, at least for me. And yep, I acknowledge that being white probably affects my views on which messes are worse than others. Be that as it might be, we are in one hell of a mess. I'll put aside which mess might have been worse, we are in one hell of a mess.

 

And oh, the bombing of Pearl Harbor was a little before my third birthday, and so the invasion of Poland was a little before my first birthday, and this all led to a mess of a very different sort. But the war ended before my seventh birthday so no one expected me to have an opinion about all of that.

[y66]

One thing that will help is for more people to realize that secession talk and other forms of asininity are being hyped because they are useful for stoking the cash raising machine to which both parties are addicted.

[kenberg]

Here is another issue. I quote from post 20513:

 

"Voting demographics favor Democrats in the long run as younger, multi-racial generations start to replace the aging, white racist QOP in many states. "

This lumps "aging, white" together with "racist QOP". Progressives might want to think about this. If I and other aging white people get the idea that the progressive view includes enthusiasm for our demise, that could account for some voters making the choices that they do. It doesn't account for all choices, but perhaps it accounts for enough choices to swing an election.

Sure, the rebuttal can be that we must take "aging, white racist QOP" as a whole. But some rhetoric needlessly alienates natural allies. I think it is now widely understood that "De-fund the police" was a slogan of world-class stupidity. Immediately the explanations came out that this did not mean we should de-fund the police. The recent ploy of Dems to help nutjob Republicans such as Maryland's Cox win the primary really pi**es a lot of us off, and it suggests the Dems feel that they can't win against a sensible R opponent. Among other objections to this ploy, it might backfire. Again, it's idiotic.

There are quite a few of us who long for a return to sanity on all sides. We don't want anyone seceding. One hope among many.

[hrothgar]

I think it is now widely understood that "De-fund the police" was a slogan of world-class stupidity. Immediately the explanations came out that this did not mean we should de-fund the police. The recent ploy of Dems to help nutjob Republicans such as Maryland's Cox win the primary really pi**es a lot of us off, and it suggests the Dems feel that they can't win against a sensible R opponent. Among other objections to this ploy, it might backfire. Again, it's idiotic.

 

Here's the thing Ken

 

You are ALWAYS going to be able to find something that pisses you off.

 

Some folks on the Left said "Defund the Police"

One particular group decided to throw some money to support Cox.

 

So, if you want to look for excuses to get upset about immaterial *****...

Go for it.

 

But none of this is actually relevant to any of the real issues that are impacting the country.

 

You want to know what pisses me off?

 

The fact that you never show any actual interest in policy positions or the like or invest any time / effort in looking at these, preferring instead to go go pearl clutching over irrelevant minutia.

[hrothgar]

I think it is now widely understood that "De-fund the police" was a slogan of world-class stupidity. Immediately the explanations came out that this did not mean we should de-fund the police. The recent ploy of Dems to help nutjob Republicans such as Maryland's Cox win the primary really pi**es a lot of us off, and it suggests the Dems feel that they can't win against a sensible R opponent. Among other objections to this ploy, it might backfire. Again, it's idiotic.

 

Here's the thing Ken

 

You are ALWAYS going to be able to find something that pisses you off.

 

Some folks on the Left said "Defund the Police"

One particular group decided to throw some money to support Cox.

 

So, if you want to look for excuses to get upset about immaterial *****...

Go for it.

 

But none of this is actually relevant to any of the real issues that are impacting the country.

 

You want to know what pisses me off?

 

The fact that you never show any actual interest in policy positions or the like or invest any time / effort in looking at these, preferring instead to go pearl clutching over irrelevant minutia.

[kenberg]

Here's the thing Ken

 

You are ALWAYS going to be able to find something that pisses you off.

 

Some folks on the Left said "Defund the Police"

One particular group decided to throw some money to support Cox.

 

So, if you want to look for excuses to get upset about immaterial *****...

Go for it.

 

But none of this is actually relevant to any of the real issues that are impacting the country.

 

You want to know what pisses me off?

 

The fact that you never show any actual interest in policy positions or the like or invest any time / effort in looking at these, preferring instead to go pearl clutching over irrelevant minutia.

 

If the things that upset me also upset others and if this upsets enough people enough to swing some elections, it could be a mistake to think of these matters as irrelevant minutia. The 2016 election should have been won by HC. It wasn't. If the only explanation Dems can find for this is that they did everything right but people were just too stupid, too lazy, too whatever, then they might want to think again.

 

There are votes out there that should but don't go to Dems. I am recommending some self-reflection on why this happens. Blaming others, either blaming opponents for their deviousness or voters for their stupidity, only goes so far.

 

As for my interest in policy positions, take inflation as an example. My position is that I want someone who understands economics far better than I do to be making the decisions. Surely he/she will not call me for advice. I want someone who thinks the effects on the middle class, the struggling class, etc are more critical than the effects on the rich, but I also want the long-term effects on the country to be taken into account. I hope to trust their judgment.

In a similar manner I want someone smarter than I am to formulate immigration policy, and someone smarter than I am to decide on the best moves in the problems in Ukraine.

Sure, I have some general ideas about where we should be headed., but I don't plan to drive the bus to get us there.

 

I am speaking of bringing the country back together. It is true that I am often astounded at how much more some people know than I do, including people from other countries discussing US politics. But casual conversations at lunch and elsewhere lead me to believe I am at least somewhere in the upper quarter of the population in my knowledge of issues. This means that to win an election the candidate must appeal not only to me and others like me but to people with less experience and less time to invest. My example for this goes back to 1960. I got married in June, I started grad school in the fall, I worked for NASA in the summer taking all the overtime I could get (and it was quite a bit). In the fall wife started classes at the Minneapolis School of Art. We were extremely short on cash, there was a lot to do, I tried to follow the debates and all that stuff but I didn't understand then and I don't understand now just what the issues were about some off-shore islands near China. I did my best and then I voted. There are lots of people now like I was then. Enough to swing an election. It is best not to needlessly antagonize them.

 

I have no intention of apologizing for my ignorance, nor, for that matter, of bragging about my knowledge. We all choose how to spend our time. Candidates who wish to win must cope.

[Winstonm]

If these were “normal” times would be inclined to agree with Ken; however, this is a crisis point and if that means doing anything necessary to prevent any Republican from winning then so be it. If it backfires, there was nothing to salvage anyway and it’s time to expatriate unless a Christian theocracy is your ideal government.

[Winstonm]

If these were “normal” times would be inclined to agree with Ken; however, this is a crisis point and if that means doing anything necessary to prevent any Republican from winning then so be it. If it backfires, there was nothing to salvage anyway and it’s time to expatriate unless a Christian theocracy is your ideal government.