Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[y66]

any one notice North korea may nuke us?

 

sadly I posted this issue years ago here in the forums

 

wait for it... the issue will become how this is all the idiot trump fault or the evil republican fault becomes the meme

The issue is real as you foresaw. I prefer Defense Secretary Jim Mattis' less colorful written statement to Trump's rhetoric. Mattis said North Korea risked “the end of its regime and the destruction of its people” if it did not stand down from its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Same message minus the gratuitous saber-rattling.

[mike777]

The issue is real as you foresaw. I prefer Defense Secretary Jim Mattis' less colorful written statement to Trump's rhetoric. Mattis said North Korea risked “the end of its regime and the destruction of its people” if it did not stand down from its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Same message minus the gratuitous saber-rattling.

 

You don't think Mattis rattled the saber?? really??

 

------------------

 

 

Perhaps one thing we and are allies can do:

Have Japan and South Korea start to take steps to go nuclear, very noticeable steps, very loud steps.

[kenberg]

The issue is real as you foresaw. I prefer Defense Secretary Jim Mattis' less colorful written statement to Trump's rhetoric. Mattis said North Korea risked "the end of its regime and the destruction of its people" if it did not stand down from its pursuit of nuclear weapons. Same message minus the gratuitous saber-rattling.

 

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, George H. W. Bush said "This will not stand". And then he followed through on it.

 

Something along those lines would have been best. For example:

"North Korea is pursuing nuclear development that poses an extremely serious threat to the United States and indeed to the entire world. We have no choice, we must deal with this effectively, whatever the consequences might be. It is our hope that this can be done without the massive death and destruction that extreme military action would bring to us all, but we are prepared to act if we must."

 

Something along those lines, I think.

 

The Trump tweet was not thought out. It starts ""North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States,". No! The weapons program is the threat. The Trump warning does not in fact address the weapons program. Taken literally, which of course we have all been told not to do, this seems to imply outfitting the missiles with nukes is not the problem, the problem is that Kim makes threats. This upsets out president. Myself, I see the missile program as a threat even if Kim never says another word. But then, right, we are not to take Trump literally. Has someone explained that to Kim?

 

I have never read "The Art of the Deal", nor do I intend to. I gather the idea is to start negotiations with a heavy load of bullstiuff. Trump supporters praise him for his skill at bullstuff. Take him seriously but not literally and so on. He is just so clever with everything he says. It's all bullstuff but it's such clever bullstuff, he is brilliant. At Real Estate maybe.

 

We desperately need a well thought out idea, one that is clearly phrased and can be taken both literally and seriously. What we have is bullstuff. No sensible person, senator here or head of state elsewhere, will stand shoulder to shoulder with a purveyor of bullstuff, no matter how loudly his supporters cheer.

 

Wars start in many ways. It would be a true shame if one started because our president cannot control his emotional need to tweet whatever springs to mind at the moment.

 

This is not good.

[mike777]

Ken Bush said that after the war had been started and Kuwait conquered not before.

 

To follow your logic Trump should wait until NK has taken over SK

 

As for the rest, all of that has been said year after year after year, nothing new to see here.

[PassedOut]

Ken, Bush said that after the war had been started and Kuwait conquered not before.

 

To follow your logic Trump should wait until NK has taken over SK.

 

Yours is a society which cannot accept 10,000 dead in one battle. -- SADDAM HUSSEIN, July 25, 1990.

Iraq invaded Kuwait August 2, 1990.

 

This will not stand, this aggression against Kuwait. -- GEORGE BUSH, Aug. 6, 1990.

George H. W. Bush began the war to expel Iraq from Kuwait 7 hours after the January 15, 1991 deadline set, by ultimatum, for Iraq to start withdrawing.

 

Ken's logic is fine. President Bush said that the surprise attack would not stand, gave Iraq a chance to withdraw, and expelled them when they did not. It would not have made sense to say "This will not stand" before the surprise attack occurred.

 

What should not stand now are the nuclear-armed missiles being developed by North Korea.

[Zelandakh]

What should not stand now are the nuclear-armed missiles being developed by North Korea.

Why? Do you not find it arrogant for a country with over 40% of the world's nuclear arsenal stating that another country should not have even 1%? It is not like NK is signed up to the NPT. Would it be regarded as an improvement if NK bought missiles from China (as Trident is in the UK)? The rhetoric puts me in mind of a short story:-

 

Hu Sung-Ok: Hi, my name is Hu Sung-Ok. I would like to become a member.Hu Sung-Ok:

Jefferson Jr III: Hello Sir. You do realise that this is the Sunshine Valley exclusive golf club?

Hu Sung-Ok: Yes, of course. That is why I wouls like to join.

Jefferson Jr III: I am sorry, we do not allow slinky-eyed low-life here.

Hu Sung-Ok: What?! But my neighbour Zhang Gioliang is a member. He will even sponsor me.

Jefferson Jr III: Mr Zhang is a special case. He is incredibly rich and offered us a very generous loan a few years back when we had some financial issues. You on the other hand have nothing we need.

Hu Sung-Ok: Oh come on! I've been saving for 50 years to join this club.

Jefferson Jr III: Not a chance. And don't think about joining any other clubs round here or we will have Mr Goldman make sure that all of your finances are ruined.

Hu Sung-Ok: Screw you! I am going to build my own minigolf course.

Jefferson Jr III: I wouldn't advise that Sir. You might just find that your house is built on a sinkhole.

Hu Sung-Ok: (storms out)

Jefferson Jr III: Note to self - have a word with Mr Zhang about sorting out his troublesome neighbour.

[hrothgar]

Why? Do you not find it arrogant for a country with over 40% of the world's nuclear arsenal stating that another country should not have even 1%? It is not like NK is signed up to the NPT. Would it be regarded as an improvement if NK bought missiles from China (as Trident is in the UK)? The rhetoric puts me in mind of a short story:-

 

Hu Sung-Ok: Hi, my name is Hu Sung-Ok. I would like to become a member.Hu Sung-Ok:

Jefferson Jr III: Hello Sir. You do realise that this is the Sunshine Valley exclusive golf club?

Hu Sung-Ok: Yes, of course. That is why I wouls like to join.

Jefferson Jr III: I am sorry, we do not allow slinky-eyed low-life here.

Hu Sung-Ok: What?! But my neighbour Zhang Gioliang is a member. He will even sponsor me.

Jefferson Jr III: Mr Zhang is a special case. He is incredibly rich and offered us a very generous loan a few years back when we had some financial issues. You on the other hand have nothing we need.

Hu Sung-Ok: Oh come on! I've been saving for 50 years to join this club.

Jefferson Jr III: Not a chance. And don't think about joining any other clubs round here or we will have Mr Goldman make sure that all of your finances are ruined.

Hu Sung-Ok: Screw you! I am going to build my own minigolf course.

Jefferson Jr III: I wouldn't advise that Sir. You might just find that your house is built on a sinkhole.

Hu Sung-Ok: (storms out)

Jefferson Jr III: Note to self - have a word with Mr Zhang about sorting out his troublesome neighbour.

 

If I could get rid of the nuclear stockpiles that the US, Russia, China, France, the UK, ... have I would.

 

Not sure how successful that's going to be.

Its hard to shove the genie back into the bottle.

 

Its a lot easier to stop other bottles from getting opened.

[hrothgar]

FWIW, here's the discussion that I wish that people were having:

 

My expectation is that the end result of the Mueller investigation will look as follows:

 

1. Mixed evidence with respect to active collusion between elements of the Trump campaign and The Russian government

 

2. Clear and compelling evidence that the value of Trump's real estate holdings are highly dependent on Russian money laundering. In turn, this means that the Russians have an easy source of influence over Trump and, of course, Trump's been breaking the law for years. (If you don't care about Russian money laundering, maybe his deals with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard might be considered more serious)

 

It would be nice to get folks on the record whether item #2 warrants impeachment because this is where the real energy is going

[PassedOut]

Why? Do you not find it arrogant for a country with over 40% of the world's nuclear arsenal stating that another country should not have even 1%?

North Korea is not just "another country." It has some unique attributes.

[jjbrr]

Nearly half of Republicans (47 percent) believe that Trump won the popular vote. Larger fractions believe that millions of illegal immigrants voted (68 percent) and that voter fraud happens somewhat or very often (73 percent). Moreover, 52 percent said that they would support postponing the 2020 election, and 56 percent said they would do so if both Trump and Republicans in Congress were behind this.

[jjbrr]

I also want to quote this because it seems insightful to me:

 

I've noticed that there are a lot of articles lately discussing how NK's missiles are capable of hitting US states now. These threads usually devolve into arguments about how Japan must be getting antsy or how Seoul is (or is not) at risk of artillery shelling or chemical attacks. Not to mention, how China love-hates North Korea. Before we get into any war scenarios, I want to make this point:

 

Even if we agree that North Korea has the ability to attack America, we must ask the more important question of whether they have a REASON to attack America or her allies.

 

If NK was more powerful than America, maybe they'd attack us. But they're not. Not by a long shot. You know that. All that rhetoric of engulfing America in a sea of flames is FOR THEIR OWN PEOPLE - who by the way are increasingly ignoring the propaganda themselves. South Koreans and North Korean defectors are waging a cultural war in North Korea by sending in USB drives full of KPOP and KDRAMAS and KFILMS. If you want internal change, that's how you do it. You have to subvert the propaganda with proof of wealth on the outside, not meet it head on by upping our own militant rhetoric. That's playing into their own game!

 

If we as the public and you Media folks fail to parse out the fact that NK gov't prefers the status quo, we will only bring fear and greater uncertainty to the American public because we will continue to read headlines about NK's capabilities without factoring in their reasoning.

 

Import side note: calling Kim Jong Un "crazy" or "unstable" doesn't do us any good because it shifts our perspective of him. We need to interpret his actions carefully, not dismiss them arrogantly. Every move he has made, from gaining weight so that he looks more like his revered grandfather to killing his China-backed brother, Kim Jong Un's actions are carefully considered to ensure his regime's preservation.

 

In the face of these facts we need to ask ourselves this simple question: Would he have anything to gain by attacking America or her allies with a nuclear strike?

 

If you've been paying attention the answer should be a resounding no. The second NK strikes first, they lose any and all moral authority as the aggressor and they leave themselves open to merciless retaliation and a sure end to the Kim dynasty.

 

The opposite would be true if the US were to attack. The second America strikes first, China and Russia would point an accusatory finger at us for disrupting the status quo in a region that has seen stability and growth for decades now. South Korea, should it not give consent will feel betrayed by her most important ally for going behind her back. You folks chiming in every so often saying it's "time to do something" without understanding any of this are only making the situation WORSE. You're giving journos clicks for inflammatory headlines. You're giving writers a reason to make that headline more scary and you're feeding the bias that comes from misunderstanding.

 

Believe me I'm no fan of the current administration but even Trump knows this. It's why he hasn't attacked. It's why he's been trying to pressure China. You don't think he'd have done something by now if he could when he's losing face over the NK issue?

 

China has been happily advancing its society for the last few decades and anything to hinder this progress will be stopped with great prejudice. As such a war in Korea would throw the world's economy into chaos. You're advocating a conflict between China, the US, Korea, and Japan and you don't think that's gonna be the case? South Korea is not only a major trading partner, investor, and employer in America, it is now a regional power in Asia that should be given full consideration before any action is taken and as far as I can tell articles and comment threads don't give much attention to the South Korean perspective.

 

America and her Allies have aligned interests. If you go America first at the sake of an ally's wishes, you're going to lose whatever faith our other allies have in us. It's why our guarantee of retaliation is so powerful. If we didn't retaliate against a NK strike on our allies, our guarantee of security to other allies will crumble.

 

Sen. Lindsey Graham seems to think America wouldn't suffer in case of a war in Korea. Let me assure you if there is war American jobs will be lost (those employed by Korean companies), American lives will be lost (servicemen and civilians in Korea), and America may well lose favor among East Asian nations if the war gets out of hand and the repercussions echo throughout the region. That is to say, refugees from South Korea will flee to Japan. North Koreans will flee to China.

 

And you think Syria is bad?

 

A NK nuclear strike on America or her allies is out of the question. NK will not strike first with nuclear arms unless we corner them. You know what they say about cornering prey right? It's the dumbest thing you can do because they will go all out when there is nothing to lose. Always leave room to escape (de-escalate).

 

By getting suckered into the media narrative of a greater chance of war, our countries inch closer to war because of the increased fear among the public. Fear blinds us and when fear is founded on incomplete information, we make poor choices on top of being blinded.

 

We have missile defense systems in America and Japan. We are not without recourse there and therefore the threat is not really there. The threat is to South Korea who is a bit too close for most systems to be effective as I understand especially in an artillery barrage scenario. This is why the THAAD is so controversial. It's nice to have, but unnecessary considering the other threats it won't deter (artillery) and the political fallout it leads to (China retaliating economically against South Korea). Not to mention, South Korea already possesses America's retaliation as a deterrent to a nuclear strike as covered above.

 

It is true that North Korea is growing in capability and there are valid fears that even if NK never attacks, they could still sell their nuclear technology. To this I say increase monitoring and disincentivize those countries or entities who would seek to buy. I hear the Iran deal is working out alright so far.

 

Nuclear technology will spread throughout the world as a matter of time just as gunpowder weapons did. It will be impossible to stop the proliferation of information but what we can do is deter the USE of this information by not pushing each other into corners. What we should do instead is invest heavily in defensive technology to preemptively castrate any possible threats by proliferating wealth and trade relationships with "problem" countries. We also need to remember though that the Korean war was a proxy war between Stalinist forces and US forces in the aftermath of World War 2. Instead of dividing up Japan like we did Germany after the war, we divided up Korea who had been suffering from Japanese exploitation for 30+ years all because Korea is located in a more strategically significant location (next to China). We must therefore understand that NK's increased nuclear capabilities are also an extension of modern Russian and US relations. The two will avoid a direct confrontation but wherever they can they will try to top each other (see Ukraine, Syria, now North Korea).

 

If NK starts rampaging through Asia, sure let's wipe them out. But NK has yet to invade a country since ceasefire in 1953 (save for a brief stint with the NVA, which SK was on the other side of). Skirmishes have occurred, but neither side wants it to escalate any further.

 

To close, I want to emphasize the importance of building the relationship between the USA and SK, USA and China, and China and SK. The stronger these relationships are (read: better informed) the even less likely NK will dare to step out of line. China won't stop feeding NK behind the scenes so if the other relationships listed get complicated, we will have lost the long term war as China gets stronger by virtue of population and NK climbs out of poverty in the long run via the feeding tube.So long as America can align its desires for the status quo (as with China) by building up relationships with Countries around NK, we will continue to prevent war as we have the last 70 years. Mr. President, please feel free to ignore the NK threat as there is none in the face of America's overwhelming advantage in every respect. America, don't entertain the idea of striking preemptively and you won't give China and Russia any political ammo to shoot at us. If NK goes postal on SK then yeah let loose the hounds of war but till then rest easy as we have countermeasures in place already.

[Zelandakh]

North Korea is not just "another country." It has some unique attributes.

Men used to say that women had unique attributes that made them unable to be trusted in the voting booth. Similarly for intelligence in non-whites and aggressive tendencies in Germans. :huh:

 

I cannot say that I am enthusiastic at the prospect of rogue nations obtaining such weapons but it is usually the case that you need some sort of legal justification for taking direct action against another sovereign nation if you wish to hold any sort of moral authority. The strange thing is that many who are highly critical of the legality of the war in Iraq support action against NK. This I find a very strange position. Mostly though, I just find the rhetoric arrogant. By all means take action, just do so from a position that makes some sort of logical sense!

[PassedOut]

Men used to say that women had unique attributes that made them unable to be trusted in the voting booth. Similarly for intelligence in non-whites and aggressive tendencies in Germans. :huh:

I understand that people have been wrong about unique attributes in the past, and now. Nevertheless, North Korea does have some unique attributes, including -- in 2013 -- having repudiated the 1953 Armistice.

[mike777]

Men used to say that women had unique attributes that made them unable to be trusted in the voting booth. Similarly for intelligence in non-whites and aggressive tendencies in Germans. :huh:

 

I cannot say that I am enthusiastic at the prospect of rogue nations obtaining such weapons but it is usually the case that you need some sort of legal justification for taking direct action against another sovereign nation if you wish to hold any sort of moral authority. The strange thing is that many who are highly critical of the legality of the war in Iraq support action against NK. This I find a very strange position. Mostly though, I just find the rhetoric arrogant. By all means take action, just do so from a position that makes some sort of logical sense!

 

I agree the rhetoric is arrogant.

 

Not sure if any of the below meets your logical sense test but try:

suicide

suicide by cop

the leader truly believes he is a god

belief in life after death

belief in the supernatural world, the world of gods.

[Winstonm]

Here are some truly concerning polling results. (emphasis added)

Roughly half of Republicans believe Trump won the popular vote — and would support postponing the 2020 election.

 

Nearly half of Republicans (47 percent) believe that Trump won the popular vote, which is similar to this finding. Larger fractions believe that millions of illegal immigrants voted (68 percent) and that voter fraud happens somewhat or very often (73 percent). Again, this is similar to previous polls.

 

Moreover, 52 percent said that they would support postponing the 2020 election, and 56 percent said they would do so if both Trump and Republicans in Congress were behind this.

 

[What if Pence’s voter fraud commission ‘finds’ thousands of duplicate registrations? They will. Here’s why.]

 

Not surprisingly, beliefs about the 2016 election and voter fraud were correlated with support for postponement. People who believed that Trump won the popular vote, that there were millions of illegal votes in 2016, or that voter fraud is not rare were more likely to support postponing the election. This support was also more prevalent among Republicans who were younger, were less educated, had less factual knowledge of politics and strongly identified with the party.

 

The big picture question to me is this: can a democracy survive facing an organized propaganda war against its own citizens? And how is it possible to degrade their message and render it harmless?

[ldrews]

Here are some truly concerning polling results. (emphasis added)

 

 

The big picture question to me is this: can a democracy survive facing an organized propaganda war against its own citizens? And how is it possible to degrade their message and render it harmless?

 

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said:"The greatest argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter."

[mike777]

The big picture question to me is this: can a democracy survive facing an organized propaganda war against its own citizens? And how is it possible to degrade their message and render it harmless?

 

Skynet may assist

[mike777]

fwiw interesting study by Lee Drutman.

 

He found that 73% of 2016 voters were left of center on economic issues. 52% were social conservatives.

I was surprised.

[Zelandakh]

Not sure if any of the below meets your logical sense test but try:

suicide

suicide by cop

the leader truly believes he is a god

belief in life after death

belief in the supernatural world, the world of gods.

I do not quite follow this. Since NK is an atheist state that actively discourages religion I can only assume you are talking about America, where most of the statements do indeed apply. I am not sure we have enough evidence to say that Trump genuinely believes himself to be a god though... :lol:

[Zelandakh]

He found that 73% of 2016 voters were left of center on economic issues. 52% were social conservatives.

I was surprised.

Left of which centre? The left-right divide in America is absolutely non-standard in relation to the rest of the world. The Democrats have much in common with right-wing parties in many other states. It would genuinely shock me if 73% of Americans were left of centre in terms of international standards.

[helene_t]

It would genuinely shock me if 73% of Americans were left of centre in terms of international standards.

OTOH it wouldn't shock me if 73% were left of the centre of Congress. There are polls that have shown that Bernie Sanders' views on income distribution, campaign finance and health care have a lot of support, certainly more support from the public than from Congress.

 

You see the same in Europe. People tend to agree with left-wing parties on economic issues yet vote for right-wing parties.

[RedSpawn]

Why? Do you not find it arrogant for a country with over 40% of the world's nuclear arsenal stating that another country should not have even 1%? It is not like NK is signed up to the NPT. Would it be regarded as an improvement if NK bought missiles from China (as Trident is in the UK)? The rhetoric puts me in mind of a short story:-

 

Hu Sung-Ok: Hi, my name is Hu Sung-Ok. I would like to become a member.Hu Sung-Ok:

Jefferson Jr III: Hello Sir. You do realise that this is the Sunshine Valley exclusive golf club?

Hu Sung-Ok: Yes, of course. That is why I wouls like to join.

Jefferson Jr III: I am sorry, we do not allow slinky-eyed low-life here.

Hu Sung-Ok: What?! But my neighbour Zhang Gioliang is a member. He will even sponsor me.

Jefferson Jr III: Mr Zhang is a special case. He is incredibly rich and offered us a very generous loan a few years back when we had some financial issues. You on the other hand have nothing we need.

Hu Sung-Ok: Oh come on! I've been saving for 50 years to join this club.

Jefferson Jr III: Not a chance. And don't think about joining any other clubs round here or we will have Mr Goldman make sure that all of your finances are ruined.

Hu Sung-Ok: Screw you! I am going to build my own minigolf course.

Jefferson Jr III: I wouldn't advise that Sir. You might just find that your house is built on a sinkhole.

Hu Sung-Ok: (storms out)

Jefferson Jr III: Note to self - have a word with Mr Zhang about sorting out his troublesome neighbour.

American exceptionalism and monetary hegemony allow us to be the global police over the world's nuclear arsenal and arbitrarily determine who are axes of evil and who aren't.

[RedSpawn]

FWIW, here's the discussion that I wish that people were having:

 

My expectation is that the end result of the Mueller investigation will look as follows:

 

1. Mixed evidence with respect to active collusion between elements of the Trump campaign and The Russian government

 

2. Clear and compelling evidence that the value of Trump's real estate holdings are highly dependent on Russian money laundering. In turn, this means that the Russians have an easy source of influence over Trump and, of course, Trump's been breaking the law for years. (If you don't care about Russian money laundering, maybe his deals with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard might be considered more serious)

 

It would be nice to get folks on the record whether item #2 warrants impeachment because this is where the real energy is going

You are speculating over the outcome of Mueller's investigation because to date he doesn't have "clear and compelling evidence" that Trump money laundered with the Russians. He has the hint of a suspicion which is a very low legal standard to ask for bank records and try to make a case (if one can actually made). I am wondering where this investigation will lead but only time will tell.

[Zelandakh]

American exceptionalism and monetary hegemony allow us to be the global police over the world's nuclear arsenal and arbitrarily determine who are axes of evil and who aren't.

You should generally add a smiley when posting irony or humour in text form - that was what they were invented for long before the term emoji had been thought up (even before the internet for that matter).

[jjbrr]

You are speculating over the outcome of Mueller's investigation because to date he doesn't have "clear and compelling evidence" that Trump money laundered with the Russians. He has the hint of a suspicion which is a very low legal standard to ask for bank records and try to make a case (if one can actually made). I am wondering where this investigation will lead but only time will tell.

 

Go on, tell us more about Mueller's investigation and what information he doesn't have.