Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

What is the evidence for this claim

 

 

It appears there is some basis for the claim but not anything that would raise an eyebrow among professionals in that field, and to use it is simply to buy into the right wing talking points - they are desparate to protect Trump from Russia and obstruction of justice.

 

A person familiar with the matter pushed back on the notion that Comey had already reached a conclusion that affected the investigation.

The person said back in spring 2016, agents and Justice Department officials were talking about how the investigation would end and there was a belief that the evidence was going in a direction to not support bringing charges. This individual said by April 2016 the FBI had reviewed most of the evidence and didn't find evidence suggesting that Clinton had violated federal law. The person said the FBI wanted to interview her but didn't believe it was going to change the outcome.

The source also said Comey was not involved in the day-to-day steps of the investigation, so even if he reached a conclusion it wouldn't have affected the result of the investigation.

A second person familiar with the matter told CNN that Comey had not already made up his mind, and that it did not influence the investigation. The second source says the FBI had already reviewed much of the evidence by spring and it was becoming more clear that it was not likely to support bringing charges.

[ldrews]

perhaps you can also give your opinion on whether you consider it a good thing for everyone in a land, including government officials, to be held accountable for their actions.

 

It seems to me that President Trump is very much subject to "the rule of law". A special prosecutor is investigating him and his campaign team for violations of laws, several senators are talking of impeachment, etc. President Trump is not considered "above the law" in any sense. His actions, however disagreeable, seem to be within the scope of the law pertaining to the powers of the Presidency. In my opinion he is following the "rule of law". He may indeed have to answer for his actions politically, but that has nothing to do with "the rule of law".

[Al_U_Card]

The most recent case of someone not following the "rule of law" for me is Hillary Clinton and her email server. Apparently Comey drafted a memo exonerating Hillary Clinton some time before interviewing many key witnesses and completing the investigation in a normal manner. Comey's decision to not prosecute, even with credible evidence, based on his judgement that "no reasonable prosecutor" would bring a case against Hillary. All of this indicates to me that "the fix was in". This is a case of an individual being held to be above the law, not accountable. This, to me, is a case of not following "the rule of law".

Despite the "question" of Russian involvement in the DNC hack, see here

Steve McIntyre (Yes, him!) has an interesting analysis of the dates of emails released etc. (more info)

 

Suffice it to say that there are many sides to this issue, none of which bode well for the well-being and security (cyber and otherwise) of the people.

[rmnka447]

The most recent case of someone not following the "rule of law" for me is Hillary Clinton and her email server. Apparently Comey drafted a memo exonerating Hillary Clinton some time before interviewing many key witnesses and completing the investigation in a normal manner. Comey's decision to not prosecute, even with credible evidence, based on his judgement that "no reasonable prosecutor" would bring a case against Hillary. All of this indicates to me that "the fix was in". This is a case of an individual being held to be above the law, not accountable. This, to me, is a case of not following "the rule of law".

 

The information that about Comey drafting a memo exonerating Clinton long before the investigation was complete came from Senators Chuck Grassley and Lindsay Graham.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/31/politics/comey-clinton-investigation/index.html

 

Comey did in his testimony under oath claim he didn't decide that no prosecution was warranted until after the investigation was complete. This revelation is a possible contradiction of that testimony and needs to be investigated further. At the very least, it brings up the issue of whether Director Comey prejudged the investigation or was predisposed toward exoneration. That could lead to a "self fulfilling prophesy" situation where he might have acted in a manner in line with that predisposition in pursuing the investigation ensuring exoneration. So, at the very least, there needs to be an inquiry to assure something like that didn't occur.

[PassedOut]

Not only that, but Hillary Clinton had an acceptance speech drafted well before election day!

;)

[Al_U_Card]

And back in the day, "First Lady" Hillary was showing George Soros around Haiti to see the good work that his millions were doing. The Clinton Foundation and the globalists had her speech ready then, too!

[hrothgar]

The information that about Comey drafting a memo exonerating Clinton long before the investigation was complete came from Senators Chuck Grassley and Lindsay Graham.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/31/politics/comey-clinton-investigation/index.html

 

Comey did in his testimony under oath claim he didn't decide that no prosecution was warranted until after the investigation was complete. This revelation is a possible contradiction of that testimony and needs to be investigated further. At the very least, it brings up the issue of whether Director Comey prejudged the investigation or was predisposed toward exoneration. That could lead to a "self fulfilling prophesy" situation where he might have acted in a manner in line with that predisposition in pursuing the investigation ensuring exoneration. So, at the very least, there needs to be an inquiry to assure something like that didn't occur.

 

Probably not a good decision.

If nothing else, the optics are bad.

 

At the same time, I think that a bunch of folks had accurately pre-judged this to be a witch hunt...

[cherdano]

Has anyone ever seen Sessions look so giddy?

 

https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/905115001198870530

 

On average, DREAMers were 6 years old when their parents brought them to the US, and have been in the US for 20 years. Most of them haven't left the country (obviously, since they wouldn't be able to re-enter legally).

 

I'll happily wait for Ken to explain to me the world in which Jeff Sessions isn't racist, as I find the other version of the world easier to understand.

[jjbrr]

Things that make you go "hmmmm"

[barmar]

Things that make you go "hmmmm"

Not very surprising. Trump has flip-flopped on many issues. Since he became a candidate, he just espoused whatever policies his Republican base wanted to hear.

[Winstonm]

Has anyone ever seen Sessions look so giddy?

 

https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/905115001198870530

 

On average, DREAMers were 6 years old when their parents brought them to the US, and have been in the US for 20 years. Most of them haven't left the country (obviously, since they wouldn't be able to re-enter legally).

 

I'll happily wait for Ken to explain to me the world in which Jeff Sessions isn't racist, as I find the other version of the world easier to understand.

 

Jefferson Beauregard Sessions-Himmler.

 

This is sad and sick.

[RedSpawn]

Jefferson Beauregard Sessions-Himmler.

 

This is sad and sick.

Wow! This is a waste of our federal government resources and is a harbinger of things to come. . .

[RedSpawn]

Jefferson Beauregard Sessions-Himmler.

 

This is sad and sick.

I guess Sessions' impeccable record as U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama excludes his time battling against civil rights leaders and organizations for the franchise.

 

Coretta Scott King was spot-on about the dangers of putting this man in a federal position.

 

http://time.com/4663497/coretta-scott-king-letter-warren-senate-sessions/

 

If you really look, his behavior and use of the office of government for personal vendettas and political revenge hasn't changed one bit.

[y66]

Has anyone ever seen Sessions look so giddy?

 

https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey/status/905115001198870530

 

On average, DREAMers were 6 years old when their parents brought them to the US, and have been in the US for 20 years. Most of them haven't left the country (obviously, since they wouldn't be able to re-enter legally).

 

I'll happily wait for Ken to explain to me the world in which Jeff Sessions isn't racist, as I find the other version of the world easier to understand.

I don't see how pointing out that Sessions is a racist again, which is obvious, has anything to do with the futility of confusing people whose votes Dems were trying to win in 2016 with people whose votes they weren't going to win anyway by lumping them all into a one-size-fits-all category which accomplished what exactly?

 

Hopefully the Dems have learned from this.

[Winstonm]

This from The Atlantic, is a good but really sobering and frightful yet insightful read.

 

His political career began in advocacy of birtherism, that modern recasting of the old American precept that black people are not fit to be citizens of the country they built. But long before birtherism, Trump had made his worldview clear. He fought to keep blacks out of his buildings, according to the U.S. government; called for the death penalty for the eventually exonerated Central Park Five; and railed against “lazy” black employees. “Black guys counting my money! I hate it,” Trump was once quoted as saying. “The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”

[ldrews]

This from The Atlantic, is a good but really sobering and frightful yet insightful read.

 

This all sounds like we have the opportunity to evaluate Trump before electing him. That ship has sailed.

[kenberg]

This from The Atlantic, is a good but really sobering and frightful yet insightful read.

 

The Coates article is not about Trump, it is about white people. About you, I assume you are white, and me. I fully expect that he would agree with this description if his focus. . He sees Trump as "a president who, more than any other, has made the awful inheritance explicit.". Trump is president, so it is natural enough for Coates to say a lot about Trump. He alludes to other presidents, "held court in Paris; presided at Princeton; advanced into the Wilderness and then into the White House. ". He is surely not just speaking of Trump and he is surely not just speaking of presidents.

 

The article is long. I have read some of it but I will read some more. I see it as a very, very pessimistic view of where we are. Coates reminds me a bit of my Presbyterian minister who explained to me, when I was 14, that I had to get my parents to come to church more often so that they would not burn in hell. My reaction was, among other things, that I didn't think that I could do anything about that.

[Winstonm]

The Coates article is not about Trump, it is about white people. About you, I assume you are white, and me. I fully expect that he would agree with this description if his focus. . He sees Trump as "a president who, more than any other, has made the awful inheritance explicit.". Trump is president, so it is natural enough for Coates to say a lot about Trump. He alludes to other presidents, "held court in Paris; presided at Princeton; advanced into the Wilderness and then into the White House. ". He is surely not just speaking of Trump and he is surely not just speaking of presidents.

 

The article is long. I have read some of it but I will read some more. I see it as a very, very pessimistic view of where we are. Coates reminds me a bit of my Presbyterian minister who explained to me, when I was 14, that I had to get my parents to come to church more often so that they would not burn in hell. My reaction was, among other things, that I didn't think that I could do anything about that.

 

I think Coates sees Trump as a symptom of a casual white elitism.

[hrothgar]

The Coates article is not about Trump, it is about white people. About you, I assume you are white, and me. I fully expect that he would agree with this description if his focus.

 

FWIW Ken, I think that your technically corect. TNC is talking about white people.

 

However, having had the chance to meet and talk with Ta-Nehisi a few years back when he was teaching at MIT I can assure you that he is not talking about all white people.

[kenberg]

FWIW Ken, I think that your technically corect. TNC is talking about white people.

 

However, having had the chance to meet and talk with Ta-Nehisi a few years back when he was teaching at MIT I can assure you that he is not talking about all white people.

 

"some of them, I suppose, are nice people" comes to mind. I can find some of what he says interesting, and some of what he says I can agree with, but when he talks about what some white maid said to some Brit in 1807 I start wondering just what he would like me to do about that. He appears to have made it his life's work to explain why white people are bad, how white people are responsible of all the ills of the world, and he has been very successful at it. His knowledge is extensive and his commitment is strong. But the end result really does remind me of my Presbyterian minister. I am sure this envoy of God also did not think that everyone other than himself was going to hell, just most of us. And he knew who. Whichever circle of hell he, either Coates or the minister, has me assigned to, I am not planning on accepting his assignment.

[Winstonm]

"some of them, I suppose, are nice people" comes to mind. I can find some of what he says interesting, and some of what he says I can agree with, but when he talks about what some white maid said to some Brit in 1807 I start wondering just what he would like me to do about that. He appears to have made it his life's work to explain why white people are bad, how white people are responsible of all the ills of the world, and he has been very successful at it. His knowledge is extensive and his commitment is strong. But the end result really does remind me of my Presbyterian minister. I am sure this envoy of God also did not think that everyone other than himself was going to hell, just most of us. And he knew who. Whichever circle of hell he, either Coates or the minister, has me assigned to, I am not planning on accepting his assignment.

 

Hey, Ken. I sense a defensiveness in your responses to this article and I can't understand why. No one I know on these boards would consider you anything but reasonable. I certainly don't feel as if I posted this article link as an attack on all white people - and my reading of the article is such that I assume the author astute enough to know that there are many exceptions to his overall position - but I posted it as a guide to helping us understand how we got here, with Donald Trump president and his (mostly white) Republican followers steadfastly refusing to give him up, regardless of his actions.

 

This is deeper than simple politics, IMO. To find root causes requires some deep archaeological digs.

 

P.S.: I think it is necessary to address the reality of U.S. history in all its ugliness. After all, according to the article not that long ago we had major political figures puclicly expressing white supremacist ideas....

It was this juxtaposition that allowed Theodore Bilbo to campaign for the Senate in the 1930s as someone who would “raise the same kind of hell as President Roosevelt” and later endorse lynching black people to keep them from voting.

[hrothgar]

"some of them, I suppose, are nice people" comes to mind. I can find some of what he says interesting, and some of what he says I can agree with, but when he talks about what some white maid said to some Brit in 1807 I start wondering just what he would like me to do about that. He appears to have made it his life's work to explain why white people are bad, how white people are responsible of all the ills of the world, and he has been very successful at it. His knowledge is extensive and his commitment is strong. But the end result really does remind me of my Presbyterian minister. I am sure this envoy of God also did not think that everyone other than himself was going to hell, just most of us. And he knew who. Whichever circle of hell he, either Coates or the minister, has me assigned to, I am not planning on accepting his assignment.

 

Actually Ken, he made escaping the slums of Baltimore his life mission.

 

Please consider the following:

 

You are critiquing TNC for painting with an overly broad brush. You believe that many of the critiques that he raises about white people don't apply to you.

 

At the same time, you have reached this conclusion having done only the most cursory study of TNC or his works.

You have skimmed a single article, maybe you read a bit more a while back, and have already made up your mind about the man.

 

In all seriousness, I have come to expect much much better from you.

[kenberg]

Actually Ken, he made escaping the slums of Baltimore his life mission.

 

Please consider the following:

 

You are critiquing TNC for painting with an overly broad brush. You believe that many of the critiques that he raises about white people don't apply to you.

 

At the same time, you have reached this conclusion having done only the most cursory study of TNC or his works.

You have skimmed a single article, maybe you read a bit more a while back, and have already made up your mind about the man.

 

In all seriousness, I have come to expect much much better from you.

 

It's true, I have not studied hos work in detail. But Cherdano suggested a couple of articles for me to look at, I heard him interviewed on NPR, and now there is this one. I think I get the general drift of his thinking. Presumably you are not currently in touch with him or I would ask you to ask him if I have him wrong. I am not so sure he would say so.

 

Both you and Winston mention that I am taking this personally. Not really. What I said in my first response is that I found his views to be very very pessimistic.This is far more my focus. I don't know him, he doesn't know me, I doubt that he cares any more about what I thin of him than I care what he thinks about me. But, unlike me, you or Winston, he has a large foillowing (whoever reads this on BBF, it surely would not be described as a large following even if they agreed with me which they probably do not). His views, published in the Atlantic, definitely matter. Rave relations are a mess. We can probably all agree on that..His presentation is such that if I took it as accurate, I would conclude the situation is hopeless. What would satisfy him? Nothing I think would. Or at least nothing that is remotely likely to happen. Really, this pessimism, this hopelessness, is much more what is getting to me than any perceived slight.

 

I realize he came from the slums. Escaping is impressive. I once asked my father for details of his childhood. He responded "My childhood was hell" and refused to discuss it further. I know only a very little. He has my great respect in this and other matters. Comparing horror stories, even if we knew the details, gets us nowhere. My life? Easy.

 

My views could change. It happens.

[kenberg]

Hey, Ken. I sense a defensiveness in your responses to this article and I can't understand why. No one I know on these boards would consider you anything but reasonable. I certainly don't feel as if I posted this article link as an attack on all white people - and my reading of the article is such that I assume the author astute enough to know that there are many exceptions to his overall position - but I posted it as a guide to helping us understand how we got here, with Donald Trump president and his (mostly white) Republican followers steadfastly refusing to give him up, regardless of his actions.

 

This is deeper than simple politics, IMO. To find root causes requires some deep archaeological digs.

 

P.S.: I think it is necessary to address the reality of U.S. history in all its ugliness. After all, according to the article not that long ago we had major political figures puclicly expressing white supremacist ideas....

 

 

 

Defensive? I thought it was more on the offense. Anyway, see my response to Richard which really includes you.

[Winstonm]

Defensive? I thought it was more on the offense. Anyway, see my response to Richard which really includes you.

 

How I understand his POV is that he is writing about the Titanic, its history and its movements, fully aware that there are a few scatterings of lifeboats surrounding the ocean liner but they can have no affect whatsoever on the outcome of the bigger ship.

 

I see it as a call to not build the ship in the first place. Problem to solve: how does one un-build a ship while it is at sail?