Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

I think it is important that we all understand the background and the psychology of many right-wing faithful.

 

PORTLAND, Ore. ― It was late morning in an artsy cafe, the smell of coffee and baked goods sweetening the air, and Ashley Bishop sat at a table, recalling a time when she was taught that most of secular American society was worthy of contempt.

 

Growing up in private evangelical Christian schools, Bishop saw the world in extremes, good and evil, heaven and hell. She was taught that to dance was to sin, that gay people were child molesters and that mental illness was a function of satanic influence. Teachers at her schools talked about slavery as black immigration, and instructors called environmentalists “hippie witches.”

 

Bishop’s family moved around a lot when she was a child, but her family always enrolled her in evangelical schools.

 

So when Bishop left school in 2003 and entered the real world at 17, she felt like she was an alien landing on Planet Earth for the first time.

 

Unless you have lived inside the bubble of church, family, school, it is difficult to imagine how these people cannot see what is obvious to us.

 

Liberal thinkers sometimes need to be reminded that if not for luck of birth, they, too, may have had the same challenges to overcome.

[andrei]

Since the original link did not give a reference for this, details can be found here.

 

 

Found the smoking gun in the article you are referring to:

 

I know Croatia very well. I’ve been to Croatia about 18-20 times over the past 21 years, including Dubrovnik and Hvar about 5 times. If I wanted to meet someone in secret without anybody knowing, (or just swim in the nude), I’d go to a hidden cove on one of the 1,000+ islands off the Croatian coast in a small boat, perhaps the southwest side of Hvar, which is pretty desolate.

 

From Dubrovnik, Ivanka and Kushner went to Hvar, which is an island about 3-4 hours by boat. Ivanka herself documented being in both Dubrovnik and Hvar on Instagram. What’s interesting is that she and American media sources waited until August 14th to post pics and stories, while Croatian media reported her in Dubrovnik on August 12th and arriving August 11th. Why wait and post both pics days later? Was she trying to hide something?

 

She goes to Hvar to meet somebody in secret.

Then she post pictures on Instagram showing she was in Hvar, because, you know, she was there to meet somebody in secret.

But wait, she posts the pictures 2 days later? Obviously there is something to hide, everybody who is clean post pictures on the spot.

[jjbrr]

yep, andrei, you found the smoking gun. good job, buddy. we're all proud of you.

[ldrews]

Trump keeps another campaign promise: https://amp.businessinsider.com/trump-israel-embassy-jerusalem-capital-2017-12

[jjbrr]

Trump keeps another campaign promise: https://amp.businessinsider.com/trump-israel-embassy-jerusalem-capital-2017-12

 

The decision to shake off warnings from senior officials such as Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and align himself instead with prominent proponents of the move, including Vice President Pence and major donor Sheldon Adelson, underscored the president’s determination to break with past policy and keep a key campaign pledge — despite the potential risks to U.S. interests in the region and the goal of Middle East peace.

 

“It’s insane. We’re all resistant,” said one Trump confidant who recently spoke to the president about it. “He doesn’t realize what all he could trigger by doing this.”

 

Several advisers said he did not seem to have a full understanding of the issue and instead appeared to be focused on “seeming pro-Israel,” in the words of one, and “making a deal,” in the words of another.

[ldrews]

 

 

We certainly don't know how this will turn out. Opinions seem to be divided. But Trump seems to think that because he made a campaign promise, he should keep it. How novel! How naive!

[PassedOut]

Found the smoking gun in the article you are referring to:

 

She goes to Hvar to meet somebody in secret.

Then she post pictures on Instagram showing she was in Hvar, because, you know, she was there to meet somebody in secret.

But wait, she posts the pictures 2 days later? Obviously there is something to hide, everybody who is clean post pictures on the spot.

I find that folks with weak character tend to express their views indirectly. Your post here seems indirect. A word to the wise.

[jjbrr]

We certainly don't know how this will turn out. Opinions seem to be divided. But Trump seems to think that because he made a campaign promise, he should keep it. How novel! How naive!

 

He's getting paid by Adelson for this. I know you're not capable of any independent thought, so this idea will be lost on you, but as with most things you seem to support this is not in your best interest.

[ldrews]

He's getting paid by Adelson for this. I know you're not capable of any independent thought, so this idea will be lost on you, but as with most things you seem to support this is not in your best interest.

 

Do you have any evidence to support that assertion?

[jjbrr]

Do you have any evidence to support that assertion?

 

I made several assertions. Which would you like evidence of?

 

As for getting paid: yes. It should not be difficult for you to find information about how much Adelson has donated to Trump at different times (that we know of).

 

As for independent thought: your ability to parrot talking points and not provide any substance is very well documented

 

As for it not being in your best interest: I suppose that depends on a number of different things. Perhaps you enjoy the world being a shitty place for other people to live; if that's true, I don't really care to know about it, though it would unlikely change much about how I feel about you. How do you feel about things like online poker, for example?

[Winstonm]

 

 

Trump made a campaign promise to be an idiot?

[jjbrr]

I find that folks with weak character tend to express their views indirectly. Your post here seems indirect. A word to the wise.

This post has been on a wild ride

[RedSpawn]

I found the article helpful but troubling.

 

 

 

This reminds me of the message attributed to an aide from George W. Bush era - that when we act we create our own reality.

 

At least for those who are immersed into the right-wing "community", the quote is accurate, and that is both frightening and sad.

The article uses the term a "real conservative". What exactly does that political ideology entail? And how does that differ from a RINO?

 

If a Republican compromises with the Democratic Party on important legislation, is he RINO because he isn't an obstructionist going for an all-or-nothing mentality?

 

We are indeed in the midst of a culture identity and political ideology war. It will get worse as we grind down to a service economy full of lower wage prospects. Financial insecurity and mediocre job prospects for the displaced will cultivate a climate of fear which is great for propaganda.

[Al_U_Card]

In the struggle for power and control, zealotry fueled by polarization is old hat. This thread exemplifies the us/them meme. Issues can only be addressed when common ground and interests are explored and exploited. Castigation and vituperation only serve to exacerbate the gulf that separates us from each other. Do unto others etc.

[ldrews]

Trump made a campaign promise to be an idiot?

 

Those who keep their promises and agreements are easier to trust in future dealings, idiots or not. Do you not feel that it is important to keep promises and agreements?

[RedSpawn]

In the struggle for power and control, zealotry fueled by polarization is old hat. This thread exemplifies the us/them meme. Issues can only be addressed when common ground and interests are explored and exploited. Castigation and vituperation only serve to exacerbate the gulf that separates us from each other. Do unto others etc.

All of this manmade chaos results from our refusal to believe that we all are a part of each other. When a man's ideology or politics differ from his neighbor, he assumes the neighbor has a genetic or mental defect. This labeling and separation heightens the divisiveness and undermines national unity.

[hrothgar]

Those who keep their promises and agreements are easier to trust in future dealings, idiots or not. Do you not feel that it is not important to keep promises and agreements?

 

So by that logic, it would be wrong for Trump to

 

1. Pull out of the Paris Climate Accord

2. Break a treaty that the US signed with Iran

3. Pull out of NAFTA

4. Break long standing US policy regarding the status of Jerusalem

 

It was incredibly stupid of Trump to have ever made this promise to his base.

 

Once he did so, he put himself in a position of either

 

1. Breaking his word to his base

2. Breaking the US's commitments to the world

[ldrews]

So by that logic, it would be wrong for Trump to

 

1. Pull out of the Paris Climate Accord

2. Break a treaty that the US signed with Iran

3. Pull out of NAFTA

4. Break long standing US policy regarding the status of Jerusalem

 

 

1. First, Trump did not make an agreement to abide by the Paris Climate Accord. In fact I remember that he campaigned against it. Second, although I do not know the details, most such agreements have a process for exiting the agreement. In this case the agreement was never ratified by Congress. Third, do you really subscribe to the notion that a country's leaders are bound by the agreements of previous leaders. If it is not codified into law by the Congress and signed off on by the President, then it is not binding on the US as a nation.

 

2. I believe that the allegation is that Iran is/was not living up to the agreement. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

3. NAFTA has specific procedures for withdrawing from the agreement, which procedures the US is following. "Pulling out" of the agreement was built into the agreement.

 

4. Long standing US policy is no justification for continuing a process that is not working. No or very little progress has been made in the peace talks for many years. And the action just implements a law passed by Congress in 1985, I believe. Presidents since then have been promising to take this action but have not had the balls to do so. Apparently Trump does.

 

Tell me, do you believe in divorce for married couples who no longer get along with each other? Or, having once made the agreement, the couple is stuck for life.

[jjbrr]

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump

 

Thank you to the LGBT community! I will fight for you while Hillary brings in more people that will threaten your freedoms and beliefs.

10:31 AM - 14 Jun 2016

 

President Trump's press secretary said her boss would have no problem with businesses hanging antigay signs that explicitly state they don't serve LGBT customers.

 

Tell us more about people of integrity, ldrews.

[Winstonm]

The tactic is lame and getting old: I've heard that he is still beating his wife. Do you have any evidence he's not beating his wife?

[hrothgar]

1. First, Trump did not make an agreement to abide by the Paris Climate Accord. In fact I remember that he campaigned against it. Second, although I do not know the details, most such agreements have a process for exiting the agreement. In this case the agreement was never ratified by Congress. Third, do you really subscribe to the notion that a country's leaders are bound by the agreements of previous leaders. If it is not codified into law by the Congress and signed off on by the President, then it is not binding on the US as a nation.

 

I consider it far more important that a country live up to its promises than I do any individual president or party.

The US has a change in administration every 4-8 years. One would hope that the country itself would last longer.

 

Previous Presidents have had the good sense not to randomly contradict long standing US policies in fits of pique.

 

2. I believe that the allegation is that Iran is/was not living up to the agreement. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

 

Lets see

 

A. The Secretry of State is on record as testifing that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

B. The Secretary of Defense is on record as testifying that Iran is meeting is treaty obligations

C. Various members of the NSC have testified that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

 

<And of course, all of the other counter parties to the treaty>

 

That seems like a really really good start

 

3. NAFTA has specific procedures for withdrawing from the agreement, which procedures the US is following. "Pulling out" of the agreement was built into the agreement.

 

We're arguing about should, not "can"

 

4. Long standing US policy is no justification for continuing a process that is not working. No or very little progress has been made in the peace talks for many years. And the action just implements a law passed by Congress in 1985, I believe. Presidents since then have been promising to take this action but have not had the balls to do so. Apparently Trump does.

 

I want a President with a brain, not "balls"...

[ldrews]

I consider it far more important that a country live up to its promises than I do any individual president or party.

The US has a change in administration every 4-8 years. One would hope that the country itself would last longer.

 

Previous Presidents have had the good sense not to randomly contradict long standing US policies in fits of pique.

 

 

 

Lets see

 

A. The Secretry of State is on record as testifing that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

B. The Secretary of Defense is on record as testifying that Iran is meeting is treaty obligations

C. Various members of the NSC have testified that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

 

<And of course, all of the other counter parties to the treaty>

 

That seems like a really really good start

 

 

 

We're arguing about should, not "can"

 

 

 

I want a President with a brain, not "balls"...

 

You did not answer my question: Do you believe in/support divorce?

[Zelandakh]

A. The Secretry of State is on record as testifing that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

B. The Secretary of Defense is on record as testifying that Iran is meeting is treaty obligations

C. Various members of the NSC have testified that Iran is meeting its treaty obligations

Background links: A, B, C and D (Britain, France, Germany and the IAEA).

 

It is more than this though. The POTUS is required to report every 90 days on whether Iran is complying with the JCPOA and in the previous reviews (April and July) this was indeed confirmed.

 

Indeed the compliance is not really at question, with the most being claimed that Iran is not living up to the "spirit" of the agreement, whatever that means. The 90 day report given by the POTUS states that in addition to compliance “suspension of sanctions [is] appropriate and proportionate to the specific and verifiable measures taken by Iran with respect to terminating its illicit nuclear program” as well as “vital to the national security interests of the United States.” This is the area where DT gets enough wriggle room to refuse certification.

 

Let us keep an open kind though - it might be that Trump is trying to sabotage the JCPOA for the simple reason that Obama signed it, however reluctantly, and it was subsequently seen internationally as somewhat successful. On the other hand there really is some longer-term plan behind the move. If there is and it works out well I will give him credit for the decision; until then the evidence suggests that this is a risky and dangerous move and perhaps something that should have been discussed with other Western allies before committing to it.

[hrothgar]

You did not answer my question: Do you believe in/support divorce?

 

Conservatives frequently seem to confuse the US government with some kind of family "family"...

This normally happens with the budget process, but here's a bizarre example when you are trying to conflate a divorce with treaty obligations.

 

So, simply put, I see no point in wasting time answering your question. It doesn't lead anywhere productive.

 

Why not focus on actual facts instead

 

You claimed

 

" I believe that the allegation is that Iran is/was not living up to the agreement. Do you have evidence to the contrary?"

 

Zelandakh and I posted all sorts of information showing that your "beliefs" are not in accordance with reality.

 

Does this impact your beliefs in any way, shape, or manner?

[Zelandakh]

You did not answer my question:

And you didn't answer my question, twice:

if I am aware that someone I know has committed a felony and not only choose not to report it but also actively attempt to derail the investigation, that is going to land me in some very hot water. When the POTUS does it, is it just carrying out the duties of the Executive branch?

I notice he still has not commented on the apparent admission from DT that he knew of Flynn's felony at the time of trying to prevent the investigation. Perhaps he would prefer to take up that theme.

This is not an isolated incidence. Indeed it is so common that I would not normally call you out on it but you seem to be in a mode where you want to call others "evasive". That is hypocritical enough to take the time to look up the previous quotes. I am sure other posters can find half a dozen or more similar cases where you have simply avoided commenting and chosen instead to troll on a different subject.

 

Sadly Winston is right on this - it is lame and it does get old.