Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

Of course.

I wasn't.

Who would?

 

What was I doing beyond being cranky? Expressing dismay, I guess. We should be able to do better.

 

My comment was directed to the actions of Elizabeth Warren, who I feel was tricked into trying to play Dennison's game. Bad decision on her part.

 

Democrats need to stick to the issues, not try to out-Dennison Dennison.

[ldrews]

Another viewpoint:

 

https://i.redd.it/qruvog93cet11.jpg

[cherdano]

Another viewpoint:

 

https://i.redd.it/qruvog93cet11.jpg

Thank you as always for your deep and meaningful contributions to this thread. They are so eye-opening, and really change people's minds!

[ldrews]

Thank you as always for your deep and meaningful contributions to this thread. They are so eye-opening, and really change people's minds!

 

Not likely yours. Have a nice day.

[Chas_P]

Just a cranky post:

Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry? I took the 23 and me test and found that I come in fairly high on the Neanderthal scale. I mentioned it to one of my daughters, she chuckled and said something like "We Neanderthals have come a long way" and then we went on to some other topic. Why would anyone care? And if I made a big deal of my Neanderthal ancestry, perhaps people would start referring to me as Fred Flintstone, but they would be jabbing at me, not at Fred. Now I haven't looked it up, but I believe Pocahontas was not Cherokee. Does this make any sort of difference? What are we doing?

 

My point: Trump is a jerk, I have never thought otherwise, but I wish the Dems would get their act together. Nobody cares who Elizabeth Warren's ancestors were. There are larger issues, and I hope the responses can be something better than what we are now seeing. A lot better. It might also get then more votes. Someone might tell them that those of us who can barely trace our ancestry back more than one generation don't really care who has ancestors that came over on the Mayflower or who has Cherokee blood.

 

Not cranky. Very thoughtful. I've had the same thoughts. We are paying these people a pretty decent wage "to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". We need more statesmen and fewer politicians. I remember watching Sheldon Whitehouse questioning Brett Kavanaugh about farting when he was 16 years old and thinking, "We're paying this guy $174,000/year to question a Supreme Court Nominee about farting when he was a teenager?" God (if there is one) help us.

[kenberg]

My comment was directed to the actions of Elizabeth Warren, who I feel was tricked into trying to play Dennison's game. Bad decision on her part.

 

Democrats need to stick to the issues, not try to out-Dennison Dennison.

I said "I will illustrate with the trivial", I assume nobody on this thread cares whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry. But "tricked"? When someone is tricked, that person might at least give some thought to how that could happen, and if that person is a potential presidential candidate, the rest of us might be interested in the answer as well.

 

All in all, I think my dismay is a pretty realistic evaluation. The Cherokee flap can be forgotten. It's silly, she brought it on herself, but it is truly silly. Of course the silly things often have a way of hanging around. I think some sell-examination would be very useful, certainly not just on this silly issue and certainly not just by Elizabeth Warren.

 

If someone puts something over on me, I ask myself what I was thinking, how it could happen. Of course the answer will often be, in part, that I was dealing with a trickster. But the explanation should not stop there. If the tricked person is not a dullard, which Elizabeth Warren certainly is not, then there can really be a profit in thinking it through.

[Winstonm]

I said "I will illustrate with the trivial", I assume nobody on this thread cares whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry. But "tricked"? When someone is tricked, that person might at least give some thought to how that could happen, and if that person is a potential presidential candidate, the rest of us might be interested in the answer as well.

 

All in all, I think my dismay is a pretty realistic evaluation. The Cherokee flap can be forgotten. It's silly, she brought it on herself, but it is truly silly. Of course the silly things often have a way of hanging around. I think some sell-examination would be very useful, certainly not just on this silly issue and certainly not just by Elizabeth Warren.

 

If someone puts something over on me, I ask myself what I was thinking, how it could happen. Of course the answer will often be, in part, that I was dealing with a trickster. But the explanation should not stop there. If the tricked person is not a dullard, which Elizabeth Warren certainly is not, then there can really be a profit in thinking it through.

 

Ken,

 

You might like this from the NYT. I certainly agree with it.

 

Elizabeth Warren screwed up. That’s clear. Her big confirmation of Native American blood offended some Native Americans, did nothing to muffle or muzzle Donald Trump and left many journalists — me included — questioning her tactical smarts.

 

But the media focus on her misjudgment, her character and whether she had the right stuff for the White House underscores the absurdity of our current politics, in terms of the advantage it confers on the president. We expect much of anyone stepping forward to challenge him. We expect absolutely nothing of him.

 

Consider his role and behavior in the Warren saga. Her ancestry test followed his incessant mocking of her as “Pocahontas,” a schoolyard gibe from a puerile mind.

 

She was specifically provoked by his recent statement that if he ever debated her, he’d insist that she submit to such an analysis and, if it showed any Native American blood, he’d donate $1 million to the charity of her choice. But when she presented such evidence last week, he immediately backpedaled, suggesting that he’d pledged nothing of the kind.

 

Was there much attention to that? Nah. It was expected, familiar, another artless evasion atop an ever-growing Matterhorn of lies. Political observers wondered more about how her bungle squared with her presidential ambitions than about how his bogusness squared with the presidency itself. They fretted over her flaws because they — and more crucially, many American voters — long ago resigned themselves to his. Hers are quantifiable, definable. His have no bounds.

 

That’s Trump’s edge over everybody. That’s his gift. He can do no wrong because he’s all wrong. He never really shocks because he’s a perpetual shock.

 

When someone frolics at the nadir for as long as he has, there’s nowhere to go but sideways.

[y66]

From Canada condemns killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi at Global Affairs Canada:

 

Statement

 

October 20, 2018 - Ottawa, Ontario - Global Affairs Canada

 

The Honourable Chrystia Freeland, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today issued the following statement:

 

“Canada condemns the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, which the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has confirmed took place in its consulate in Istanbul.

 

“The explanations offered to date lack consistency and credibility.

 

“We also express our sincere condolences to Hatice Cengiz and the family and loved ones of Mr. Khashoggi. The pain they are enduring as a result of this tragedy is heartbreaking.

 

“We reiterate our call for a thorough investigation, in full collaboration with the Turkish authorities, and a full and rigorous accounting of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Khashoggi’s death.

 

“Those responsible for the killing must be held to account and must face justice.”

[kenberg]

Ken,

 

You might like this from the NYT. I certainly agree with it.

 

 

 

Well, yes. Or yes but.

 

I was mainly speaking of my disappointment with the Dems. " But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems."

The Ds are excellent at describing Trump as awful. I never thought otherwise. I suggest the Ds engage in a bit of self-examination, they respond that Trump is awful. Got that part. But it's not the response I was hoping for. Well, "response" is not the right word, I do not expect them to be reading my words and responding. I am hopeing for something different from what I am seeing.

 

 

We will see how this all goes. I am, as mentioned, a bit dismayed. I think the leadership might be spending too much time not only telling themselves how awful Trump is but also telling themselves how bright and wonderful they themselves are and how stupid the voters are for not seeing their goodness and their brilliance. They apparently think that they have learned the lessons of 2016. I am not so sure.

 

Anyway, it's hard to argue with dismay, if I am dismayed I am dismayed. So this is more a expression of a view than any sort of logical argument.

 

[hrothgar]

I was mainly speaking of my disappointment with the Dems. " But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems."

The Ds are excellent at describing Trump as awful. I never thought otherwise. I suggest the Ds engage in a bit of self-examination, they respond that Trump is awful. Got that part. But it's not the response I was hoping for. Well, "response" is not the right word, I do not expect them to be reading my words and responding. I am hopeing for something different from what I am seeing.

 

 

Aren't you the one who also managed to make it through the entire last election cycle without every managing to do any reading on Clinton's platform?

 

You seem to expect that the democrats have some miraculous ability to come into your house and spoon feed you content.

Its doesn't work this way. The media focuses on what people like to read, and that's salacious dirt.

 

If you want something more than that YOU needed to do some WORK.

[hrothgar]

Another viewpoint:

 

https://i.redd.it/qruvog93cet11.jpg

 

"Anecdote" is the singular form of "fact"

[Al_U_Card]

I actually asked that very question on the Politics Stack Exchange a few days ago:

 

Why is Elizabeth Warren's Native American ancestry a political issue?

Very edifying. As long as she doesn't get nominated for the SCOTUS, the lying and deceit and advantage gained shouldn't harm her potential run for CIC as no one could get lower than .... ahhhh they're all faulted humans and waiting around for Mr(s) Perfect is a waste of time.

[y66]

inane post aimed at teasing a highly regarded forum mate deleted.

[kenberg]

I have been participating here for quite a while and I am coming to think it is best for me to pull back, at least a bit. There is always more to say, but the world will continue to turn if I just decide not to say it.

 

Best wishes to all.

Ken

 

[Winstonm]

I have been participating here for quite a while and I am coming to think it is best for me to pull back, at least a bit. There is always more to say, but the world will continue to turn if I just decide not to say it.

 

Best wishes to all.

Ken

 

I hate to see you slow down your posting. You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

[kenberg]

I hate to see you slow down your posting. You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

 

Thanks. I am not completely crawling into a shell but I think that I will focus more on bridge discussions, and then there are some other things I want to do as well. Since I have been on here a lot I figured I should not just disappear with no notice.

[johnu]

Twitter Agog At Dennison Whopper That Californians Are ‘Rioting’ Over Sanctuary Cities

 

There is no lie to big, too small, or too irrevelant for Dennison. He's a one man lying machine who is completely divorced from reality. Maybe there were some posts by alt-right bloggers complaining about sanctuary cities. How this translates to rioting is something only Dennison seems to know.

[ggwhiz]

Every time I come to check out this thread my eyes wander to the Laws and Rulings section below and the thread title "Retarded Rabbit".

 

That's a clear hijacking attempt.

[Winstonm]

Twitter Agog At Dennison Whopper That Californians Are ‘Rioting’ Over Sanctuary Cities

 

There is no lie to big, too small, or too irrevelant for Dennison. He's a one man lying machine who is completely divorced from reality. Maybe there were some posts by alt-right bloggers complaining about sanctuary cities. How this translates to rioting is something only Dennison seems to know.

 

You might find this article of value.

 

The United States is on a steep learning curve. Because truth, factuality, and our very public sphere are under attack, our democracy (and republic) is in danger. The attack is devastatingly effective, partly because we have never experienced anything like this and thus are largely unprepared.

[y66]

From Democrats Lost Rural America. This Former Rodeo Star Thinks He Can Win it Back by Jack Healy at NYT:

 

BROOKINGS, S.D. — First came the Republicans, all smiles and matching blue T-shirts as they marched in this college town’s annual Hobo Day homecoming parade. Then the tractor team rolled past, and the dairy club, and the Corn Palace Shriners.

 

Finally, at the end of the line: the Democrats. Behind as usual.

 

Farmers and ranchers from this rural state once sent liberal icons like George McGovern to Congress, but these days, Democrats have all but vanished into the plains, a stark example of how far the party has tumbled in rural America. They hold no statewide elected offices in South Dakota. They make up less than 20 percent of the State Legislature. Their numbers are shrinking so fast that they rank below registered independents in a dozen counties.

 

But on a sunny Saturday, shaking hands and nudging his wheelchair up the parade route, came Billie Sutton, a 34-year-old state senator and onetime rodeo rider who is making a surprisingly competitive run for governor against South Dakota’s four-term Republican congresswoman, Kristi Noem.

 

Mr. Sutton is running as an anti-abortion conservative Democrat with cowboy cred and a stirring life story. His supporters think he can show Democrats how to start rebuilding the party in socially conservative states where the ag-heavy economy rises and falls with rain cycles and soybean prices.

 

At 23, Mr. Sutton was one of the world’s top saddle bronco riders when the horse he’d drawn in a circuit event in North Dakota reared up and smashed him into the chute in October 2007. He still remembers the horse’s name: Ruby. In an instant, Mr. Sutton was paralyzed from the waist down and his rodeo career was over.

 

“He’s a South Dakota boy,” said Tara Vanderwal, who slapped on a blue Sutton sticker at Image

 

“He doesn’t act like a politician,” said her husband, Phil, a Republican who said he is leaning toward Mr. Sutton.

 

But to have any shot in this conservative-dominated state, Mr. Sutton will need to persuade thousands more Phil Vanderwals.

 

Democrats in South Dakota have not won a governor’s race in 44 years. They have 95,000 fewer registered voters than Republicans — a huge and widening gap in a state of just 870,000 people. And Ms. Noem has a powerful supporter campaigning for her: President Trump, who won South Dakota by 30 points in 2016, and raised more than $518,000 for her at an event last month.

 

One afternoon, on the Sutton family’s ranch overlooking the Missouri River, the candidate’s father, Bill, summed up his son’s problem: “He’s going to need a lot of Trump supporters to win.”

 

In campaign ads shot on the family ranch, Mr. Sutton tells and tells the story of how his rodeo injury propelled him toward public service. He gives speeches denouncing corruption scandals and secrecy in the Republican-led state government, and pledges to give a voice to struggling farmers and ranchers.

 

To South Dakota’s handful of liberals, it sometimes feels like he is running as an anti-Democrat. He is pro-gun, anti-abortion and says he opposes a state income tax. He has a Republican running mate. He deflects when asked about social issues that divide Democrats from most South Dakotans, like whether he would have voted to confirm Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.

 

“The national party hasn’t been engaged with a good message,” Mr. Sutton said. “They haven’t been relating to people in the Midwest. It used to be fighting for the little guy.”

 

In a normal year, this would all be fodder for a Nice Try campaign that ended with a 20-point loss. But Democrats here are starved for a win, and a bitter Republican primary has left some conservatives angry with Ms. Noem’s campaign. A handful of Republicans who supported the South Dakota attorney general, Marty Jackley, in the Republican primary have now publicly signed on with Mr. Sutton.

 

The Cook Political Report recently declared the race a “toss-up” — rather than a Republican layup. Assessing the true state of the race in a thinly populated rural state like South Dakota is difficult. Partisan surveys from Democrats have showed a tight race, but there have not been any independent public polls of the race so far.

 

After four decades there’s this perception that a Democrat just can’t win,” said Tom Daschle, the former Senate majority leader from South Dakota who lost his seat in 2004. “This year that’s changing.”

[Winstonm]

It is apparent that nothing this president has done or said thus far has been horrible enough for his supporters to turn against him. I once asked a specific WC poster who supported the president if there he has a personal line-in-the-sand and he answered, no. So now I am once again wondering and will increase the target audience to all supporters of this president and ask if there is anything he could do or say that would turn you against him?

[Winstonm]

Lie Meets Truth

 

The Lie:

 

 

Donald J. Trump

✔

@realDonaldTrump

Every time you see a Caravan, or people illegally coming, or attempting to come, into our Country illegally, think of and blame the Democrats for not giving us the votes to change our pathetic Immigration Laws! Remember the Midterms! So unfair to those who come in legally.

 

7:49 AM - Oct 22, 2018

 

The Truth:

 

Republicans control every center of power in Washington. They have the White House. They control the House. They control the Senate. They have the courts, to boot. So how is it that despite their complete lack of power, Democrats are managing to stop Trump from implementing his terrific immigration plan?

 

The answer is that they aren’t. The reason Trump hasn’t signed immigration legislation is that he can’t get Republicans themselves to agree on a set of reforms. As my colleague Greg Sargent noted last week, “the bigger package of ‘tough’ measures Trump favors to ‘solve’ the larger immigration problem — a border wall, deep cuts to legal immigration — got the fewest of any votes in the Senate, meaning his solutions don’t have enough Republican support to pass Congress.”

 

Trump can’t even get Republicans to agree to fund a border wall, the centerpiece of his presidential campaign.

[Winstonm]

I figured out the position Dennison has taken on the Kashoggi murder. By claiming we can't afford to lose a supposed arms deal with the Saudis, he is simply saying, See, it's not personal; it's business.

[Chas_P]

It is apparent that nothing this president has done or said thus far has been horrible enough for his supporters to turn against him. I once asked a specific WC poster who supported the president if there he has a personal line-in-the-sand and he answered, no. So now I am once again wondering and will increase the target audience to all supporters of this president and ask if there is anything he could do or say that would turn you against him?

 

Winston, I will answer this question by asking a question….not nice I know….but here goes: When will you, your fellow democrats, congresspeople, and senators accept the fact that Donald J. Trump is the duly elected President of the United States of America and start working to try to help him be successful? All I’ve seen you do so far is bitch and moan and try to undo the results of the 2016 election because your girl lost. As I have previously stated, I am not a Trump fan. I think he is an immoral loudmouth narcissist. I do not plan to invite him and Melania over for single-malt Scotch and ribeyes on Saturday night. But, regardless of his shortcomings, I do think he is working to improve the lives of average Americans and that’s all that is important to me. As the saying goes, “A lot more would be accomplished if it didn’t matter who got the credit.” With that said, I think I will follow Ken’s lead and exit this forum. I’m not going to change your mind and you aren’t going to change mine. And when you get right down to where the rubber meets the road nothing that either of us says on an internet message board will have any more effect on the great scheme of things than a fart has on a tornado. So I bid you adieu and wish you well with your future endeavors.

[Winstonm]

Winston, I will answer this question by asking a question….not nice I know….but here goes: When will you, your fellow democrats, congresspeople, and senators accept the fact that Donald J. Trump is the duly elected President of the United States of America and start working to try to help him be successful? All I’ve seen you do so far is bitch and moan and try to undo the results of the 2016 election because your girl lost. As I have previously stated, I am not a Trump fan. I think he is an immoral loudmouth narcissist. I do not plan to invite him and Melania over for single-malt Scotch and ribeyes on Saturday night. But, regardless of his shortcomings, I do think he is working to improve the lives of average Americans and that’s all that is important to me. As the saying goes, “A lot more would be accomplished if it didn’t matter who got the credit.” With that said, I think I will follow Ken’s lead and exit this forum. I’m not going to change your mind and you aren’t going to change mine. And when you get right down to where the rubber meets the road nothing that either of us says on an internet message board will have any more effect on the great scheme of things than a fart has on a tornado. So I bid you adieu and wish you well with your future endeavors.

 

So, your answer is 'No." That is shameful.