Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

In advance of the suspected spin, keep in mind that Rosenstein today did not clear anyone:

When Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein spoke to the press Friday, he repeatedly made it clear that his comments were specific to the federal grand jury indictment the special counsel's office had just announced.

[cherdano]

The best defense is definitely "they didn't really support Trump per se it was just that him becoming President would obviously profoundly damage the United States!!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[hrothgar]

FWIW, here's the piece of the story that I really want to understand...

 

Everyone expected Trump to lose

 

1. The media expected Trump to lose
   
2. The Clinton campaign ...
   
3. The Trump campaign ...
   
4. The Russians ...
   
5. You name it
   

 

What was the Russian game plan if the expected situation came to pass?

 

Given the number of Trump comments about rigged elections, I wouldn't be surprised if the real plan was for Trump to contest the election results.

And if this can be documented, we're talking high treason...

[kenberg]

FWIW, here's the piece of the story that I really want to understand...

 

Everyone expected Trump to lose

 

1. The media expected Trump to lose
2. The Clinton campaign ...
3. The Trump campaign ...
4. The Russians ...
5. You name it

 

What was the Russian game plan if the expected situation came to pass?

 

Given the number of Trump comments about rigged elections, I wouldn't be surprised if the real plan was for Trump to contest the election results.

And if this can be documented, we're talking high treason...

 

I can only speculate.

 

A: They believed just getting Trump into serious play would be highly disruptive. That certainly was correct. I gather that they also ere trying to help Sanders get the Dem nomination, perhaps thinking that also would shake things up a bit.

 

B: They were trying out some tools. Of course they had their research teams, their hackers, and their bots, but what works in one country does not necessarily work in another. So they thought of this as a trial version. If Trump had not won much of their activities would have, perhaps, been briefly noted but then forgotten. Then they could be fine-tuned for 2020.

 

C: They just figured to push as hard as they could and see what came up. This is really just a variant on B. I think a hard and cool look at HC would have shown her to be a very weak candidate.

 

D: They might well have thought they could bring some high level political operatives into some unwise liaisons that would be useful to them later. The stuff out today speaks of "unwitting participants" or something like that. That could lead to leverage.

 

To evaluate how they might have seen their chances, let's try to think like a cynical Russian for a minute, or maybe just any sort of cynic. Pick a random person, buy him a beer, and ask him to describe three or four things that come to mind regarding Hillary Clinton.

1. She was/is married to Bill Clinton, at least sort of.

2. She took on the job of putting a new health care system in place during the BC presidency. She failed.

3. She tried for the Democratic nomination in 2008. She failed.

 

I am imagining this conversation, or cynically imagined conversation, taking place back in 2014 so I won't include her failure to win in 2016.

 

More informed people might mention that she was a Senator or the Secretary of State but few of them could tell you what she accomplished in either of these positions. Perhaps people should be better informed. Perhaps I should be better informed. They aren't, I'm not. She needed votes from people that are not political junkies.

 

A cynic, or maybe just a realist, might well have foreseen an opportunity here.

 

So I don't know the answer to your question, I am speculating. I agree it's a good question. Actually I think it's a very good question.

[Al_U_Card]

In the world of international intrigue, spies and their masters are continuously testing the limits and capabilities of their enemies. Methods and means are now such that highly sophisticated and even secure systems can be probed and exploited. The greater the access the easier the penetration and all of our electronic communication and social media are a vast new sea of opportunities to explore. Pretty much business as usual and unsurprising as the US is right in there with the rest of them.

[Winstonm]

An attorney on MSNBC is suggesting that the new information tonight concerning alleged new crimes of Paul Manafort may be used to revoke bail and hold Manafort in jail until trial - which would put serious pressure on Manafort to make a deal. Reading tea leaves, it looks like Mueller may think Manafort is the key witness.

[rmnka447]

FWIW, here's the piece of the story that I really want to understand...

 

Everyone expected Trump to lose

 

1. The media expected Trump to lose
   
2. The Clinton campaign ...
   
3. The Trump campaign ...
   
4. The Russians ...
   
5. You name it
   

 

What was the Russian game plan if the expected situation came to pass?

 

Given the number of Trump comments about rigged elections, I wouldn't be surprised if the real plan was for Trump to contest the election results.

And if this can be documented, we're talking high treason...

 

To start to get a good handle on how the Russians work, you might want to go back and listen to the testimony of William Browder before the Senate Judiciary committee last summer. It was reportedly in regard to the FARA (Foreign Agents Registration Act), but the Senators quizzed him quite a bit about how the Russians operate, his view of the situation in Russia and some comments about Russian activity in the US concerning attempts to have the Magnitsky Act repealed. It is stunning. On the committee website, they've only posted his opening remarks and answers to a few questions by Dems. So unless you can find a full transcript somewhere, you'd have to watch the video of his testimony.

[hrothgar]

As is oft the case, Lawfare has some good analysis

 

https://lawfareblog.com/russian-influence-campaign-whats-latest-mueller-indictment

 

Key quotes

 

here is the [Trump] Justice Department on the record declaring that the Russia investigation isn’t, in fact, a witch hunt. It isn’t a hoax. It isn’t just a “phony Democrat excuse for losing the election,” as the president has tweeted. There really was, the Justice Department is saying, a Russian influence operation to interfere in the U.S. political system during the 2016 presidential election, and it really was at the expense of Hillary Clinton and in favor of Donald Trump.

 

Here the special counsel is stating not merely that he has “high confidence” that the interference happened. He is stating that he can prove the existence of the Russian operation in court beyond a reasonable doubt, using only admissible evidence, and that the operation violated U.S. federal criminal law.

[rmnka447]

FWIW, here's the piece of the story that I really want to understand...

 

Everyone expected Trump to lose

 

1. The media expected Trump to lose
   
2. The Clinton campaign ...
   
3. The Trump campaign ...
   
4. The Russians ...
   
5. You name it
   

 

What was the Russian game plan if the expected situation came to pass?

 

Given the number of Trump comments about rigged elections, I wouldn't be surprised if the real plan was for Trump to contest the election results.

And if this can be documented, we're talking high treason...

 

It would probably be simpler than that. How about if the Russians had hacked the Clinton e-mail server and had irrefutable evidence implicating Clinton in a pay to play bribery scheme involving the Clinton Foundation. That certainly would shake the foundations of our democracy by fomenting a constitutional crisis.

 

The important thing to understand is that the Russkis will have contingency plans for all eventualities and will try to infiltrate themselves into all sides. Note that the indictment alleges how the Russians organized both pro-Trump and anti-Trump protests to promote civil unrest.

[awm]

Here's a good article with some facts on Russian interference in the election.

[diana_eva]

It would probably be simpler than that. How about if the Russians had hacked the Clinton e-mail server and had irrefutable evidence implicating Clinton in a pay to play bribery scheme involving the Clinton Foundation. That certainly would shake the foundations of our democracy by fomenting a constitutional crisis.

 

The important thing to understand is that the Russkis will have contingency plans for all eventualities and will try to infiltrate themselves into all sides. Note that the indictment alleges how the Russians organized both pro-Trump and anti-Trump protests to promote civil unrest.

 

 

I can't understand why when you seem to accept that Russians were trying to disrupt the elections, you still don't find it a big deal how all those people around Trump find themselves entangled with the Russians, the tower meeting didn't result in anything, and claim there's no proof beyond reasonable doubt ...

[Winstonm]

I can't understand why when you seem to accept that Russians were trying to disrupt the elections, you still don't find it a big deal how all those people around Trump find themselves entangled with the Russians, the tower meeting didn't result in anything, and claim there's no proof beyond reasonable doubt ...

 

More than the entanglements, the attempts to unravel existing sanctions and refusal to impose the new ones Congress passed is a huge flashing sign that suggest quid pro quo.

 

And with the indictment describing Russians paying for a flatbed truck with a cage and woman actor to portray Hillary Clinton inside the cage, it makes those "Lock her up!" chants at the political rallies seem a lot less spontaneous.

 

Methinks the first swamp that needs to be drained is the one supplied by the Russians.

 

Edit: I'm going to add to this post as not to supercede Ken's post below. But to anyone who still supports this president, I simply ask you to read the following:

The White House took a different view, issuing a statement saying that Trump had been briefed on the matter and was “glad to see the Special Counsel’s investigation further indicates there was NO COLLUSION between the Trump campaign and Russia.”

 

Now, imagine you are the president of the United States and you are informed that the special counsel had issued a quite precise indictment of Russians and Russian-based entities for crimes against the U.S. involving the U.S. election processes.

 

Is your first thought going to be - Hey, that proves they don't have anything on me!?

 

Second edit:

The indictment also resolves any debate over whether colluding to influence the election could be criminal. The president’s supporters have frequently claimed that, even if campaign officials did collude with Russians to impact the election, it would just be politics-as-usual, and not a crime.

 

We should no longer worry about collusion - the proper phrase now is criminal conspiracy.

[kenberg]

I think history will regard Robert Mueller as one of the most important figures of the first quarter of the 21st century, quite possibly the most important.

 

He is pursuing very important work that few people would be able to do.

 

 

I'll expand a bit on this.

 

The Russians have been, are now and will be attempting to very seriously meddle in out politics in a clandestine way. For a moment, put aside any "collusion" (in quotes because the word means somewhat different things to different people). The Russians, with or without collusion, with or without "unwitting cooperation" are engaged in a substantial effort.

 

Sometimes the response is "Oh sure, all nations do this". Well, yes. Obama said it was time for Assad to go and supported efforts to bring this about. Reagan and the CIA supported the Contras. We are currently supporting Kurds. There was the Bay of Pigs. And many other such things. But Assad did not see the American intervention against him as inconsequential saying "Oh well, everyone does that" . Turkey is not happy with our support of the Kurds. And so on. The Russians are engaged in a substantial ongoing clandestine operation to disrupt our elections. "So, what, everybody does it"? "No, so plenty".

 

To my mind, Trump's dismissive attitude toward this is current collusion, deliberate blindness to a major problem. But of course then we get to arguing about the exact meaning of "collusion". So instead I will just say that it is irresponsibly stupid. In fact, so stupid that it is inexplicable except on the basis of self-interest.

 

Now back to Mueller. He is actually trying to figure out what the hell is going on, with names, places, details, documents. This is hugely, or bigly to use a Trumpism, important. Besides seriousness, this requires talent, judgment and dedication. And courage. In this age of hacking and tracking, it also requires a clean life. If the guy smoked a joint in 1968 someone will find out about it. Maybe he subscribed to Playboy in his youth. Someone will find out about it. If they don't find anything they will make something up. What he is doing is extremely important and really could probably be done by very few people. If we manage to at least partially cope with the Russian efforts this will be in no small part due to Mueller.

 

Mueller doesn't need praise from me but I think that it is important for us all to get a grip on what is at stake.

[nige1]

The Russians have been, are now and will be attempting to very seriously meddle in out politics in a clandestine way. For a moment, put aside any "collusion" (in quotes because the word means somewhat different things to different people). The Russians, with or without collusion, with or without "unwitting cooperation" are engaged in a substantial effort.

 

Sometimes the response is "Oh sure, all nations do this". Well, yes. Obama said it was time for Assad to go and supported efforts to bring this about. Reagan and the CIA supported the Contras. We are currently supporting Kurds. There was the Bay of Pigs. And many other such things. But Assad did not see the American intervention against him as inconsequential saying "Oh well, everyone does that" . Turkey is not happy with our support of the Kurds. And so on. The Russians are engaged in a substantial ongoing clandestine operation to disrupt our elections. "So, what, everybody does it"? "No, so plenty".

 

To my mind, Trump's dismissive attitude toward this is current collusion, deliberate blindness to a major problem. But of course then we get to arguing about the exact meaning of "collusion". So instead I will just say that it is irresponsibly stupid. In fact, so stupid that it is inexplicable except on the basis of self-interest.

 

Now back to Mueller. He is actually trying to figure out what the hell is going on, with names, places, details, documents. This is hugely, or bigly to use a Trumpism, important. Besides seriousness, this requires talent, judgment and dedication. And courage. In this age of hacking and tracking, it also requires a clean life. If the guy smoked a joint in 1968 someone will find out about it. Maybe he subscribed to Playboy in his youth. Someone will find out about it. If they don't find anything they will make something up. What he is doing is extremely important and really could probably be done by very few people. If we manage to at least partially cope with the Russian efforts this will be in no small part due to Mueller.

 

Mueller doesn't need praise from me but I think that it is important for us all to get a grip on what is at stake.

 

Ronald Reagan was a great pal of Margaret Thatcher, to their political benefit.. Trump's efforts to develop a rapport with Putin might be a step towards World Peace.

 

Unfortunately, the US hatred of Russians echoes 1984 and transcends political party.

 

The main disseminators of "False news" are our local "Ministries of Truth" but people of many nationalities post weird political views backed by questionable claims on social media and. in this thread., although, on the whole, the internet is a benign force for the promotion of freedom of speech.

 

It's legitimate and sensible to present arguments, to try to influence the politics of other countries, in your mutual interests. (E.g.The US president tried to stop BREXIT). If Russians can swing an election with a few dollars of advertising, then future presidential candidates should drop their current expensive PR companies and recruit them, instead.

 

Most counties engage in Espionage and Propaganda but there are differences in kind between

• Advertising controversial political views.
• Stealing email (We await credible proof that Russia was responsible)..
• Planting disruptive malware in a computer controlling a nuclear power plant .
• Funding rebellions against countries of whose politics you disapprove.

[diana_eva]

 

We should no longer worry about collusion - the proper phrase now is criminal conspiracy.

 

This sounds too pompous. It's looking like a bunch of shady business people who fell right into the Russians' game. How far they fell in, and how much was wittingly, unwittingly, or whatever words will describe it is up for investigation. Except the game is good, Americans increasingly lose trust in their own intelligence service - and Trump feeds this lack of trust. Well played Russia.

[diana_eva]

I'll leave this here. Because indeed you can not trust "facts".

 

• Stealing email (We await credible proof that Russia was responsible)..

[RedSpawn]

More than the entanglements, the attempts to unravel existing sanctions and refusal to impose the new ones Congress passed is a huge flashing sign that suggest quid pro quo.

 

And with the indictment describing Russians paying for a flatbed truck with a cage and woman actor to portray Hillary Clinton inside the cage, it makes those "Lock her up!" chants at the political rallies seem a lot less spontaneous.

 

Methinks the first swamp that needs to be drained is the one supplied by the Russians.

 

Edit: I'm going to add to this post as not to supercede Ken's post below. But to anyone who still supports this president, I simply ask you to read the following:

 

 

Now, imagine you are the president of the United States and you are informed that the special counsel had issued a quite precise indictment of Russians and Russian-based entities for crimes against the U.S. involving the U.S. election processes.

 

Is your first thought going to be - Hey, that proves they don't have anything on me!?

 

Second edit:

 

 

We should no longer worry about collusion - the proper phrase now is criminal conspiracy.

Disagree.

 

We started this kabuki theater over a year ago under the original premise that the Trump campaign and Russia had colluded to overturn the election. Retail politics indicated that this was supposed to be Clinton's coronation--especially when her campaign bankrolled the Democratic National Committee and steamrolled Bernie Sanders in the process.

 

The Special Investigator has received a robust budget and hired some of the best lawyers, but to date has delivered no prosecutable cigar regarding collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

 

Needless to say, the Special Investigator has found dirt, but that is no surprise given that Washington D.C. is a political smarmy swamp.

 

What Mueller might have found is an extensive money laundering scheme which comes as no surprise. Therefore, I give Trump much lateral discretion in this area since the Special Investigator has gone on a veritable fishing expedition to unearth potential graft and corruption of a very different nature.

 

The Russia and Trump campaign election meddling accusation was a pretext to empanel a grand jury and eventually use the machine of government to conduct a fishing expedition and punish Trump for "meddling" and "disrupting" Clinton's coronation. This is HARDBALL politics at the national level that takes no prisoners. We left the land of "principled politics" and "justice" a long time ago. We are now in the "Land of Vendetta".

[Winstonm]

This sounds too pompous. It's looking like a bunch of shady business people who fell right into the Russians' game. How far they fell in, and how much was wittingly, unwittingly, or whatever words will describe it is up for investigation. Except the game is good, Americans increasingly lose trust in their own intelligence service - and Trump feeds this lack of trust. Well played Russia.

 

What I meant is that IF collusion occurred it is no longer a simple political matter but a crime, i.e., conspiracy.

[Winstonm]

Disagree.

 

We started this kabuki theater over a year ago under the original premise that the Trump campaign and Russia had colluded to overturn the election. Retail politics indicated that this was supposed to be Clinton's coronation--especially when her campaign bankrolled the Democratic National Committee and steamrolled Bernie Sanders in the process.

 

The Special Investigator has received a robust budget and hired some of the best lawyers, but to date has delivered no prosecutable cigar regarding collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

 

Needless to say, the Special Investigator has found dirt, but that is no surprise given that Washington D.C. is a political smarmy swamp.

 

What Mueller might have found is an extensive money laundering scheme which comes as no surprise. Therefore, I give Trump much lateral discretion in this area since the Special Investigator has gone on a veritable fishing expedition to unearth potential graft and corruption of a very different nature.

 

The Russia and Trump campaign election meddling accusation was a pretext to empanel a grand jury and eventually use the machine of government to conduct a fishing expedition and punish Trump for "meddling" and "disrupting" Clinton's coronation. This is HARDBALL politics at the national level that takes no prisoners. We left the land of "principled politics" and "justice" a long time ago. We are now in the "Land of Vendetta".

 

Here is the original Rosenstein letter setting out the duties of the special prosecutor. You should take notice of (II) and (III) rather than insisting (I) is all the investigation concerned.

 

This investigation is many, many months away from conclusion so at this point there is no way to conclude either way about the president's campaign or staff or himself. What the SP has now done in following the mandates of (II) and (III) is to find that real crimes were allegedly committed by real persons and therefore any willing cooperation with those persons and activities by persons as yet unknown would also rise to the level of criminality.

 

It should be impossible at this point to pooh-pooh the Russian interference - it takes either complete and utter disdain for reason or complete faith in conspiracy theories to think otherwise. Either way, those who still promote those claims should be embarrassed enough to stop.

[nige1]

You can be ignorant of the facts but that does not alter the reality of a fact. Ignorance of facts can lead to erroneous conclusions. I doubt there is one among us who has not rowed that leaky boat. The only way to plug those holes is with solid information. Solid information is not found on the opinion isle or in the talk-show cooler. It comes from sources whose interest is presenting facts to the best of their ability, and the only way to do that is to multi-source. In the same vein, denial of facts because of distaste for those particular facts is not the same as genuine ignorance.

By and large, I agree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKwJI9axblQ

[hrothgar]

Ronald Reagan was a great pal of Margaret Thatcher, to their political benefit.. Trump's efforts to develop a rapport with Putin might be a step towards World Peace.

 

The only peace that one is going to enjoy with monsters like Putin and Trump in charge is the peace of the graveyard.

 

Nigel, do you even have the most basic clue what kinds of atrocities Putin is responsible for?

[nige1]

The only peace that one is going to enjoy with monsters like Putin and Trump in charge is the peace of the graveyard. Nigel, do you even have the most basic clue what kinds of atrocities Putin is responsible for?

We're butterflies but Russians are moths? :)

All sides perpetrate enough atrocities to necessitate urgent peaceful resolution.

[hrothgar]

We're all butterlies but Trump, Putin and the Russians are moths? :)

 

All sides perpetrate enough atrocities to necessitate urgent peaceful resolution.

 

You know that there used to be a city called Grozny, right?

You know that under Putin, the Russians have invade several neighboring countries?

You know that Putin regularly has political opponents and journalists murdered?

 

I readily admit, the US has done some awful things.

I would welcome seeing Dick Cheney hang for crimes against humanity.

I fear the Trump is going to start a war with North Korea because "he can"

 

However, the fact that the US has *****ed up in the past does not mean that we should e excusing Putin's many many sins...

[y66]

This sounds too pompous. It's looking like a bunch of shady business people who fell right into the Russians' game. How far they fell in, and how much was wittingly, unwittingly, or whatever words will describe it is up for investigation. Except the game is good, Americans increasingly lose trust in their own intelligence service - and Trump feeds this lack of trust. Well played Russia with assists by McConnell, Ryan, Nunes & their comrades in the GOP and on Fox.

fyp

[Winstonm]

Speaking about James Risen's piece in The Intercept, last night in an interview he made the comment that after a year in office we still don't know whether or not the president of the United States is an agent of a foreign power.

 

It is actually a fair question, which makes it even more remarkable, especially when we keep in mind that reporting indicated that once in office his administration immediately began working on ways to remove the existing Russian sanctions, that he refused to carry through Congress' new act to sanction Russia, and since the indictment has come out he still has not condemned Russia for its actions.