Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[kenberg]

I believe it shows a lot of intelligence that the good Ph.D. figured out a way to make a living doing something so interesting.

 

Yes. Of course it is not as interesting as five dimensional manifolds, but certainly it is interesting.

[barmar]

Today's SMBC may explain Trump: he's quirky!

 

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1467124416-20160628.png

[kenberg]

Yes, that explains Trump. Now we have to explain why anyone would vote for him. That's tougher.

[cherdano]

Yes, that explains Trump. Now we have to explain why anyone would vote for him. That's tougher.

I am repeating myself, but it does become a little bit easier if you allow for the possibility that a few voters might harbour racial resentments. Or, if you prefer, that there are people who believe that "Today, discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks and other minorities." (That would be 64% of registered Republicans, according to a PRRI survey.)

It does make it easier. I promise.

[kenberg]

I am repeating myself, but it does become a little bit easier if you allow for the possibility that a few voters might harbour racial resentments. Or, if you prefer, that there are people who believe that "Today, discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks and other minorities." (That would be 64% of registered Republicans, according to a PRRI survey.)

It does make it easier. I promise.

 

Or it could be that a few voters get tired of unrelenting condescension Some have expressed such views. We will see how it goes.

[Al_U_Card]

Yes, that explains Trump. Now we have to explain why anyone would vote for him. That's tougher.

Easy peasy. Hil is a liar, a crook and a hypocrite. DT is just a liar and a crook. :lol:

[cherdano]

Or it could be that a few voters get tired of unrelenting condescension.

You mean, they vote for Trump instead of Hillary because cherdano writes condescending posts on BBF about Republican primary voters? I am afraid I don't think I am that influential (and I do have a healthy ego I would have thought...)

 

But seriously: if you genuinely believe that discrimination against whites is a serious problem in the US, then that is something a bit frowned to say, and no politician really represents that feeling - until Trump comes along.

 

Let me give you a comparison. Until the refugee crisis, there wasn't really much that Angela Merkel did that I liked - I am almost on the opposite end of the traditional German political spectrum. (*) But when she speaks, I can relate - she just sounds much more normal to me than other politicians. She is clear, factual and concise. But to a large extent that feeling is completely irrational - I am used to talking to scientists (if you allow me to blur the distinction between science and maths for a moment), she used to be a scientist, and hence we speak the same language. It's completely irrational, yet it'd make me much more likely to vote for her if her political positions were just a bit closer to mine.

 

Don't you think that some Republican primary voters who do feel that Whites are getting a bit short-changed in the last 5-7 years can relate to Trump on a gut level for exactly that reason?

 

 

(*) That means I am about as far away from her as a slightly Clinton-leaning Democratic primary voter from a slightly Sanders-leaning Democratic primary voter. But that's another story.

[kenberg]

Don't you think that some Republican primary voters who do feel that Whites are getting a bit short-changed in the last 5-7 years can relate to Trump on a gut level for exactly that reason?

 

 

My sample size is small. At least my known sample size. One, in fact. Becky (my spouse) hikes with a group of women on Saturdays and sometimes they come over. It's a nice group. It's fairly energetic, given the age of the members. Becky took quite a bad spill (I am getting to the point eventually) crossing a stream, falling on some rocks. She broke her wrist and damaged her right hip enough to warrant a replacement. During the recuperation all of them came by and pitched in with various ways to help. Kay (now we are getting close) was very helpful. On these hikes and elsewhere they speak of many things, but if Kay is near they do not speak of politics, not presidential politics anyway. She is adamantly pro-trump. I like every one of the women in this hiking group, I like Kay a lot, and she likes me. I have never heard her say a word that makes her sound in the least like any sort of bigot. She is healthy, educated (not a PhD but educated), enjoys life, friendly. And pro-Trump.

 

So what's up? Well, I have never met her husband. Women in my age group often defer to their husbands on political matters. Hey wait, I just said something sexist. No, I didn't. I stated something that I have observed. So perhaps that is the explanation. Or not. And upon reflection I think I will withdraw that bit of idle speculation.

 

I suppose I know other (but unannounced) Trump supporters, I haven't polled everyone. He got a lot of votes, someone out there is doing it. I certainly know and am on good terms with quite a few Republicans. And I don't find them crazy at all.

 

An old joke about women deferring to men on political matters. A woman is asked who makes the decisions in her family. She replies: My husband makes all of the important decision such as whether the country should go to war, whether to support the President's policies and so on. I make the minor ones such as where we should live, how to handle the money, how to discipline the children, where the kids should go to school, that sort of thing.

 

I hope I don't get booted for this outrageous sexism.

[WellSpyder]

An old joke about women deferring to men on political matters. A woman is asked who makes the decisions in her family. She replies: My husband makes all of the important decision such as whether the country should go to war, whether to support the President's policies and so on. I make the minor ones such as where we should live, how to handle the money, how to discipline the children, where the kids should go to school, that sort of thing.

Another woman answered that they had agreed when they got married 20 years ago that he would make the big decisions and she would make the minor ones. So far they hadn't needed any big decisions......

[Winstonm]

I'm fairly confident neither of the two women mentioned above were married to Donald Trump. <_<

[ggwhiz]

On the advise of his father a guy on his honeymoon tossed a pair of his pants to his bride and told her to try them on. Naturally she couldn't hold them up.

 

Him: So it's clear that I wear the pants in this family.

 

She tossed him a pair of her panties and told him to try them on.

 

Him: I Can't get into them.

[Winstonm]

Somehow it seems fitting that this thread has deteriorated into panties jokes. B-)

[kenberg]

Somehow it seems fitting that this thread has deteriorated into panties jokes. B-)

 

Well, I started it with my (ancient) joke about political deference. The joke you refer to is actually new to me. And I do like the punch line. I take your point, but given the current politics, a little comic relief is needed from time to time.

 

Anyway. Get serious. Right. Will do. Bringing to mind the old Alec Guiness movie Situation Hopeless but Not Serious. Oops, sorry. Can't help myself.

[ggwhiz]

Obama was in town yesterday and in his speech to the Canadian Parliament made a couple of veiled references to Trump but the press conference had all 3 Amigos pretty much savage him without naming him of course.

 

This is the first time ever that Canadian and Mexican leaders have weighed in like this in an American election year. Did anyone down there notice?

[kenberg]

Obama was in town yesterday and in his speech to the Canadian Parliament made a couple of veiled references to Trump but the press conference had all 3 Amigos pretty much savage him without naming him of course.

 

This is the first time ever that Canadian and Mexican leaders have weighed in like this in an American election year. Did anyone down there notice?

 

I am aware of widespread concern, not particularly with Canada and Mexico, but it is hardly surprising when I think about it. We must find a way to keep those sneaky Canadian hockey players from taking the jobs of real Americans. Build a wall. Or a snow fort.

 

It is obvious that I am joking, right?

 

It's a long long time from June to November. If we are going to commit national suicide, I would like to get it over with.

[olegru]

Easy peasy. Hil is a liar, a crook and a hypocrite. DT is just a liar and a crook. :lol:

Hit the spot.

[Al_U_Card]

Hit the spot.

Politics is ALWAYS a choice between the lesser of evils...

[Cyberyeti]

Politics is ALWAYS a choice between the lesser of evils...

 

Until either Satan or Cthulhu stands on the "Why vote for the lesser evil" ticket

[Al_U_Card]

Until either Satan or Cthulhu stands on the "Why vote for the lesser evil" ticket

Aren't both of them Trump supporters? lol

[Zelandakh]

Aren't both of them Trump supporters? lol

I suspect Cthulhu was the "monster" under his bed as a child, which he gazed upon once too often. Satan is merely a business partner. One wonders which of them will get the better deal at the end.

[barmar]

Obama was in town yesterday and in his speech to the Canadian Parliament made a couple of veiled references to Trump but the press conference had all 3 Amigos pretty much savage him without naming him of course.

 

This is the first time ever that Canadian and Mexican leaders have weighed in like this in an American election year. Did anyone down there notice?

Most of the airplay down here has been about the funky 3-way handshake.

 

https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/us-news/video/2016/jun/29/obama-trudeau-pena-nieto-handshake-video

[olegru]

Politics is ALWAYS a choice between the lesser of evils...

Not sure who said "Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil."

 

I believe both Satan or Cthulhu will insist they are lesser evil, especially if we have to choose between them two.

[Al_U_Card]

Not sure who said "Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil."

 

I believe both Satan or Cthulhu will insist they are lesser evil, especially if we have to choose between them two.

Perhaps if we consider them to be a sort of unholy trinity? DT makes a good front man until he needs to be sacrificed....and so on, and so on. :(

 

Can't expect Trump to change his ways or learn some new tricks (like many of his predecessors) but he appears to be what we would get, if elected. The "Ugly American" would have a face and 'do. ;)

[Al_U_Card]

From a great post at Climate etc. we have this explanation:

 

"Looking at these political positions from the perspective of worldviews, we see that Sanders appears to rally people with predominantly postmodern worldviews. The postmodern worldview arose in response to the shortcomings of the modern worldview, and therefore tends to be critical toward its model of society: its (narrow) ideas of progress, the frequently materialist and reductionist orientation of modern science, the risks and environmental impacts of its technologies, and the injustices of (global) capitalism.

 

Trump seems to mobilize people mainly with a mix of, or bridging between, traditional and modern worldviews.

 

At the same time, Trump exhibits the kind of authoritative leadership, winner mentality, attitude of disciplining through punishment, simplistic solutions and moral hierarchy that may strongly appeal to people with a traditional worldview. Some of the more modern values that Trump emphasizes, as well as symbolizes, are business success, wealth, achievement, freedom, power, and individual self-sufficiency and responsibility.

 

(Clinton seems to represent an intermediate position between these two, appealing to people with mostly modern worldviews, and bridging to postmodern ones.)

 

While the postmodern worldview only really emerged about half a century ago, it has been steadily growing ever since, extending its influence far beyond the academic and artistic elites. Older worldviews therefore tend to ‘die off’ with older generations, while newer worldviews tend to come into being with newer generations. This explains the disproportional support from younger people for Sanders, in comparison with what (a much more modernist) Clinton has been able to generate.

 

Although much has been said to explain the rise of Trump, one reason that stands out is the ways in which the more traditional (bridging to modern) oriented segments of society have been feeling encroached upon, and threatened by, the emergence of more postmodern views and values. So in some way, it is precisely the widespread rise of the postmodern value-complex that may partially explain the powerful conservative backlash that we see now, as exemplified by the Trump-movement.

 

However, more important than any typology of worldviews is the reflexive attitude a worldview-perspective supports. Worldviews are a fundamental part of individuals’ group identities, and people often react as strongly to perceived threats to these social identities as they do to defend themselves against personal attacks. We see this in the heat and emotionality of our political debates! However, once we become more aware of our (naturally partial and biased) worldviews, we start to see them in a larger context of a wider range of perspectives and values. We realize that there are also other worldviews, and that the people who hold them are not all idiots!

 

Psychological research has shown that when we are less invested in these social/worldview identities, and we can look at them with more distance and mindfulness, we are less inclined to respond as if we ourselves are threatened when our assumptions about reality are called in to question. Then a more truly open dialogue, which honors a wider range of perspectives, may start to take place. Supporting individuals to explore and reflect on their worldviews is therefore perhaps where the real change happens."

 

You can take the world-view test yourself.

[mike777]

The race may become closer and more interesting if Clinton is indicted. At first the thinking was this would force her out of the race but now perhaps not. Can She still count on the die hard 30-40% vote for Hillary no matter what.....

 

 

I think last time i checked 538 had her as a 3 or 4-1 favorite.