Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[pilowsky]

What in hell was the deal about the police opening the fences to let the insurgents into the capitol building?

 

Be reasonable, they were cleaners. The police made a small mistake.

!

[Zelandakh]

Is this no longer US Law? I have not even heard this mentioned yet in the coverage but it seems pretty clear that this passes the 'imminent lawless action' test.

[pilowsky]

OK, we can all go home now - it's over.

[akwoo]

There's no need to invoke the 25th Amendment for just two weeks. Pence and the Cabinet can just agree amongst themselves (with the concurrence of Congressional leaders) to ignore Trump and run the show themselves, just like they appear to have done in calling up a few National Guardsman yesterday. It'll help if they can convince Twitter to just keep Trump turned off.

 

Sure it's not quite legally kosher, but we aren't German. (Also, there's precedent in the form of the last year and a half of Woodrow Wilson's presidency after he had a severe stroke.)

 

(If they could get Mrs. Trump to help, it could be really fun to go further and gaslight him by pretending no one can see or hear him.)

[kenberg]

I wemt to bed after the Senate accepted teh Arizona electors and got up to see that the Senate has now counted the electoral votes from all states. Ok, this is movement in the right direction.

 

 

I sai earlier I thought we had 24 or maybe 48 hours to address the situation, t show that the president's actins will be dealt with. Counting the electoral votes is a better way of saying this than the announcement I was suggesting. Now I think we have another short window. If Donald Trump wants to leave office in the normal way, he has a very short period to make this clear. We need an announcement, sometime today, that he now accepts the result of the election, he will be leaving office on January 20, and he urges his supporters to accept this [peaceful transfer of power. He has, until now, made it clear that he does not accept this transfer of power and his urging of his followers has not been to be peaceful. Lacking a clear statement that he now accepts this transfer, we must deal with the fact that he does not. Exactly how to deal with it I am not sure, but it must be dealt with on the basis that he has refused to accept this reality.

 

We have had four years to understand just who and what Trump is. Much of this should have been addressed long ago. But he is still able to do a lot of harm in the next two week. If that is his choice, and I suspect that it will be his choice, them we must deal with it. And that means now.

[Zelandakh]

This is the closest you are likely to get, Ken.

[kenberg]

Yes, and while I might sound picky it's not enough.

 

"Even though I totally disagree with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th. I have always said we would continue our fight to ensure that only legal votes were counted. While this represents the end of the greatest first term in presidential history, it's only the beginning of our fight to Make America Great Again!"

He does not say what it will be an orderly transition to, he says it is the end of his first term without acknowledging that, at least in 2021, there will be no second term. He says he will continue to fight.

No, this does not do it. It sounds like something a lawyer would write, requiring a close second reading to see what, if anything, it actually says.

He started this. If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.

[Winstonm]

Be reasonable, they were cleaners. The police made a small mistake.

!

 

Yes, how true, Dimitri.

 

Myself, I still think the Caligula model of removal from office fits the situation best.

[Winstonm]

Btw, this from Politico makes the slogan Defund the some Police seem a lot more reasonable:

 

Just after 1 p.m., rioters began clashing with police on the Capitol steps and pushing toward the entrances to the building. They battered the doors and shattered windows. Within an hour, they had breached the secure complex and throngs of rioters were freely roaming around the building. Some began pushing toward the Senate chamber, where senators were still inside debating the election results. Outside, they continued to wreak havoc. One police officer was caught on video taking a selfie with a rioter who had entered the building.

my emphasis

[PeterAlan]

If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

 

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?

[hrothgar]

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

 

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?

 

Looks as if the House and Senate have adjourned which makes impeachment very unlikely

 

Not usre if there are enough Trump cabinet officials left to invoke the 25th

Guess we might get lucky and a Secret Service agent pops Trump if he tries to nuke Bristol or some such, but I suspect that we're stuck with Trump for another two weeks

[Winstonm]

I am hoping people like McConnell understand that this is no longer simply politics. The president at the moment is still Donald Trump, and as such is commander-in-chief of the military. There must have been a reason to put in sycophants in the DOD - perhaps so there could be no national guard responses?

 

It seems we now know why Trump placed his flunkies into the DOD. This must certainly mean these men were co-conspirators in this attempted sedition.

 

Marcy Wheeler wrote this about yesterday's insurrection - it is difficult to argue with her conclusions:

 

 

The DOD refusal to honor a request from Mayor Muriel Bowser, made before the coup attempt started, to deploy the National Guard to DC to help makes it clear (as did Trump and Bill Barr’s deployment of DOD troops over the summer) that DC cannot be left anymore without its own defense. As many people have noted, this provides a clear reason, independent of the number of Senators or the existence of a largely-Black city without full franchise, that DC should become a state.

 

Similarly, the refusal of DC cops, including Capitol Police, to treat these terrorists as terrorists demonstrates why people have called to “defund” the police. It’s not denial that we need police. It’s a recognition that, right now, police forces are often filled with extremists who sympathize with people like the terrorists who stormed the Capitol. There needs to be a priority on cleansing police forces of such extremists, or they will become an armed force working against democracy again.

 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Winstonm

[barmar]

He started this. If Donald Trump now wishes to cooperate in a peaceful transfer of the presidency to Joe Biden, he needs to be unequivocal. There is very good reason to believe that he plans no such thing, and this statement does not help at all.

What difference would it make? He's gone back on dozens of statements he's made. Even if he described the exact steps he's going to take out the door, I wouldn't take it at face value. He's a bald-faced liar.

[barmar]

BTW, I actually think there will be a peaceful transition on Jan 20, because Trump will resign on Jan 19 so that Pence becomes President and can grant a proactive pardon for the crimes he's likely to be prosecuted for.

[Winstonm]

Quite apart from anything else, he's only referring to "an orderly transition on January 20th" (my emphasis), which hardly gets the job done properly (as we've already been seeing with, for example, Defense and Budget Management).

 

What are the chances of Biden turning out to be President 47?

 

Only if he is re-elected.

 

PS: Congratulations to Warnock and Ossoff for turning Georgia and the U.S. Senate Democratic.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Winstonm

[PassedOut]

I particularly liked these observations by John Kelley in this post article: Aides weigh resignations, removal options as Trump rages against perceived betrayals

 

John F. Kelly, another former White House chief of staff who has shied away from rebuking Trump over other transgressions, suggested that the president’s leadership was wanting.

 

“Three men made comments today, two of them very helpful and meaningful, and should be remembered,” Kelly said. Senate Majority Leader Mitch “McConnell’s remarks this afternoon, just before the riots, were, I think, words for the ages — and not from a politician, but from a statesman. President-elect Biden’s were presidential and right to the heart of what we have to do to heal ourselves.”

 

Kelly also seemed to voice regret about Trump’s election.

 

“We need to look infinitely harder at who we elect to any office in our land — at the office seeker’s character, at their morals, at their ethical record, their integrity, their honesty, their flaws, what they have said about women, and minorities, why they are seeking office in the first place, and only then consider the policies they espouse,” Kelly said.

Trump's lack of character was evident long before his election in 2016. His attempts to destroy our country out of rage for his rejection by responsible voters was predictable. In fact, his niece did predict it. I'm so looking forward to the end of this nightmare for our country.

 

I don't mind saying that I don't feel kindly toward the folks who voted for him, bringing this down on the US.

[johnu]

Is this no longer US Law? I have not even heard this mentioned yet in the coverage but it seems pretty clear that this passes the 'imminent lawless action' test.

 

Yes it is, and several former former US Attorneys and former high ranking members of the DOJ have discussed this on MSNBC and CNN. At least 2 current US Attorneys appointed by Trump have indicated that they will indict anybody that is identified from their jurisdictions that traveled to Washington DC and occupied the Capitol building before they are replaced.

[johnu]

BTW, I actually think there will be a peaceful transition on Jan 20, because Trump will resign on Jan 19 so that Pence becomes President and can grant a proactive pardon for the crimes he's likely to be prosecuted for.

After the Manchurian President threw the VP under the bus for not tossing out the electoral votes and appointing the Grifter as president, and then putting his family in danger who were at the Capitol building, I think that is exceedingly unlikely compared to just last week. The Manchurian President has turned his stooges against Pence (did you read where Pence's Chief of Staff was barred from entering the White House) so without those stooges, Pence has no political future.

 

The only scenario I see working out for the Grifter in Chief is that he promises his 100% support for a Pence 2024 campaign in exchange for a pardon, but besides being a felony, can Pence trust the Grifter?

[johnu]

Looks as if the House and Senate have adjourned which makes impeachment very unlikely

 

Not usre if there are enough Trump cabinet officials left to invoke the 25th

Guess we might get lucky and a Secret Service agent pops Trump if he tries to nuke Bristol or some such, but I suspect that we're stuck with Trump for another two weeks

 

That brings up a theoretical question. Do the Manchurian President's "acting" secretaries of various departments get to vote on 25th Amendment motions? They haven't been nominated and confirmed by the Senate. Or could the Manchurian President fire all the cabinet secretaries and appoint his personal "acting" secretaries before they can vote to remove him.

[pilowsky]

I take what I said above back.

If a week is a long time in politics, he can probably shake the world with more than 10 days left to him.

[PeterAlan]

... can Pence trust the Grifter?

That one's easy: no-one can.

 

I liked a comment someone added to a WaPo article: impeachment should be very quick; House in the morning, Senate in the afternoon - the Republicans have already made clear that they don't need any witnesses at an impeachment.

[cherdano]

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/to?p0=263&iso=20210120T12&msg=Time%20left%20until%20Trump%20leaves%20office

[kenberg]

It has not been much more than 24 hours since Donald Trump was urging his followers toward the capitol. A number of our representatives from both parties have now spoken out in dismay. Donald Trump has said nothing of significance. Ok, that's that, his silence speaks volumes.

 

We must now assume that Donald Trump has no intention of behaving responsibly for the remainder of his term. That has always been clear to me, but there is now no room for doubt by anyone.

 

Our representatives and yes, our military leaders must be prepared for trouble. Those who were expected to keep order yesterday did not do so, they now say, in one form or another, "Gee, who would have thought that would happen? ". Well, it was their job.

 

We must not make this mistake again.

 

The best route? I don't claim to know. But it is as plain as anything can be that we must be prepared for the worst. It is no longer rationally possible to say "Oh, surely he wouldn't do that" no matter what is put in for "that". Donald Trump might do anything. He knows no limits.

 

Tough job, yes, but it's here. I hope enough of our representatives and other leaders step up.

[Winstonm]

https://www.theonion.com/serbia-deploys-peacekeeping-forces-to-u-s-1819565829

 

BELGRADE–Serbian president Vojislav Kostunica deployed more than 30,000 peacekeeping troops to the U.S. Monday, pledging full support to the troubled North American nation as it struggles to establish democracy.

[y66]

If Mr. Trump wants to avoid a second impeachment, his best path would be to take personal responsibility and resign. This would be the cleanest solution since it would immediately turn presidential duties over to Mr. Pence. And it would give Mr. Trump agency, a la Richard Nixon, over his own fate.

 

This might also stem the flood of White House and Cabinet resignations that are understandable as acts of conscience but could leave the government dangerously unmanned. Robert O’Brien, the national security adviser, in particular should stay at his post.

 

We know an act of grace by Mr. Trump isn’t likely. In any case this week has probably finished him as a serious political figure. He has cost Republicans the House, the White House, and now the Senate. Worse, he has betrayed his loyal supporters by lying to them about the election and the ability of Congress and Mr. Pence to overturn it. He has refused to accept the basic bargain of democracy, which is to accept the result, win or lose.

 

It is best for everyone, himself included, if he goes away quietly.