Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[pilowsky]

Well, at least he was convicted 'on the balance of probabilities'. Some slight solace.

[johnu]

There is only one serious argument in the impeachment trial and that's by the Manchurian President. His "argument" is if they (re: GOP senators) vote to convict, they will be primaried in their next election, and if they win the primary, he will actively campaign against them. So far that "argument" has worked with 90% of the GOP in Congress.

What a ridiculous estimate for the number of craven Republican Senators who are bought and paid for by the Manchurian President. There were only 43 out of 50 of them, for only 86%. This is nowhere near 90% and you should apologize to the forum for posting ridiculously bad estimates.

[pilowsky]

What a ridiculous estimate for the number of craven Republican Senators who are bought and paid for by the Manchurian President. There were only 43 out of 50 of them, for only 86%. This is nowhere near 90% and you should apologize to the forum for posting ridiculously bad estimates.

 

You do realise that this not what schizophrenia is! All the same, your heartfelt incipient apology is noted.

[kenberg]

I'm glad it's over, and I think it ended as well as anyone could reasonably expect.

 

The case for conviction was presented. The counter-argument was that this was simply political theater by the Dems. But seven Republicans voted to convict. Forget for a minute the arguments pro and con, is it really reasonable to think that if it were just a political stunt be the Dems then they could get seven Republicans to sign on? The question answers itself. So no, it was not just a political stunt, it was a serious charge dealt with seriously.

 

 

Now 100 senators have said where they stand. That's that, voters can make what they will of it, we move on.

 

Btw, Raskin is from my district. I even voted for him. I expect there are issues that we would not agree on, but I happily voted for him, both in the primary and in the general election. He did a good job. Way to go Jamie.

[Chas_P]

I'm glad it's over, and I think it ended as well as anyone could reasonably expect.

 

Amen brother. Amen. Hopefully better days lie ahead.

[pilowsky]

Amen brother. Amen. Hopefully better days lie ahead.

 

That's what they said when the 'flu pandemic ended, and after WW1, and after WW2, and when smoking was discovered to cause lung cancer; but before the 'better days' arrive, positive constructive and socially useful steps need to be taken.

Amening is not going to help.

 

I don't believe in God or theological prosperity.

Our lives are determined by our actions here and now.

[kenberg]

In retrospect, I think of trump as ni the same class as Al Capone. AC made a lot of money, he was successful in the liquor business, he was effective in dealing with critics, he managed to avoid conviction for a long time, but I would not have wanted him to be president. Eventually, it was tax issues that brought him down and that might well be the fate of DT.

 

All that being said, we now have to move on. For the last four years, there has been a big tent for the many who agree on the awfulness of Trump. Now we have to face up to our many disagreements within this tent and find solutions. Let's think, for example, about the minimum wage. I have a question: Who works for minimum wage?

In 1952 I took a job stocking shelves in a grocery store for 60 cents an hour, the minimum wage then was 75 cents an hour but I was 13 and not prepared to object. In 1959 I was loading freight onto trains for 2 dollars an hour, 3 dollars an hour on Saturdays, the minimum wage was 1 dollar an hour. To move on to 2021, the Maryland minimum wage now is $11.75 an hour (I looked it up) and the local Burger King is advertising jobs for $12.50 an hour and up. From what I have seen, I think many of the employees are up from the 12.50. (It's reasonably obvious who the beginners are.) For another example, the other day I had a plumbing problem that I was going to fix, and after a bit of trying this and that I called a plumber. Is he making $11.75 an hour or anything remotely like $11.75 an hour? I doubt it.

 

So what are we looking at? Are we speaking of someone trying to raise a family on $11.75 an hour or are we speaking of young people who start at that and quickly move up?

 

I think Maryland is on track to have the minimum wage up to $15 an hour in 2025. This seems to be working and I am fine with it. Nonetheless, when we speak of the minimum wage I think it would be useful to understand who is working at minimum wage and why they are doing so. Are we speaking of people who (n my time) couldn't manage a fork lift or (in today's market) can't cook a Whopper? I am assuming that male and female Whopper cookers, and Black and White Whopper cookers, all are paid the same. The local Burger King seems to have a mix of Whopper cookers.

 

The minimum wage is one issue among many that we now need to look at seriously. We might not come to complete agreement on what we would like if we could have our choice, but I bet we can come to a practical agreement on what we should now do.

 

At any rate, Trump is past tense. Yes, he left a mess. So there are things to be done. As always there are.

[Winstonm]

Although Trump as president is past tense, the corruption of the Republican Party is very much present and future tense, and it is and will be a massive mistake to try to move forward without addressing and eliminating that threat,

[kenberg]

Although Trump as president is past tense, the corruption of the Republican Party is very much present and future tense, and it is and will be a massive mistake to try to move forward without addressing and eliminating that threat,

 

Yes, some truth to that. A few posts above, Pilowski says

"Our lives are determined by our actions here and now."

This is an overstatement, probably he would agree that it is an overstatement, but it is very much the right idea.

We have far more control over what we do than we have over what others do. So we discuss what we think is right, and we see if we can make a viable plan.

No one is totally in control of their own life (I doubt Pilowski meant that we are), but we can make plans and choices.

I strongly recommend that we do not wallow in the past four years and we get moving on what we would like now and what we hope for down the road.

[y66]

We met and became political partners a decade ago, uniting in a bid to stave off Democratic obsolescence and rebuild a party that would increase the clout of regular, struggling Georgians. Our mission was clear: organize people, help realize gains in their lives, win local races to build statewide competitiveness and hold power accountable.

 

But the challenge was how to do that in a state where many allies had retreated into glum predictions of defeat, where our opponents reveled in shellacking Democrats at the polls and in the Statehouse.

 

That’s not all we had to contend with. There was also a 2010 census undercount of people of color, a looming Republican gerrymander of legislative maps and a new Democratic president midway into his first term confronting a holdover crisis from the previous Republican administration. Though little in modern American history compares with the malice and ineptitude of the botched pandemic response or the attempted insurrection at the Capitol, the dynamic of a potentially inaccurate census and imminent partisan redistricting is the same story facing Democrats in 2021 as it was in 2011. State leaders and activists we know across the country who face total or partial Republican control are wondering which path they should take in their own states now — and deep into the next decade.

 

Georgians deserved better, so we devised and began executing a 10-year plan to transform Georgia into a battleground state. As the world knows, President Biden won Georgia’s 16 electoral votes in November, and the January runoff elections for two Senate seats secured full congressional control for the Democratic Party. Yet the result wasn’t a miracle or truly a surprise, at least not to us. Years of planning, testing, innovating, sustained investment and organizing yielded the record-breaking results we knew they could and should. The lessons we learned can help other states looking to chart a more competitive future for Democrats and progressives, particularly those in the Sun Belt, where demographic change will precede electoral opportunity.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/opinion/stacey-abrams-georgia-election.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

[pilowsky]

Yes, some truth to that. A few posts above, Pilowski says

"Our lives are determined by our actions here and now."

This is an overstatement, probably he would agree that it is an overstatement, but it is very much the right idea.

We have far more control over what we do than we have over what others do. So we discuss what we think is right, and we see if we can make a viable plan.

No one is totally in control of their own life (I doubt Pilowski meant that we are), but we can make plans and choices.

I strongly recommend that we do not wallow in the past four years and we get moving on what we would like now and what we hope for down the road.

 

It is always hard to encapsulate an idea into a single phrase.

 

I would also add that our inactions determine our lives.

What we do not do, what we stand idly by and allow to happen, is just as telling in forming our future as the actions that we do take.

 

When I was a child, I was bullied because of my 'otherness'. Being Jewish was not so easy in the 1960s and 1970s as it is now.

In 2021, thanks to Trump and the people that support him, it isn't easy to be anything other than individualistic and self-serving.

 

Trumpism transcends race colour creed religion and level of competence. Like Dirty Harry, Trumpists are very fair-minded - they dislike everyone who isn't the same as them.

 

People look at the Trump White House and say -"Well, Jared is a Jew, and Stephen Miller is a Jew." or "Trump has black people and Hispanic people in his team." Therefore he must be a solid guy.

Yesterday in the street I met a man and his wife. I recognised the man's accent as complained about something, and I said "Ag shame." This expression is so instantly recognisable to South Africans that we fell into conversation

The man turned out to be - like me - a South African Jew. (I was 1 year old when we left).

 

This man- who had "married out" and converted to Christianity, was a Trump supporter.

I was not surprised, I live in an area that is heavily contaminated with such people. The malignancy of American culture has spread like cancer into Australia.

 

Why was he a Trump supporter?

Not because Trump permitted the death of countless people throughout the world.

Not because Trump had destroyed countless alliances that protected the helpless throughout the world.

And not because Trump had enriched himself and his Family whilst lying like a loon about it to everyone he meets.

 

No, the reason that he thought Trump was wonderful is that Trump had moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

This single act is reported as follows by ABCnews.

 

"Documents filed with the official database of federal spending show that the State Department awarded the Maryland-based company Desbuild Limak D&K a contract for $21.2 million to design and build an "addition and compound security upgrades" at the embassy. These updates will be made to the former consular building in Jerusalem -- the embassy's temporary location.

"We're going to have it built very quickly and very inexpensively," President Trump said of the embassy back in March, while sitting beside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the Oval Office. "They put an order in front of my desk last week for a billion dollars. I said, 'A billion? What's that for?'"

"We're actually doing it for about $250,000," the president said."

 

I personally don't care where the Embassy is. For all Trump's lies about peace in the middle east, this pointless and egregious waste of time and money that could have been spent saving lives disgusts me.

Of course, it wins him votes. But it's "all lies and jests and we disregard the rest" to paraphrase S&G.(http://bit.ly/TheBoxerSimonBaez).

Trump has destroyed any trust or affection the world had for America.

 

Australia has a history of supporting its allies with unwavering loyalty.

Our Prime Minister (the staunchly conservative) John Howard watched the plane smash into the Pentagon on 9/11.

ABC radio

9 September, 2011 8:18AM AEST

John Howard on 9/11.

John Howard was in Washington on September 11, 2001 when the planes hit the Twin Towers. He saw the attack on the Pentagon from the window of the hotel where he held his press conference.

https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/09/09/3313801.htm

He then provided unwavering support to the US-led mission.

Australian conservative politics is now so intertwined with Trumpism it will be impossible to shake it off.

 

My statement that WE control our lives stands in contrast to the two core lies perpetrated by Trump and his base:

1. Anyone can achieve the American dream. (insert country of residence).

2. If you fail, it's Gods will.

 

Not everyone will get everything they want, and it is not because God says so. These twin towers of conservatism crush the hopes and aspirations of the people dying in gulags and concentration camps throughout the world.

They are a transparent excuse for people that live in cosy homes in safe enclaves policed by retired white military men that target 'other people' throughout the world.

 

When I get off the plane from a long-haul flight from Australia, I'm the guy that gets pulled into a small room and interrogated by police because I look like a terrorist.

Insisting that I'm just a little annoying doesn't help me at all.

[Winstonm]

Yes, some truth to that. A few posts above, Pilowski says

"Our lives are determined by our actions here and now."

This is an overstatement, probably he would agree that it is an overstatement, but it is very much the right idea.

We have far more control over what we do than we have over what others do. So we discuss what we think is right, and we see if we can make a viable plan.

No one is totally in control of their own life (I doubt Pilowski meant that we are), but we can make plans and choices.

I strongly recommend that we do not wallow in the past four years and we get moving on what we would like now and what we hope for down the road.

 

I agree that we have to concentrate on the agenda - but a part, maybe as much as half of that agenda has to be protecting the country from the assault of domestic terrorists, a group which now includes the Republican Party. It is simply naivete to ignore the ongoing assaults from state legislatures on free and fair elections and voting rights. I said in a post above that the GOP has learned how to overcome two of the three main safeguards of the Constitution - when they have control over the results of elections they will have organized what is in essence a takeover of democracy.

 

That is certainly more important than how much we pay for a minimum wage.

[johnu]

I agree that we have to concentrate on the agenda - but a part, maybe as much as half of that agenda has to be protecting the country from the assault of domestic terrorists, a group which now includes the Republican Party.

The Republican party's base is domestic terrorists. Some Republican politicans are domestic terrorists, other Republican politicians pander to domestic terrorists. You don't have to look farther than state and local Insurrection and Sedition Party (aka GOP) groups censuring and reprimanding members of Congress who either voted for impeachment, or voted to convict the Seditionist in Chief. Fox Propaganda Channel white supremacists and Republican politicians like to talk about cancel culture. They lack the ability to recognize irony when they seek to punish those who sought to bring the Criminal in Chief to justice.

 

The best way to protect the country from Republican domestic terrorists, is to give them their own country, the new Confederate States of America, or as I like to call it, Sh*thole America.

[kenberg]

No one has ever taken me for a terrorist. When my younger daughter was about 4, someone thought I was her grandfather. I think I have to develop a fiercer look.

[Cyberyeti]

No one has ever taken me for a terrorist. When my younger daughter was about 4, someone thought I was her grandfather. I think I have to develop a fiercer look.

 

I'm not sure if this is better or worse, shopping with my mother (26 years older) I got referred to as her husband by a cashier. ALso when moving into my university accommodation aged 21, I was asked by a parent if it was my son or daughter I was moving in.

[y66]

I'm glad it's over, and I think it ended as well as anyone could reasonably expect.

 

The case for conviction was presented. The counter-argument was that this was simply political theater by the Dems. But seven Republicans voted to convict. Forget for a minute the arguments pro and con, is it really reasonable to think that if it were just a political stunt be the Dems then they could get seven Republicans to sign on? The question answers itself. So no, it was not just a political stunt, it was a serious charge dealt with seriously.

 

Now 100 senators have said where they stand. That's that, voters can make what they will of it, we move on.

 

Btw, Raskin is from my district. I even voted for him. I expect there are issues that we would not agree on, but I happily voted for him, both in the primary and in the general election. He did a good job. Way to go Jamie.

WASHINGTON — Lawmakers fresh off the impeachment acquittal of former President Donald J. Trump are issuing growing calls for a bipartisan commission to investigate the administrative and law enforcement failures that led to the mob attack on the Capitol on Jan. 6 and recommend changes to prevent another siege.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/14/us/politics/commission-capitol-mob.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

re: Raskin - He's an admirable politician. An endangered species these days. I wish there were more like him in Congress.

[pilowsky]

No one has ever taken me for a terrorist. When my younger daughter was about 4, someone thought I was her grandfather. I think I have to develop a fiercer look.

 

Well Ken, they've never seen you play Bridge.

[Zelandakh]

No one has ever taken me for a terrorist. When my younger daughter was about 4, someone thought I was her grandfather. I think I have to develop a fiercer look.

Perhaps you consider using this, Ken. More generally, you are a white, middle-class man. I invite you to try coming through high security areas with prosthetic make-up as a coloured Muslim. The difference in reaction is, I stress, not purely an American thing either. I have also seen non-whites getting hassled systematically from law enforcement in Europe. But it is good to understand the difference in reaction as, as whites, get compared with some other groups. It is not about looking fierce so much as having the "right" parents.

[johnu]

No one has ever taken me for a terrorist. When my younger daughter was about 4, someone thought I was her grandfather. I think I have to develop a fiercer look.

 

These are the results of a recent poll. 45% of Republicans supported the storming of the US Capitol, compared to 43% of Republicans who opposed the storming of the US Capitol. So you are in a minority of Republicans who opposed the invasion on January 6. 12% of Republicans couldn't figure out what country they were living in or were mentally incompetent because of drugs or alcohol and couldn't understand the question.

 

[kenberg]

These are the results of a recent poll. 45% of Republicans supported the storming of the US Capitol, compared to 43% of Republicans who opposed the storming of the US Capitol. So you are in a minority of Republicans who opposed the invasion on January 6. 12% of Republicans couldn't figure out what country they were living in or were mentally incompetent because of drugs or alcohol and couldn't understand the question.

 

 

I'm in a minority of Republicans? No one has taken me to be a terrorist and I also am seldom taken to be a Republican.

 

All that aside, this poll looks like something that gives polls a bad name. The option "I haven't read or hear anything about it" is obviously false because the pollster has just stated "Supporters of President Trump have stormed the US Capitol to protest lawmakers certifying Joe Biden's election victory".

 

I am not just playing with words here. Many people have probably not spent time reading about the details, and they would take this description as being what they are to base their opinion on. Now "storming" is pretty vague, and I think inadequate. We might imagine how the responses would have been if the question had been phrased "A mob broke into the US Capitol pushing past police, bashing at least one cop over the head with a fire extinguisher, announcing their intention to kill Mike Pence and others if they could find him, these actions leading directly to at least five deaths. causing trauma for just about everyone inside. Do you support its strongly or somewhat or oppose it etc".

If a pollster tells people what happened and then asks their opinion, I don't think a high level of skepticism is needed to think that how the pollster phrases what happened will have a heavy influence on the results.

 

Otherwise put: If I were designing a poll and my objective were to get answers along the lines that they got, this is exactly the design I would use.

[Winstonm]

I'm in a minority of Republicans? No one has taken me to be a terrorist and I also am seldom taken to be a Republican.

 

All that aside, this poll looks like something that gives polls a bad name. The option "I haven't read or hear anything about it" is obviously false because the pollster has just stated "Supporters of President Trump have stormed the US Capitol to protest lawmakers certifying Joe Biden's election victory".

 

I am not just playing with words here. Many people have probably not spent time reading about the details, and they would take this description as being what they are to base their opinion on. Now "storming" is pretty vague, and I think inadequate. We might imagine how the responses would have been if the question had been phrased "A mob broke into the US Capitol pushing past police, bashing at least one cop over the head with a fire extinguisher, announcing their intention to kill Mike Pence and others if they could find him, these actions leading directly to at least five deaths. causing trauma for just about everyone inside. Do you support its strongly or somewhat or oppose it etc".

If a pollster tells people what happened and then asks their opinion, I don't think a high level of skepticism is needed to think that how the pollster phrases what happened will have a heavy influence on the results.

 

Otherwise put: If I were designing a poll and my objective were to get answers along the lines that they got, this is exactly the design I would use.

 

Well, there is the Tucker Carlson/Sean Hannity poll question: A group of patriotic Americans were required to force their will on Capitol Police in order to engage with their elected representatives. Do you agree or disagree with their action?

[Winstonm]

Btw, it is not enough to say Trump is gone, the impeachment trial is over, time to move on. Keep a close eye on what is occurring with state Republican parties censuring those Republicans who voted against Trump and are trying to gerrymander and corrupt the democratic process to their advantages.

 

As I said before, this anti-American, terrorist crowd disguised as a political party must be repudiated into extinction before we can move forward.

[kenberg]

It is not enough to just say Trump is gone, I completely agree with that.

Even so, I think the focus needs to be on Biden and what we do now.

 

Some problems: Immigration, Covid and the many related issues such as job loss and the mess the kids are in from the closed schools, economic issues, Afghanistan, the Middle East, global warming and, of course, the etcetera.

I hope the Rs will dump trump. I think this is far more likely to happen if Biden does a good job. Of course "good job" is defined in different ways by different people. We can acknowledge that without becoming obsessed with it. I hope.

[pilowsky]

These are the results of a recent poll. 45% of Republicans supported the storming of the US Capitol, compared to 43% of Republicans who opposed the storming of the US Capitol. So you are in a minority of Republicans who opposed the invasion on January 6. 12% of Republicans couldn't figure out what country they were living in or were mentally incompetent because of drugs or alcohol and couldn't understand the question.

 

 

Without commenting on what every American thinks or believes 'on average', there are some noteworthy elements to the Figure you have abstracted.

 

Although it was published by the Chicago Council, it was produced by yougov.

 

The Chicago Council is an organisation that is funded by wealthy philanthropists. It claims to be a vehicle for informing Americans about international affairs on the grounds they were rather ill-informed about them after WWI.

Yougov is a British polling organisation founded by two conservative men.

Yougov uses an online system collecting their data from a pool of people.

 

The findings in the poll above closely represent the views of conservatives in the USA remembering that the proportions are somewhat similar to the number of Senators that voted (or wanted to) impeach Trump.

Paul Keating called the Senate in Australia (which is elected on the same basis as the US Senate (a set number of senators per state) as 'unrepresentative swill'.

It turns out that the Republican Senators that voted guilty represent larger numbers of Americans compared with the larger group that did not.

 

The Senate - no matter what Mitch thinks - is not there to legislate. Its only job is to make sure that the bulk of the population (House of reps) do not do things that crush the less populous states.

They are a house of review - nothing more.

In many countries, bi-cameral systems of government are found to make governance cross-eyed and dysfunctional.

 

That's why the British eliminated the powers of the Lords.

It's why half the countries in the world are unicameral and others want to be.

One rural member of parliament in the state of South Australia once remarked: "How can you talk about one-vote one-value in a State where 10% of the population gets 90% of the rainfall?"

 

This single comment (during a debate about whether or not to more fairly arrange electoral boundaries) demonstrates what is wrong with a parliamentary democracy where the setting of boundaries is left up to small partisan groups.

 

You end up with Senators from Kentucky and North Carolina deciding how a country should be run.

The Minority Republican leadership is now represented by Senators from Kentucky, South Dakota, Wyoming, Missouri, Florida, Utah, Idaho and Iowa.

The Majority Democrat Leaders are from New York, Illinois Washington Michigan Virginia+Massachusetts, Minnesota, Vermont West Virginia, New Jersey Wisconsin and Michigan).

 

Or, to put it another way, the Democrat Senate leadership represents 26.39% of the USA while the Republican Leadership represents 12.64%.

I think that these weightings ought to be considered when looking at percentage data of the type presented by YouGov.

 

Decades of systematic disenfranchisement of the majority non-conservative voices has brought the US to its knees.

 

 

Edit: This means that 304.8 (go figure) of the 1048 people sampled agree with the proposition. Or 21% (14+7 of the 'overall'). Add up the dark blue bars to get 100%.

In most countries, even if a candidate reveals that they believe that genocide is an appropriate way to manage the population they will still get around 30% of the vote from 'rusted-on' supporters.

To that extent, a figure of 21% is pretty dismal.

A line that I heard attributed to LBJ was that he told an Aide to say that the opponent f***ks pigs. The Aide said, "I can't do that - no-one will believe it". LBJ replied "Yeah, but he'll have to deny it!".

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by pilowsky

[thepossum]

My aspiration is that soon I will be in the "NA (pronounced nah) - I haven't read or heard anything about this" category

 

More seriously I think the world's media should be impeached for 2020