Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[y66]

From The Cult of Trump by the NYT Editorial Board:

 

Mr. Trump’s grip on the Republican psyche is unusually powerful by historical standards because it is about so much more than electoral dynamics. Through his demagogic command of the party’s base, he has emerged as the shameless, trash-talking, lib-owning fulcrum around which the entire enterprise revolves.

 

A week ago, John Boehner, the former House speaker, neatly captured the state of his party during a policy conference in Michigan. “There is no Republican Party,” he told the crowd. “There’s a Trump party. The Republican Party is kind of taking a nap somewhere.”

[Winstonm]

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's ostracize our allies while promoting our enemies:

 

WaPo headline:

Trump calls for reinstating Russia to G-7, threatens allies on trade

 

Who the hell does this guy work for? It certainly isn't the American people or America's interests.

[barmar]

This is very unfair to Dennison. He loves white, Christian immigrants and goes out of his way to hire them for his hotels and golf course. And he married 2 of them.

Except for the people who directly attack him, I wonder if Trump really has any real opinion about these other groups. I don't think he hates immigrants, Muslims and blacks, I think he knows that his base does, so it's politically best for him to express that opinion. Trump has made many statements since he joined the presidential campaign that directly contradict opinions he expressed in interviews years earlier. He just says and acts in whatever way will endear him with his base. I'm sure that as a businessman he loved getting cheap labor from immigrants -- I'll bet there were many of them hired as maids in his hotels -- and didn't give a ***** that they might be displacing American workers; but Republican voters don't want to hear that.

 

Does he actually think he'll ever be able to get Mexico to pay for the wall? Who knows? But he'll just keep saying it because that's what his people want to hear.

 

The guy may be totally ignorant about politics and history, but he's a master showman and knows how to play people. That's what got him elected. ldrews is the poster child for people who have been totally taken in by him.

[hrothgar]

 

I wonder if Trump really has any real opinion about these other groups. I don't think he hates immigrants, Muslims and blacks, I think he knows that his base does, so it's politically best for him to express that opinion. Trump has made many statements since he joined the presidential campaign that directly contradict opinions he expressed in interviews years earlier.

 

If you look at Trump's behavior over time, one of the few consistent positions is a deep ingrained hatred for blacks which is expressed in thought, word, and deed

 

1. Systematic discrimination in Trump housing projects

2. The Central Park five

3. Casual use of words like N****r is day to day conversation

4. Discriminatory hiring practices

5. The ingrained unthinking racism that comes up consistently and effortlessly throughout his life

 

To suggest otherwise is laughable

[ldrews]

If you look at Trump's behavior over time, one of the few consistent positions is a deep ingrained hatred for blacks which is expressed in thought, word, and deed

 

1. Systematic discrimination in Trump housing projects

2. The Central Park five

3. Casual use of words like N****r is day to day ocversation

4. Discriminatory hiring practices

5. The ingrained unthinking racism that comes up consistently and effortlessly throughout his life

 

To suggest otherwise is laughable

 

And yet:

• Dr. Ben Carson, a black, is a cabinet member
  
• Trump responded to Kim Kardassian's plea for clemency
  
• Trump is considering a pardon for Mohammed Ali
  
• Elain Choa, a Tawainese-American, is a cabinet member
  
• Nikki Haley, a Indian-American, is Ambassador to the UN
  

[johnu]

Who the hell does this guy work for? It certainly isn't the American people or America's interests.

 

I don't want to embarrass myself by guessing the wrong answer, but is it a 6 letter word starting with R u _ _ _ _ ?

[hrothgar]

And yet:

• Dr. Ben Carson, a black, is a cabinet member
  
• Trump responded to Kim Kardassian's plea for clemency
  
• Trump is considering a pardon for Mohammed Ali
  
• Elain Choa, a Tawainese-American, is a cabinet member
  
• Nikki Haley, a Indian-American, is Ambassador to the UN
  

 

Larry, I have a friends who socialize with Trump.

 

The man causally refers to blacks as niggers. The fact that he appointed an uncle Tom onto his cabinet to help shore things up with the religious right is an outlier, not a refutation.

[ldrews]

Larry, I have a friends who socialize with Trump.

 

The man causally refers to blacks as niggers. The fact that he appointed an uncle Tom onto his cabinet to help shore things up with the religious right is an outlier, not a refutation.

 

Hrothgar, I have black friends that refer to other blacks as niggers. Does that make them racist?

[hrothgar]

Hrothgar, I have black friends that refer to other blacks as niggers. Does that make them racist?

 

Congratulations drews, that is probably the most ignorant comment I have ever heard you make

[ldrews]

Larry, I have a friends who socialize with Trump.

 

The man causally refers to blacks as niggers. The fact that he appointed an uncle Tom onto his cabinet to help shore things up with the religious right is an outlier, not a refutation.

 

Another thing. I don't know where you grew up, but in the 1950s, 1960s in most major cities, particularly New York, and particularly Queens where Trump grew up, every cultural group seemed to have a knickname: wops, kikes, niggers, spics, etc. Often derogatory but often not. It was what it was. The names were used universally on the street.

 

According to your definition, all of those people who grew up in those communities and used that language are racist.

[hrothgar]

Another thing. I don't know where you grew up, but in the 1950s, 1960s in most major cities, particularly New York, and particularly Queens where Trump grew up, every cultural group seemed to have a knickname: wops, kikes, niggers, spics, etc. Often derogatory but often not. It was what it was. The names were used universally on the street.

 

According to your definition, all of those people who grew up in those communities and used that language are racist.

 

I grew up in New York in the 70s and early 80s. A bit further upstate than Queens (Poughkeepsie).

 

And a hell of a lot of the folks that I grew up around were racists.

My grandparents most certainly were. (Not because they used the N word, but rather because of their firm belief that the PR's should be run out of town and their horror that I was dating a jew)

 

And the good townspeople that I lived with created a brand new school district to make sure that the blacks weren't allowed into the same schools as whites

(Spackenkill HS, created in 1973)

 

With this said and done, we aren't talking about the 50's and the 60's.

We're talking about the second decade of the 21st century

[johnu]

With this said and done, we aren't talking about the 50's and the 60's.

We're talking about the second decade of the 21st century

 

Dennison and a lot of his supporters fondly look back at the 50's and 60's, or least the early 60's. The more progressive supporters want America to be like the 1950's and early 1960's before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for obvious reason. More hardcore supporters fondly look back at the 1850's and early 1860's before the Civil War and the 13th Amendment.

[ldrews]

I grew up in New York in the 70s and early 80s. A bit further upstate than Queens (Poughkeepsie).

 

And a hell of a lot of the folks that I grew up around were racists.

My grandparents most certainly were. (Not because they used the N word, but rather because of their firm belief that the PR's should be run out of town and their horror that I was dating a jew)

 

And the good townspeople that I lived with created a brand new school district to make sure that the blacks weren't allowed into the same schools as whites

(Spackenkill HS, created in 1973)

 

With this said and done, we aren't talking about the 50's and the 60's.

We're talking about the second decade of the 21st century

 

Are we not talking about attitudes formed during the 50's and 60's? Today's children will obviously have much different attitudes, prejudices, and foibles. But you are talking about someone and others whose attitudes and characters were formed long ago. To apply today's standards to 70 year olds is disingenuous to say the least.

[ldrews]

Dennison and a lot of his supporters fondly look back at the 50's and 60's, or least the early 60's. The more progressive supporters want America to be like the 1950's and early 1960's before the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for obvious reason. More hardcore supporters fondly look back at the 1850's and early 1860's before the Civil War and the 13th Amendment.

 

Perhaps some of us look back fondly, it was indeed a simpler time. But mostly it is to learn from our past, both the good and the bad. As many have stated, to ignore history is to be doomed to repeating it.

[hrothgar]

Are we not talking about attitudes formed during the 50's and 60's? Today's children will obviously have much different attitudes, prejudices, and foibles. But you are talking about someone and others whose attitudes and characters were formed long ago. To apply today's standards to 70 year olds is disingenuous to say the least.

 

So, moral relativism is fine so long as we're applying to the benefit of old white guys?

 

Me, I call grandparents racists and Trump is a racist.

 

(and even if Trump is only pretending to be a racist to appeal to his base, wtf does this say about Trump and his base?)

[johnu]

And yet:

...

[*]Trump is considering a pardon for Mohammed Ali

 

Again I have to compliment Dennison and the best and brightest people he has brought to Washington. Oh wait! Muhammad Ali's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1971. There is no conviction to pardon but maybe he can commute the prison sentence B-)

[Winstonm]

Again I have to compliment Dennison and the best and brightest people he has brought to Washington. Oh wait! Muhammad Ali's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1971. There is no conviction to pardon but maybe he can commute the prison sentence B-)

 

And it PROVES he's neither racist nor biased against Muslims.

[johnu]

Are we not talking about attitudes formed during the 50's and 60's? Today's children will obviously have much different attitudes, prejudices, and foibles. But you are talking about someone and others whose attitudes and characters were formed long ago. To apply today's standards to 70 year olds is disingenuous to say the least.

 

So what you are saying is once a bigot and racist, always a bigot and racist? Don't bother answering, that was a rhetorical question. And it's fake news that all of today's children will have much different attitudes, prejudices, and foibles. You don't have to look any further than all the young white supremacists at the Charlottsville riots.

[ggwhiz]

Muhammad Ali's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1971.

 

Don't forget the learning from history bit. That which happened 10-15 minutes ago is as far as this admin goes before "I don't recall" kicks in. They aren't stuck in the 50's and 60's. They are stuck in their very own cesspool.

[ldrews]

So, moral relativism is fine so long as we're applying to the benefit of old white guys?

 

Me, I call grandparents racists and Trump is a racist.

 

(and even if Trump is only pretending to be a racist to appeal to his base, wtf does this say about Trump and his base?)

 

I would then say that the term racist has lost any differential meaning. Almost all of the people who grew up in that era would be racist by your definition.

[hrothgar]

I would then say that the term racist has lost any differential meaning. Almost all of the people who grew up in that era would be racist by your definition.

 

I very much disagree...

 

I know plenty of people of my grandparent's generation who were able to learn that

 

1. Its not appropriate to use hate speech to describe ethnic minorities
   
2. Discriminatory hiring practices are wrong
   
3. Redlining housing is a thing of the past
   
4. Ginning up a race war is highly problematic
   

 

More importantly, they knew that society has moved on and that there is no going back to the "good old days" when the n******s knew their place, the gays were in the closest, and men got to beat their wives.

[y66]

From The Defeat of Reason by Tim Maudlin at Boston Review:

 

People are gullible. Humans can be duped by liars and conned by frauds; manipulated by rhetoric and beguiled by self-regard; browbeaten, cajoled, seduced, intimidated, flattered, wheedled, inveigled, and ensnared. In this respect, humans are unique in the animal kingdom.

 

Aristotle emphasizes another characteristic. Humans alone, he tells us, have logos: reason. Man, according to the Stoics, is zoön logikon, the reasoning animal. But on reflection, the first set of characteristics arises from the second. It is only because we reason and think and use language that we can be hoodwinked.

 

Not only can people be led astray, most people are. If the devout Christian is right, then committed Hindus and Jews and Buddhists and atheists are wrong. When so many groups disagree, the majority must be mistaken. And if the majority is misguided on just this one topic, then almost everyone must be mistaken on some issues of great importance. This is a hard lesson to learn, because it is paradoxical to accept one’s own folly. You cannot at the same time believe something and recognize that you are a mug to believe it. If you sincerely judge that it is raining outside, you cannot at the same time be convinced that you are mistaken in your belief. A sucker may be born every minute, but somehow that sucker is never oneself.

 

A sucker may be born every minute, but somehow that sucker is never oneself.

 

The two books under consideration here bring the paradox home, each in its own way. Adam Becker’s What Is Real? chronicles the tragic side of a crowning achievement of reason, quantum physics. The documentarian Errol Morris gives us The Ashtray, a semi-autobiographical tale of the supremely influential The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962) by Thomas S. Kuhn. Both are spellbinding intellectual adventures into the limits, fragility, and infirmity of human reason. Becker covers the sweep of history, from the 1925 birth of the “new” quantum physics up through the present day. Morris’s tale is more picaresque. Anecdotes, cameos, interviews, historical digressions, sly sidenotes, and striking illustrations hang off a central spine that recounts critical episodes in the history of analytic philosophy.

[Winstonm]

The leader of the free world speaks (hint: it's not Dennison)

 

Amid headlines about tariff disputes, a basic fact is lost. The so-called Group of Seven “most industrialized countries in the world” is not just a club for the rich, but for leaders who traditionally assumed they shared the same basic values: belief in empirical facts, fundamental human freedoms, sacrosanct democratic processes, and the rule of law. All of which is to say it’s a club where Trump doesn’t fit in. He has shown he shares none of those values. Indeed, from the question of climate change to his dealings with Russia, he’s unapologetically hostile to them.

 

When French President Emmanuel Macron talked regretfully about making the G7, in fact, G6 plus one, he was essentially recognizing the fact that Trump doesn’t belong.

 

Quote from TheDailyBeast

[barmar]

So what you are saying is once a bigot and racist, always a bigot and racist? Don't bother answering, that was a rhetorical question. And it's fake news that all of today's children will have much different attitudes, prejudices, and foibles. You don't have to look any further than all the young white supremacists at the Charlottsville riots.

A racist can learn better. Even if they can't get rid of ingrained attitudes, they can at least avoid showing it in public. Especially someone who aspires to the highest office in the land.

 

As for whether we've progressed, the white supremacists in Charlottesville are not as representative of the general population as they would have been 50 years ago.

[kenberg]

From The Defeat of Reason by Tim Maudlin at Boston Review:

 

 

 

Whew. I read the entire piece. Not easy but very interesting. He is a man of strong views.

 

I liked "In his epic and epically incomprehensible masterpiece The Critique of Pure Reason (1781), Kant pulled off the grandest intellectual hocus-pocus in scholarly history." In a fit of late adolescent bravado I tried reading Kant. At one point I focused on a specific sentence and decided I was not getting up until I understood what it meant. After an hour or two, I decided it was hopeless. I now know better than to try. And Maudlin has little good to say about Wittgenstein. I could like this guy. The enemy of an enemy is a friend.

But of course he is reviewing a couple of books. The Becker book sounds great. I won't say I'll read it, I already have too many unread books that I have claimed I will read. But I might. It sounds very good. The Morris book maybe not. I expect that I would largely agree with the author. But do I want to read it? Well. We will see. Don't hold your breath.

 

But the review of both books was excellent. Well, I suppose I cannot say that with certainty unless I actually read the books. But I certainly enjoyed the review.

 

 

Thanks for the reference.