Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Al_U_Card]

So, Winston, are all of your declared contracts now NO TRUMP?

 

(Sorry for injecting some humour there....)

[rmnka447]

It's this kind of crapola that influences the beliefs of many evangelical Protestants. both men and women:

 

 

 

Can't even make the tired argument about old verses new as these are New Testament verses.

 

So, you criticize evangelicals if they find an interpretation of the relationship between men and women that you disagree with.

 

Yet, if a conservative even mentions anything about the relationship between men and women taken by Islam, you label such criticism islamophobic and label them bigots.

 

Aren't you engaging in a little hypocrisy?

 

By your own standards, wouldn't it be fair to call you a christianophobe and call you out for your bigotry against evangelicals also?

 

The funny thing is that many Evangelicals and Muslims are OK with how their faith/religion define that relationship and espouse it. And, you know that is allowed in this country, it's called freedom of religion.

[Cyberyeti]

So, you criticize evangelicals if they find an interpretation of the relationship between men and women that you disagree with.

 

Yet, if a conservative even mentions anything about the relationship between men and women taken by Islam, you label such criticism islamophobic and label them bigots.

 

Aren't you engaging in a little hypocrisy?

 

By your own standards, wouldn't it be fair to call you a christianophobe and call you out for your bigotry against evangelicals also?

 

The funny thing is that many Evangelicals and Muslims are OK with how their faith/religion define that relationship and espouse it. And, you know that is allowed in this country, it's called freedom of religion.

 

I criticise both religions equally for that, if they want to take a 19th century (or worse) view of what men and women are, I will tell either that the world has moved on.

[Zelandakh]

And, you know that is allowed in this country, it's called freedom of religion.

You do indeed have the right to be as sexist as you like providing you do so in private. However, the moment you take that public and disadvantage a woman through it, you are moving into a different area and are likely to be risking prosecution. And if you have sex with a 14 year old girl because Corinthians says she is created for men to use, well I am sorry but your freedom of religion is not going to help you there one bit, and rightfully so.

[cherdano]

How do troll warnings work? Is it like soccer where you need 2 of them before you're sent off?

You should read "Troll warning" as in "Deer warning". I am not warning the deer to get off my lawn the road. I am warning the drivers not to hit the deer, as it might damage their car.

[hrothgar]

So, you criticize evangelicals if they find an interpretation of the relationship between men and women that you disagree with.

 

Yet, if a conservative even mentions anything about the relationship between men and women taken by Islam, you label such criticism islamophobic and label them bigots.

 

Aren't you engaging in a little hypocrisy?

 

By your own standards, wouldn't it be fair to call you a christianophobe and call you out for your bigotry against evangelicals also?

 

The funny thing is that many Evangelicals and Muslims are OK with how their faith/religion define that relationship and espouse it. And, you know that is allowed in this country, it's called freedom of religion.

 

I readily agree that that a great deal of the criticisms of both "Islam" and "Evangelicals" paint with an overly broad brush...

 

For example, in my experience when Americans are complaining about "Islam" most of their examples are specific to either Wahhabism or, alternatively, critiquing cultural practices that are common around the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden which they confuse with "Islam". (Female Genital Mutilation being a prototypical example)

 

In a similar vein, the expression evangelical can be used to refer to a lot of different things. Some folks use Evangelical to refer to most any mainline Protestant Church (for example, I was raised in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America). Others associate the term with Bebbington's definition which focuses on Conversionism, Biblicism, Crucicentrism, and Activism. And, yet others use the term to describe conservative fundamentalists.

 

So, I guess that the lesson is, when we want to insult knuckle dragging pedophiles who are either muslims or evangelicals, we should not be castigating them because they believe in Islam or because they are evangelicals, but rather because they are conservatives.

[Winstonm]

So, you criticize evangelicals if they find an interpretation of the relationship between men and women that you disagree with.

 

Yet, if a conservative even mentions anything about the relationship between men and women taken by Islam, you label such criticism islamophobic and label them bigots.

 

Aren't you engaging in a little hypocrisy?

 

By your own standards, wouldn't it be fair to call you a christianophobe and call you out for your bigotry against evangelicals also?

 

The funny thing is that many Evangelicals and Muslims are OK with how their faith/religion define that relationship and espouse it. And, you know that is allowed in this country, it's called freedom of religion.

 

Let me help your understanding a bit as I helped my own. I grew up surrounded by evangelical Christians, so I know this group and I know them well. I knew no followers of Islam. I had to research and learn about Islam, and one thing I learned is that Muslim refers to the culture while Islam refers to the ideology. If you are talking about followers of the religion, they are Islamics; if you are talking about a group of people, they are Muslim.

 

Hope that helps.

 

On to your points. You obviously have not been around the WC long enough to know that I have little use for supernatural beliefs of any type - so it doesn't matter to me if it is a Christian belief or an Islamic belief - to me, they are equally ridiculous. It is equally ridiculous, then, for two separate groups who both believe in magic to fail to understand that their problem stems from their silly ideas about the reality of magic. Stupid is an open borders country.

 

Hope that helps.

 

And finally, evangelicals. Let me help your understanding here:

We believe that the Bible is the Word of God; without error as originally written. Its content has been preserved by Him, and is the final authority in all matters of doctrine and faith-above all human authority

 

I quoted the verses that these evangelicals believe supports the view that women should be lesser - subservient to men. Evangelicals and followers of Islam have the same notions about the inequality of women - yet each claims the other is wrong because they have the wrong coach on their team. Open borders, again.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Btw, is there a democrataphobe? Do you have a mirror? :P

[Winstonm]

I readily agree that that a great deal of the criticisms of both "Islam" and "Evangelicals" paint with an overly broad brush...

 

For example, in my experience when Americans are complaining about "Islam" most of their examples are specific to either Wahhabism or, alternatively, critiquing cultural practices that are common around the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden which they confuse with "Islam". (Female Genital Mutilation being a prototypical example)

 

In a similar vein, the expression evangelical can be used to refer to a lot of different things. Some folks use Evangelical to refer to most any mainline Protestant Church (for example, I was raised in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America). Others associate the term with Bebbington's definition which focuses on Conversionism, Biblicism, Crucicentrism, and Activism. And, yet others use the term to describe conservative fundamentalists.

 

So, I guess that the lesson is, when we want to insult knuckle dragging pedophiles who are either muslims or evangelicals, we should not be castigating them because they believe in Islam or because they are evangelicals, but rather because they are conservatives.

 

LoL.

[Winstonm]

So, Winston, are all of your declared contracts now NO TRUMP?

 

(Sorry for injecting some humour there....)

 

No, unfortunately the contract with America has been trumped.

[awm]

The Atlantic does it again:

 

I thought this is a very good article, and it brings together some of the things I've thought about this election for a while. Some of the salient points (and I encourage people to read the article, but it's long):

 

1. Trump is not really a new phenomenon -- candidates running with this sort of racist/nationalist rhetoric have been running (and winning a lot of white votes) for quite some time.

2. The narrative about "struggling white working class" voters doesn't really hold up to analysis.

3. There's a lot of racism here, but it's not exactly individual racism but rather a refusal to understand privilege and the real issues faced by minority communities.

[Al_U_Card]

I thought this is a very good article, and it brings together some of the things I've thought about this election for a while. Some of the salient points (and I encourage people to read the article, but it's long):

 

1. Trump is not really a new phenomenon -- candidates running with this sort of racist/nationalist rhetoric have been running (and winning a lot of white votes) for quite some time.

2. The narrative about "struggling white working class" voters doesn't really hold up to analysis.

3. There's a lot of racism here, but it's not exactly individual racism but rather a refusal to understand privilege and the real issues faced by minority communities.

Indeed, also the differences between opportunity and privilege. Removing or reducing P generally increases and improves O. Much like the fallacious nature of trickle-down economics, the down-trodden are mainly so owing to being stepped on.

[kenberg]

LOL. Have you met our education system?

 

Being Thanksgiving I am in a thankful frame of mind and my school teachers come to mind. Thanks.

 

I actually did learn about the general notions Zel was referring to although I either did not learn or do not remember the names Crittenden and Corwin.

 

About education: When I was in 8th grade (I turned 13 during 8th grade, as clarification for those from other lands) I set out to get bad grades. My mother was always bragging to the neighbors about my good grades, this set me off, do I decided to do something about it. I almost overdid it but I still graduated and they sent me on to high school. In my Sophomore year, I turned 15 that year, I decided to be cool and started using double negatives along with effing this and effing that.

 

Teachers have one hell of a tough job. So thanks again. I imagine the system could be better but we students had/have a responsibility also.

 

So thanks again.

[Winstonm]

I thought this is a very good article, and it brings together some of the things I've thought about this election for a while. Some of the salient points (and I encourage people to read the article, but it's long):

 

 

3. There's a lot of racism here, but it's not exactly individual racism but rather a refusal to understand privilege and the real issues faced by minority communities.

 

I like to think of it as "deniable racism", as in, "I have nothing against "x,y,z" but the government is handing jobs/money/favors/etc. to "x,y,z" and discriminating against whites and/or Christians. Therefore, I am not racist but a victim of discrimination.

 

Candidate Joe/Josephine Shmoe says my feelings are valid and he/she will fix the discrimination against whites and Christians. I will vote for him /her.

 

These are the same people who claim, after 200 years of slavery and/or discrimination against minorities, that it is unfair when company A hires 1000 people when the U.S. population is 20% African Americans and the Supreme Court requires 150 jobs to go to African Americans.

 

Maybe we(the U.S.A.) is in need of a slogan or bumper sticker: White privilege IS racism!

[hrothgar]

Public confirmation that Flynn has flipped.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/us/politics/flynn-mueller-russia-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[Winstonm]

Public confirmation that Flynn has flipped.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/us/politics/flynn-mueller-russia-trump.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

 

That would explain why last night Trump's lawyer made it clear that Trump would not pay any of the legal fees for Flynn, although he was planning to pay for others caught up.

[y66]

You should read "Troll warning" as in "Deer warning". I am not warning the deer to get off my lawn the road. I am warning the drivers not to hit the deer, as it might damage their car.

I intended the tenor of my yellow card metaphor to be the drivers in your deer warning metaphor. This seemed clear in what I took to be the context: <troll> <warn> <reply to troll> but I see now that the actual context was: <troll> <warn> <troll> <troll> <reply to troll>.

[ggwhiz]

Candidate Joe/Josephine Shmoe says my feelings are valid and he/she will fix the discrimination against whites and Christians. I will vote for him /her.

 

There is only 1 time in American history when immigrants completely destroyed the fabric of a nation and we celebrated it yesterday

[RedSpawn]

There is only 1 time in American history when immigrants completely destroyed the fabric of a nation and we celebrated it yesterday

America's past is so twisted, distorted, and self-serving. Are there enough focal lenses in the world to provide the proper context of our grand heist and kidnapping of young America from her original occupants?

 

Rumor has it that we did it all legal and that all transactions and contracts were executed at arm's length? Hmmmmm.

[Winstonm]

McClatchy reports that Paul Manafort was in much deeper with Russia and Putin than previously thought.

 

What’s now known leads some Russia experts to suspect that the Kremlin’s emissaries at times turned Manafort into an asset acting on Russia’s behalf. “You can make a case that all along he ...was either working principally for Moscow, or he was trying to play both sides against each other just to maximize his profits,” said Daniel Fried, a former assistant secretary of state who communicated with Manafort during Yanukovych’s reign in President George W. Bush’s second term.

 

Perhaps this explains why he offered his services for free to the campaign.

[blackshoe]

If Kelley is as smart as advertised, why did he join the Marine Corps?

You think anyone who serves in the military is stupid? Or is it just the Marine Corps?

[Winstonm]

You think anyone who serves in the military is stupid? Or is it just the Marine Corps?

 

No, I do not.

 

I think the choice of the Marine Corps is an odd one - for anyone - but I may be confusing enlistees and officers, which can certainly be different. What is your take on it?

[blackshoe]

As I get it, nobody gives a damn if the players turn their brains into mush running into each other at full tilt as long as they don't kneel before the start of the game. This is beyond my understanding.

 

In Beyond This Horizon Robert Heinlein told the story of "The Man From the Past", a stockbroker who, around the time of the 1929 stock market crash, is placed in suspended animation, and wakes up several hundred years later into a society where his learned skills are obsolete. There is no money, no markets, no "want". So he's trying to figure out what to do with the rest of his life when he's introduced to a man who designs games. Not for a living, but apparently to avoid dying from terminal boredom. Anyway, the Man From The Past describes football to this guy, who says "Sounds interesting. How many players die during a game?" Shocked, TMFTP replies "no one dies!" "Oh," says our game designer, "We can fix that!"

 

Bread and circuses...

[Winstonm]

This may be an important move in the Russian investigation.

[blackshoe]

No, I do not.

 

I think the choice of the Marine Corps is an odd one - for anyone - but I may be confusing enlistees and officers, which can certainly be different. What is your take on it?

I think people have a lot of different reasons for serving. As for the enlisted/officer differentiation, some people when they first join up aren't - yet - qualified to be officers. Some of those later become officers. One of my classmates at OCS had ten years of prior enlisted service, during the last three or so of which the Navy sent him to college. When we were commissioned after OCS, I was commissioned Ensign, he was commissioned Lieutenant {jg). I ran into him again some 12 years later. I'd been a LCDR for two or three years, and did not expect to be promoted to CDR before another two. He had just made CDR. I had prior enlisted service myself - but only three years, and it was in the Army. I didn't like the Army. Mostly I didn't like the mud, and getting shot at, and being at the bottom of the hierarchy. Not necessarily in that order. :-) After I finished grad school I thought long and hard about rejoining — and eventually joined the Navy as an officer. It seemed at the time like a good idea, and I don't regret it. Other people have gone different routes in the service, for many different reasons.

 

Why join the Marine Corps? For many it was "my father and grandfather were marines". For a few it was 'the judge said "Marines or jail, take your pick"'. For some, especially after 9/11, it was "no, we can't let them get away with this." That last, other services too.

 

There are some incompetents in the military, just as there are some incompetents in any field. And yes, over the years I met a few, a very few, who were truly stupid.

[Winstonm]

I think people have a lot of different reasons for serving. As for the enlisted/officer differentiation, some people when they first join up aren't - yet - qualified to be officers. Some of those later become officers. One of my classmates at OCS had ten years of prior enlisted service, during the last three or so of which the Navy sent him to college. When we were commissioned after OCS, I was commissioned Ensign, he was commissioned Lieutenant {jg). I ran into him again some 12 years later. I'd been a LCDR for two or three years, and did not expect to be promoted to CDR before another two. He had just made CDR. I had prior enlisted service myself - but only three years, and it was in the Army. I didn't like the Army. Mostly I didn't like the mud, and getting shot at, and being at the bottom of the hierarchy. Not necessarily in that order. :-) After I finished grad school I thought long and hard about rejoining — and eventually joined the Navy as an officer. It seemed at the time like a good idea, and I don't regret it. Other people have gone different routes in the service, for many different reasons.

 

Why join the Marine Corps? For many it was "my father and grandfather were marines". For a few it was 'the judge said "Marines or jail, take your pick"'. For some, especially after 9/11, it was "no, we can't let them get away with this." That last, other services too.

 

There are some incompetents in the military, just as there are some incompetents in any field. And yes, over the years I met a few, a very few, who were truly stupid.

 

I probably err by thinking of Marines from the non-officer POV - it seems to me those folks turn over their brains to the "corps" - a position I can't imagine adopting on a voluntary basis.