Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Chas_P]

Richard obviously has the panel moderators in his hip pocket.

[Gilithin]

Richard obviously has the panel moderators in his hip pocket.

There seems to be considerably more evidence to suport Richard's opinion than that of M.B.Matthews. If moderators want to get involved, I would question on which side they should throw their weight.

[hrothgar]

Richard obviously has the panel moderators in his hip pocket.

 

Perhaps the moderators take context into account.

 

I have a long history of providing valuable content to the forums.

You're a self admitted troll and a racist.

 

I wonder why folks don't have that much sympathy for you...

[pilowsky]

Noam Chomsky discusses power, justice and the state with Michel Foucault in 1971.

Plus ca change.

There's a part 1 -

.

[kenberg]

That's not my point at all. Here's my point:

I, like you, know very little (if anything) about M. B. Matthews other than what I read on the internet. I like his opinion. You don't. That's OK. I think none the less of you. We just don't all see things the same way.

 

I will take a stab at this. You quote " He distrusted the experts who believe they knew better than the average American how to run the country. This distrust was appealing to Trump's base who believed, and with good reason, that it is the experts who created the despotic mess in which we find ourselves.". So I will look at levels of mistrust.

 

A: Rain was predicted for this morning but did not happen. This is hardly unusual.

I'll move on.

 

B: A while back I got bitten by a bug (or so I assume) while mowing the grass. Not unusual, and usually I ignore it. But this one produced a large swelling the next day, and around 3 the next morning I woke up with even larger swelling and significant pain. So I got up and sent a message to my doctor. He arranged for me to meet with his Physician's Assistant. When I saw the PA I mentioned a new, and powerful, drug that I was taking for a different issue and expressed concern over interactions. The PA prescribed an anti-biotic and assured me that it has no adverse interactions with anything. I have had bad results with that PA before and even if I hadn't, checking online is often wise. Yes, that anti-biotic has adverse interactions with many drugs including the one I was taking and anyway it was recommended that it be taken only as a last resort. I have, from that experience and others, good reason to be cautious about that PA. When I am ill, I hope for medical treatment, but I do not accept everything I am told without question. Trust but verify, someone said. A Republican, as I recall.

 

C; Ok, now we get to Trump. And yes, I will speak of his claims of election fraud. It's a big issue. And the reasons for distrust, and the consequences, are enormous. Even before the election there were repeated claims that DT could not possibly lose a fair election and so, inverting that statement if trump lost then the election was unfair. That is still the fundamental argument. If the counted vote did not show Trump to be the winner, then there must have been fraud. QED. Of course many Republicans have rejected this argument. So they are RINOS. We have political ads with armed politicians on a RINO hunt. If you even dare to say Biden won, you are a RINO.

The distrust here is not like the distrust of a weatherman, or even like my distrust of a particular PA or my general reluctance to give full trust to anything a doctor tells me. This distrust is closer in kind to what a woman out on a date might feel if she spots the guy slipping something into her drink. You leave, you call a friend to come and get you. Maybe you can get the guy put in jail, maybe you can't, but there are no other issues to discuss.

Distrusting experts is natural, experts are sometimes wrong. Often Krugman says one thing, Summers says another, they cannot both be right, and I recommend accepting that without a great deal of study we cannot see who is right and who is wrong. Maybe both are wrong. But that is very very different from what Trump is doing. He is lying, he is promoting violence. He is the fraud of the last election.

 

Distrust experts? Fine, don't we all? Trust Trump? You gotta be kidding. And it's not funny.

 

Side issue on Trolls: Chas and I are probably not the only ones who read what Chas and I say. So if one or the other of us is a Troll then non]trollish readers can still decide what they think of what we say. Or not. My (older) daughter's favorite childhood story was The Three Billy Goats Gruff. I never asked whether she liked the goats or the troll best.

[Gilithin]

The distrust here is not like the distrust of a weatherman, or even like my distrust of a particular PA or my general reluctance to give full trust to anything a doctor tells me. This distrust is closer in kind to what a woman out on a date might feel if she spots the guy slipping something into her drink.

The best example I can give is that it is like the distrust of Christians who say that the Earth is flat because that is what the Bible says, regardless of how much evidence to the contrary there is. In this case, there is massive election fraud because Donald Trump says so. I can somewhat understand the faith that some put in the Bible even when it is obviously misguided. That people put a similar faith in Donald Trump is something I find completely unfathomable.

[kenberg]

The best example I can give is that it is like the distrust of Christians who say that the Earth is flat because that is what the Bible says, regardless of how much evidence to the contrary there is. In this case, there is massive election fraud because Donald Trump says so. I can somewhat understand the faith that some put in the Bible even when it is obviously misguided. That people put a similar faith in Donald Trump is something I find completely unfathomable.

 

I decided to avoid religious comparisons for my post, but there is something to what you say. I have always had friends who over a fair spectrum of religious beliefs. Faith, hope and charity are fine with me, and I never claim that my approach to right and wrong can be fully justified by logical argument. But yes, the Earth is round. It just is. And you should not drink the Kool-Aid no matter what your leader says. And so on.

Biden won. He just did. I can agree with some conservative views, I can believe in many things. But the Earth is round and Biden won the election. And Trump is a serious menace/ A menace to all of us.

[pilowsky]

The problem with Trump supporters is not that they don't believe experts.

They know what an expert is, they go to the doctor when they're sick and take their car to the mechanic when it doesn't work just like everyone else.

Trump supporters have a different problem.

 

Imagine you live in a country where every day from the moment you're born you are told that there is a divine being who decides everything and so long as you believe in his (always a he) existence you will succeed in life, become insanely wealthy and never have to worry about anything.

 

After spending a lifetime like this you wake up one day and there's a problem you can't quite get your head around.

What to do?

 

Well the answer of course is that George Soros pinged you with a space laser.

 

When a person with a formal thought disorder tells you that they are required to hang around the headquarters of the FBI with a gun or that Salman Rushdie is Satan, they aren't exercising any kind of 'right'.

 

They've reached a point in their existence where the stuff they were told in school and the stuff they see in front of them cannot both be true.

When this happens they make posts about M.B. Mathews in the water cooler of a Bridge Forum.

[Winstonm]

The problem with Trump supporters is not that they don't believe experts.

They know what an expert is, they go to the doctor when they're sick and take their car to the mechanic when it doesn't work just like everyone else.

Trump supporters have a different problem.

 

Imagine you live in a country where every day from the moment you're born you are told that there is a divine being who decides everything and so long as you believe in his (always a he) existence you will succeed in life, become insanely wealthy and never have to worry about anything.

 

After spending a lifetime like this you wake up one day and there's a problem you can't quite get your head around.

What to do?

 

Well the answer of course is that George Soros pinged you with a space laser.

 

When a person with a formal thought disorder tells you that they are required to hang around the headquarters of the FBI with a gun or that Salman Rushdie is Satan, they aren't exercising any kind of 'right'.

 

They've reached a point in their existence where the stuff they were told in school and the stuff they see in front of them cannot both be true.

When this happens they make posts about M.B. Mathews in the water cooler of a Bridge Forum.

 

Along these lines, I watched half-heartedly something or the other on the tube yesterday and wasn't paying a lot of attention but it was an interview with a bunch of southerners who support Trump. Almost all stated the election was stolen. But the overriding takeaway (when I did pay attention) was how incredibly racist they were and how blind they were to their own racism. The final lady interviewed said it all. She said southerners didn't care what color you were but didn't understand why everyone couldn't just get along together and stop burning down the cities like those BLM.

 

They are totally blind to their complete lack of empathy. I have tried to come up with a term to describe this type of unrecognized racism - unwoke seems to fit. I've also toyed with Omert, a takeoff on omerta, the gangster code of silence,as with Omer they don't tell themselves anything they don't want to hear. Kind of an internal code of silence. They only see the world through white privilege eyes. If you don't fit into that, you are wrong.

[Chas_P]

Perhaps the moderators take context into account.

 

I have a long history of providing valuable content to the forums.

You're a self admitted troll and a racist.

 

I wonder why folks don't have that much sympathy for you...

I'm not looking for sympathy. I come here principally for amusement. I do enjoy Kenberg's musings; he's the only one here whom I deem to have more common sense than an eggplant. The rest of you guys seem to be here just for mutual back-slapping and a big anti-Trump circle jerk. It's fun to watch. I hope you don't mind.

[Gerardo]

I'm not looking for sympathy. I come here principally for amusement. I do enjoy Kenberg's musings; he's the only one here whom I deem to have more common sense than an eggplant. The rest of you guys seem to be here just for mutual back-slapping and a big anti-Trump circle jerk. It's fun to watch. I hope you don't mind.

 

So, in your own worldview, you don't have more common sense than an eggplant.

Small agreements.

[pilowsky]

I wonder if he knows what eggplant is slang for?

[Winstonm]

I spent most of my adult life in occupations that required me to be agreeable, to tolerate intolerable people.

I don't have to tolerate those kinds of people now, so I don't and won't.

[y66]

Good morning. Congress is known for being dysfunctional. Why hasn’t it been over the past two years?

 

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?productCode=NN&te=1&nl=the-morning&emc=edit_nn_20220816&uri=nyt://newsletter/ba4dd855-e3c2-51e7-bc3e-9b2c05ebd1c9

[kenberg]

I hope that the Leonhardt article is widely read and considered. It is optimistic, maybe overly so, but it celebrates success that comes from realism and negotiation. That's good.

[Winstonm]

Arizona Republican gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake described Trump's charisma as BDE (Big Dick Energy), what we want in our leaders.

So, once again we are back to arguing about whose god has the biggest dick. Amazing.

[Cyberyeti]

Arizona Republican gubernatorial candidate Kari Lake described Trump's charisma as BDE (Big Dick Energy), what we want in our leaders.

So, once again we are back to arguing about whose god has the biggest dick. Amazing.

 

Is she suggesting he HAS or he IS the biggest dick in the US

[Winstonm]

An explanation of Trumpism: https://www.latimes....icans-democracy

One of the paradoxes of charismatic leadership is that the leader’s illegitimacy — in legal, rational or traditional terms — can have the effect of strengthening their hold on their followers. This dynamic has been at the heart of Trump’s distortion of the right. If the man cannot measure up to the traditional, moral, rational or legal yardsticks that conservatives once ascribed to leadership, then it is the yardstick’s fault for not measuring up to the man.

[kenberg]

An explanation of Trumpism: https://www.latimes....icans-democracy

 

Just when we think the party cannot get any crazier we see BDE enter the room. I liked Marlon Brando in The Wild One and even more so in On the Waterfront, but I was an adolescent and these were movies. We are supposed to grow up and we are supposed to develop some judgment.

 

In the movies a woman often goes for a guy at least in part because of his outlaw character, or his BDE if we must. And in the movies the guy often then grows into responsibility in large part because of the love of a fine (and beautiful) woman. And again, that's in the movies. In real life Trump is in bed with Stormy whatever while his wife is giving birth. If that's BDE I can be happy I do not have it, as can Becky.

 

I really hope the election does not come down to BDE. The story so far has been embarrassing enough.

[kenberg]

This post will be a total throwaway but there is something I have always wondered about. I saw the movie Kiss Me Kate in 1953 and Bianca (Ann Miller) sings Any Tom, Dick or Harry, about how she wants any Tom, Dick or Harry, any Tom, Harry or Dick and then goes into a much-repeated line about how she really needs a Dick. The Broadway version was in 1948 and I have always wondered if this was the origin of the slang term. And I have also wondered how this got past the movie censors. For comparison, the song I Hate Men sung by Kate the Cursed (Kathryn Grayson) had a line in the Broadway version "Of course, I'm awfully glad that Mother had to marry Father" which had to be changed in the movie to "Of course, I'm awfully glad that Mother deigned to marry Father".

 

Maybe I should ask Kari Lake about this.

[y66]

This is a BFD.

The Inflation Reduction Act is now law.

 

Giving Medicare the power to negotiate lower prescription drug prices. Ensuring wealthy corporations pay their fair share in taxes.

 

And taking the biggest step forward on climate in our history.

[thepossum]

How does giving MEdicare greater resources/power to negotiate cheap drugs with big-pharma play into possible unnecessary demand for said meds

[pilowsky]

Noam Chomsky is too busy to contribute to this discussion directly but here's what he had to say on the topic of America to the 'intentists' art movement.

Spoiler alert - he doesn't like Ted Cruz.

…you have a society that is actually collapsing U.S society is literally collapsing you see it in all over things like mass shootings you know people are afraid to go to send their kids to school you can't camp in this National Park you can't go to a shopping mall maybe somebody will start shooting in fact it's uh kind of interesting that the ultra-right Supreme Court basically endorsed this the the decision when they rescinded the 1930 New York law on carrying weapons in public you look at justices Thomas's deciding a decision he he didn't say these words but basically what he was saying is our society is so monstrous that people have to have guns because who knows what's going to happen if you cross the street it's just people have to be able to defend themselves what kind of society is that what kind of society is it when Ted Cruz says the answer to school shootings is more security barricade the doors let the kids go to school in a fortress where the teacher has a gun and they learn how to hide in case there's a mass shooting that's the way we want to raise our children thank you Ted Cruz thank you justice Thomas we want to live in a madhouse which is the way they're describing the society and it's becoming that way in large part because of their actions so uh I mean everything is dysfunctional there was just a study in the proceedings of the National Academy of excess Covid deaths due to the dysfunction of the medical system not just the deaths but those that can be attributed to the fact that the health system doesn't work in 2020 it was over two hundred thousand.

 

We're killing hundreds of thousands of people this is only one example of course just by having a profit-oriented business run health system which is an international scandal I mean if or it's well known that our infrastructure is collapsing bridges are falling apart you know nothing's working Subways you can't take so what do we do well Congress finally agreed to pass a some kind of infrastructure bill but it had to be framed as a China competitive Act we can rebuild their Bridges because China is getting ahead of us not because we need Bridges I mean it's pathological.

 

[hrothgar]

How does giving MEdicare greater resources/power to negotiate cheap drugs with big-pharma play into possible unnecessary demand for said meds

 

If we actually cared about this, we'd start by cracking down on advertising rather than affordability.

[kenberg]

Noam Chomsky is too busy to contribute to this discussion directly but here's what he had to say on the topic of America to the 'intentists' art movement.

Spoiler alert - he doesn't like Ted Cruz.

 

 

 

Whew. I listened to the first ten minutes, meaning I heard his answer to the first question. Linguistically speaking, "heard" means I heard every word. I am at a total loss as to what he actually said, as far as meaning is concerned. I might try for more later, but can't even say what I did not understand. Or, rather, I did not understand any of it. I googled intentism and found this link. https://www.deviantart.com/intentism The pictures are clear enough.

 

I am always up for something new, at least in theory, but I really had no idea what Chomsky was saying. If the first ten minutes had anything to do with the USA I missed it. Ancient Greece, India, China, Europe, and I guess USA got mentioned, but I could not see how any phrase was connected to any later phrase.

 

I am not rejecting anything here, I simply don't get it.