Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[y66]

OMG. The affidavit Sidney Powell and others are hyping when they say many precincts in Michigan have more votes than actual voters is .... based on data from Minnesota.

 

Do Trump's lawyers know what they're doing?

[y66]

Politics is about addition, not subtraction.

 

And a good strategy of addition is to cheer people who do the right thing, not attack them for doing it on their timeline instead of yours.

 

Welcome converts to your cause. Don't chase them away.

[Winstonm]

This Huffington Post headline sums up the sorry state of U.S. politics:

 

 

More GOP Senators Have COVID Than Have Acknowledged That Joe Biden Won

[kenberg]

Good idea in principle but how to get a vote on the Senate floor?

 

You know the pressure to stop clowning around is approaching critical mass when even Peggy Noonan and the editorial board at the Murdoch-owned WSJ are calling Trump on his sh#t. Another week and even the trolls on this thread will be saying enough is enough.

 

I would not expect a vote. And, anyway, it needs to go beyond just the Senate.

Journalists can play a big role here.

 

The point is this: There is no room for fence sitting regarding what Trump is now doing. It is not "politics as usual" or anything remotely like that. People bob, weave and duck. That happens. On occasion it is so gross that no amount of bobbing and weaving can keep a person free of it.

 

I am glad to hear about the WSJ, and it make sense. I can happily read the WSJ. I don't gag. One can be conservative. One can be business oriented. But also one can be a complete Trump Toady, and I would not expect that of the WSJ. We need to sort out who is who. And insist that they declare themselves Lindsey Graham has made hos choice. I am hoping others, many others, will make a different choice. But we must force a clear explicit choice.

[Zelandakh]

Ditto for forum mates who have made self government a reality in the wc.

Who do you see as the POTWC?

[y66]

Numbers don’t lie. As secretary of state, I believe the numbers that we have presented today are correct. The numbers reflect the verdict of the people.

 

Republican Governor Brian Kemp lamented the discrepancies found by the audit, but said he would sign off on the results as required by state law. He noted that the move paves the way for any further legal challenges.

 

Because the margin is less than 0.5 percentage point, Trump has until Tuesday to request a recount. Absent a court order, any recount would only require counties to feed ballots through scanners again instead of the more time-consuming process of tallying them by hand.

 

The Trump campaign has not said if it will request such a count, but Thursday night said it intends “to pursue all legal options to ensure that all legal ballots are counted.”

[y66]

Who do you see as the POTWC?

Shubi's ghost.

[cherdano]

More details here.

There should be a push to have each Senator say whether they are ok with this or not ok with this. A simple question and a simple yes or no should be expected. On the record.

 

I would not expect a vote. And, anyway, it needs to go beyond just the Senate.

Journalists can play a big role here.

 

(...) But we must force a clear explicit choice.

The Washington Post is clearly reading Ken's WC posts, and tried to force this choice:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/most-republicans-greet-trumps-push-to-overturn-the-election-with-a-customary-response-silence/2020/11/20/91948292-2b52-11eb-9b14-ad872157ebc9_story.html

 

Three Senators responded with statement critical of Trump. Romney, Sasse and Collins. The others did not respond, or referred to previous statement made before Trump started pressuring election officials to sabotage the vote count.

 

Three out of 53 might be all we will get, I am afraid.

[kenberg]

The Washington Post is clearly reading Ken's WC posts, and tried to force this choice:

 

https://www.washingt...ebc9_story.html

 

Three Senators responded with statement critical of Trump. Romney, Sasse and Collins. The others did not respond, or referred to previous statement made before Trump started pressuring election officials to sabotage the vote count.

 

Three out of 53 might be all we will get, I am afraid.

 

I have a nightly séance with Katherine Graham.

 

These guys Shirkey and Chatfield from Michigan, didn't ask to be front page news on WaPo but they now are. It's the old story, a cliché. As a child I saw The Emperor's New Clothes as a play put on by the students at Macalester College (and if it pleases the Mac admin to hear that I remember this 70 years later, well, I do). The point of course is that someone says "Hey wait. Look at the obvious." And then someone does. And then more do. Then many more. We can hope.

 

 

The person trying right now to steal an election is named Donald Trump..

[y66]

Trump rolling out a last minute price control rule on prescription drugs because he’s mad at Pfizer for not leaking the vaccine news is really bizarre — but maybe good policy?

 

Trump unveils plan linking drug payments to cheaper overseas prices

Friday is also the last day that the Trump administration can release a rule that could be finalized in the 60 days before Joe Biden assumes office.

[Winstonm]

I have a nightly séance with Katherine Graham.

 

 

The person trying right now to steal an election is named Donald Trump..

 

Let's not sugarcoat it - Donald Trump is trying to destroy American democracy.

[kenberg]

Let's not sugarcoat it - Donald Trump is trying to destroy American democracy.

 

Phrase it your own way if you like, but I prefer my way. "Destroying democracy" might well be correct, but it's a general phrase lacking in precision. "Stealing an election" is clear cut, it's in the present, it's here and now,. I am saying/hoping that people who have gone among with past Trump actions such as firing anyone who does not kiss his butt should now be able to see that his current actins are a clear-cut attempt to steal an election. Whatever agreements or disagreements they and I might have had in the past, they need to be put aside to address this very real, very obvious, assault that is front of our faces.

 

It might be possible, at least to themselves, to squirm out of acknowledging their enabling silence or support of past Trump actions. Not here, not now. The election is over, the votes are counted, in some cases re-counted, it's over. Anyone, regardless of political views, who is silent about or supportive of Trump's current actions, must be held responsible for what happens next. I am thinking we will get through this and even that those who speak up will be given credit for doing so. But it's a tough time, and we will see who does what.

[y66]

This is a plug for Matt Yglesias' new blog venture. Today's topic is

 

County level vote shift from 2016 to 2020, discuss

 

 

Yglesias has moved on from Vox which he co-founded with Ezra Klein 8 years ago. Klein is moving to the NY Times in January. Yglesias is still doing the Weeds podcast.

[Winstonm]

Phrase it your own way if you like, but I prefer my way. "Destroying democracy" might well be correct, but it's a general phrase lacking in precision. "Stealing an election" is clear cut, it's in the present, it's here and now,. I am saying/hoping that people who have gone among with past Trump actions such as firing anyone who does not kiss his butt should now be able to see that his current actins are a clear-cut attempt to steal an election. Whatever agreements or disagreements they and I might have had in the past, they need to be put aside to address this very real, very obvious, assault that is front of our faces.

 

It might be possible, at least to themselves, to squirm out of acknowledging their enabling silence or support of past Trump actions. Not here, not now. The election is over, the votes are counted, in some cases re-counted, it's over. Anyone, regardless of political views, who is silent about or supportive of Trump's current actions, must be held responsible for what happens next. I am thinking we will get through this and even that those who speak up will be given credit for doing so. But it's a tough time, and we will see who does what.

 

I see your point and I agree. It is most likely better to talk about specific actions than abstract ideas. Even more to the point, don't you think it is important to emphasize that what Trump is doing is to serve the best interests of only Trump - that regardless of what happened in the past it is critical going forward that we vote into office people - Democrat or Republican - who do not place their personal interests above those they serve?

 

How can that message be simplified?

[y66]

I see your point and I agree. It is most likely better to talk about specific actions than abstract ideas. Even more to the point, don't you think it is important to emphasize that what Trump is doing is to serve the best interests of only Trump - that regardless of what happened in the past it is critical going forward that we vote into office people - Democrat of Republican - who do not place their personal interests above those they serve?

 

How can that message be simplified?

As in how to simplify "wear the damn mask"?

[kenberg]

Skipping the mask for the moment, I have a thought or two on the elction steal.

 

An example from last night that I thought was a m mistake. or at least not a point we want to dwell on.

If I watch news on television it is PBS. Last night they mentioned that Trump is focusing on minority neighborhoods in his attempts to get ballots thrown out and that this is discriminatory. I don't doubt that this is true but I think it tales away from the main point. What Trump is doing is wrong, whether he is trying to get my vote thrown oout or a minority vote thrown out.

Simple is best.

Civil rights people have a point, no doubt lawyers will have a point, many many points that they wish to make, but KISS: It's wrong.

 

I have previously advocated not writing people off. But I also said that there were exceptions and this is one.

If a person cannot see that calling in legislative leaders from Michigan to pressure them into replacing electors chosen by voters with electors chosen by the state legislature then I write him off. Fortunately, or so I believe, such people are the exception. There is more than a little hyped up energy out there right now, but this can be calmed, at least somewhat, by serious Republican leaders such as Shirkey and Chatfield saying "No, we are not going to do that". Tis does not require that they trust me or even listen to me. It's people that they probably voted for saying "No, we are not going to do that". Of course we need more. But this is a crisis and history will judge leaders by what they do in a crisis.

For the rest of us, I think the main thing is to keep things simple, and to be clear that what has to be done is to not only stop this but to stop it in such a way and with such broad agreement that no one, no R, no D, no anyone will attempt it again. The optimistic view is that we come to broad agreement that this is wrong. Wrong for Trump, since Trump is now doing it, but further it is wrong forever and for anyone. I hope we manage it.

[kenberg]

As for masks, perhaps this: "Ok, I understand you have a God given right to go out without a mask. You also have a God given right to squat down and take a ---- in public. Society is interfering with these God given rights. So pull up your pants and put on your mask."

[Winstonm]

Skipping the mask for the moment, I have a thought or two on the elction steal.

 

An example from last night that I thought was a m mistake. or at least not a point we want to dwell on.

If I watch news on television it is PBS. Last night they mentioned that Trump is focusing on minority neighborhoods in his attempts to get ballots thrown out and that this is discriminatory. I don't doubt that this is true but I think it tales away from the main point. What Trump is doing is wrong, whether he is trying to get my vote thrown oout or a minority vote thrown out.

Simple is best.

Civil rights people have a point, no doubt lawyers will have a point, many many points that they wish to make, but KISS: It's wrong.

 

I have previously advocated not writing people off. But I also said that there were exceptions and this is one.

If a person cannot see that calling in legislative leaders from Michigan to pressure them into replacing electors chosen by voters with electors chosen by the state legislature then I write him off. Fortunately, or so I believe, such people are the exception. There is more than a little hyped up energy out there right now, but this can be calmed, at least somewhat, by serious Republican leaders such as Shirkey and Chatfield saying "No, we are not going to do that". Tis does not require that they trust me or even listen to me. It's people that they probably voted for saying "No, we are not going to do that". Of course we need more. But this is a crisis and history will judge leaders by what they do in a crisis.

 

For the rest of us, I think the main thing is to keep things simple, and to be clear that what has to be done is to not only stop this but to stop it in such a way and with such broad agreement that no one, no R, no D, no anyone will attempt it again. The optimistic view is that we come to broad agreement that this is wrong. Wrong for Trump, since Trump is now doing it, but further it is wrong forever and for anyone. I hope we manage it.

 

I've long said - in fact, said so in this WC - that Trump's "base" is really only around 25% of the population; however, the results of the election have me questioning that idea. 74 million votes for Trump - after seeing him in action for nearly 4 years - makes me question the argument about the numbers of "reasonable" Republicans there truly are. I'm beginning to think I underestimated the "base" - that white privilege, which is disguised racism, isn't the common denominator across Trump's base, and that common denominator covers nearly all 74 million.

[y66]

One spent the week carefully trying to build a government and preparing to take on a pandemic.

 

The other was at a mostly empty White House, using his office to try to subvert the results of an American election in a dangerous breach of democracy.

 

Week offers snapshot of how Trump, Biden approach presidency by Jill Colvin, Steve Peoples and Jonathan Lemire at AP.

[y66]

Conspiracy theories come in all shapes and sizes, but perhaps the most common form is the global cabal theory. A recent survey of 26,000 people in 25 countries asked respondents whether they believe there is “a single group of people who secretly control events and rule the world together.”

 

Thirty-seven percent of Americans replied that this is “definitely or probably true.” So did 45 percent of Italians, 55 percent of Spaniards and 78 percent of Nigerians.

Global cabal theories are able to attract large followings in part because they offer a single, straightforward explanation to countless complicated processes. Our lives are repeatedly rocked by wars, revolutions, crises and pandemics. But if I believe some kind of global cabal theory, I enjoy the comforting feeling that I do understand everything.

 

The war in Syria? I don’t need to study Middle Eastern history to comprehend what’s happening there. It’s part of the big conspiracy. The development of 5G technology? I don’t need to do any research on the physics of radio waves. It’s the conspiracy. The Covid-19 pandemic? It has nothing to do with ecosystems, bats and viruses. It’s obviously part of the conspiracy.

 

The skeleton key of global cabal theory unlocks all the world’s mysteries and offers me entree into an exclusive circle — the group of people who understand. It makes me smarter and wiser than the average person and even elevates me above the intellectual elite and the ruling class: professors, journalists, politicians. I see what they overlook — or what they try to conceal.

Rs's don't have a monopoly on kooks but the fact that half of them believe the election was stolen by Ds suggests they could have a natural majority.

[shyams]

Rs's don't have a monopoly on kooks but the fact that half of them believe the election was stolen by Ds suggests they could have a natural majority.

Could there be another explanation? Perhaps they look to their leaders (i.e. their trusted GOP leadership at the Federal or State level) to clarify the situation and tell them that Trump is wrong. When their leaders do not contradict, they tend to believe the only person who is talking; Trump!

 

In other words, Republican voters are not at fault (or exclusively at fault).

[Winstonm]

Could there be another explanation? Perhaps they look to their leaders (i.e. their trusted GOP leadership at the Federal or State level) to clarify the situation and tell them that Trump is wrong. When their leaders do not contradict, they tend to believe the only person who is talking; Trump!

 

In other words, Republican voters are not at fault (or exclusively at fault).

Yours is a reasonable hypothesis:

 

 

Authoritarian voters value centralizing power in one individual, party, or network in order to defeat a real or concocted enemy. They divide society based on loyalty to the authoritarian leader or regime, and because winning is their ultimate value, they do whatever is necessary to win, including distorting or hiding the truth, breaking norms and rules, and suppressing dissent. Because winning is their prime directive, lying, cheating, colluding with foreign adversaries, and using violence and violent threats are not seen as moral failures, but rather, acceptable tactics.

[Zelandakh]

How can that message be simplified?

#StopTheCoup

[Winstonm]

#StopTheCoup

 

Not personal enough. People need to know Trump doesn't care or even like any of them.

[thepossum]

Yours is a reasonable hypothesis:

 

 

 

It's strange how certain interests/tendencies in the world have flipped the meaning of so many political concepts over recent years

 

And, as is very common with some of them, they are so used (in their circles) to asserting everything as facts unchallenged they keep doing it :)

 

All I know is that the values I have had from being a child right up to now have not changed substantially, but my poliitcal leaning has supposedly completely moved

 

The definition of conservative in that link sounds very close to what many left and progressive people used to believe etc

 

And the label authoritarian is being used by the most authoritarian tendei to attack those who believe in people's rights, freedoms and liberty.

 

I wonder if it's tied to having to grovel to, pander to, or have become excessively dependent on a different powerful State in the world

 

I for one find it a bit alarming especially when those changing definitions have tended to rely on authority in the past

 

But whatever happened to smashing the state

 

Many so called progressive tendencies in their attack on those who value freedoms and rights have actually deserted the UN Declaration on Human Rights for starters. Although having read it recently to remind myself that it still said what I thought it did, it only seems to apply to men :) but I always took it in the spirit I thought intended that it means everyone (sorry just found an updated version)