Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[ldrews]

Now that Admiral Harwood has refused the "sh*t sandwich" offered by Trump after General Flynn's ouster, I wonder who'll be the one willing to take a bite.

 

It is indeed a "sh*t sandwich"! There seems to be an internal war going on about who is going to run the government: the president or the "deep state". The jury is still out on that.

[rmnka447]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/17/leaked-emails-dem-state-leaders-think-obama-s-new-organizing-army-is-grade-a-bullshit.html?ref=yfp

 

Just happened across the above by accident and was a little shocked by it.

 

So is this group a burgeoning progressive equivalent of the TEA party? Is it the Democratic Party imploding? Or is it something more sinister?

 

Or is it just some wild musings by a disreputable web site?

[cherdano]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/02/17/leaked-emails-dem-state-leaders-think-obama-s-new-organizing-army-is-grade-a-bullshit.html?ref=yfp

 

Just happened across the above by accident and was a little shocked by it.

 

So is this group a burgeoning progressive equivalent of the TEA party? Is it the Democratic Party imploding? Or is it something more sinister?

 

Or is it just some wild musings by a disreputable web site?

Why, exactly, is that shocking?

The Democratic party has lost thousands of seats in state legislatures under Obama, as well as 12 Senate seats, and enough House seats to swing from an Obamacare-proof majority in 2009-2011 to the largest Republican majority since the 1930s in 2015-2017.

 

OFA was supposed to energise and organise the base at the state and local level. Given the obviously dreadful results, you are surprised they'd get some internal blame? (There is a House district in Texas that Clinton won - yet the Democrats didn't even field a candidate. No, I don't mean they didn't have a serious candidate - they had no candidate.)

[y66]

From President Trump, White House Apprentice by the NYT Editorial Board:

 

It’s with a whiff of desperation that President Trump insists these days that he’s the chief executive Washington needs, the decisive dealmaker who, as he said during the campaign, “alone can fix it.” What America has seen so far is an inept White House led by a celebrity apprentice.

 

This president did not inherit “a mess” from Barack Obama, as he likes to say, but a nation recovered from recession and with strong alliances abroad. Mr. Trump is well on his way to creating a mess of his own, weakening national security and even risking the delivery of basic government services. Most of the top thousand jobs in the administration remain vacant. Career public servants are clashing with inexperienced “beachhead” teams appointed by the White House to run federal agencies until permanent staff members arrive.

 

Mr. Trump lost his national security adviser this week in a scandal involving ties to Russian intelligence. Robert Harward, a retired vice admiral, refused the job on Thursday, rattled by a dysfunctional National Security Council and a president who has alienated Mexico, Australia and even the British royal family, while cozying up to Moscow.

 

When Mr. Trump’s assistants can keep the edge of panic out of their voices, they insist that Mr. Trump has gotten more done in the early going than most presidents. And Mr. Trump is so adept at creating smoke that Americans might be forgiven for thinking that’s true. But at this point in the Obama presidency, which did inherit a mess, Congress had passed laws aimed at dragging the economy back from the brink of depression while committing $800 billion in Recovery Act spending to projects ranging from housing to roads to advanced energy technologies.

 

Mr. Trump’s vaunted $1 trillion infrastructure spending program, by contrast, doesn’t yet exist, because the president confuses executive orders with achievements. Orders are dashed off without input from Congress and the government officials who would implement them. The White House is a toxic mix of ideology, inexperience and rivalries; insiders say tantrums are nearly as common as the spelling errors in the press office’s news releases. Steve Bannon writes the president’s script, and Reince Priebus, the embattled chief of staff, crashes meetings to which he has not been invited.

 

Mr. Trump complains about the slow pace of congressional confirmation of his appointees, but the obstacle is at his end. His staff doesn’t bother to vet nominees in advance. His pick for labor secretary failed in part because no one in authority seemed to know that the nominee had employed an undocumented immigrant and had been accused of abusing his ex-wife.

 

“Everything he rolls out is done so badly,” Douglas Brinkley, a presidential historian, marveled recently. “They’re just releasing comments, tweets and policies willy-nilly.”

 

If there is any upside here, it is that the administration’s ineptitude has so far spared the nation from a wholesale dismantling of major laws, including the Affordable Care Act, though he may yet kill the law through malign neglect. In the meantime, however, as Mr. Harward’s retreat on Thursday suggests, the chaos carries other risks. A Navy SEAL turned corporate executive, Mr. Harward cited family and financial considerations for refusing the national security job, but privately he was reported to be worried about the effect of a mercurial president on national security decision making. As Gen. Tony Thomas, head of the military’s Special Operations Command, said this week: “Our government continues to be in unbelievable turmoil. I hope they sort it out soon, because we’re a nation at war.”

 

The most damaging downside to the administration’s stumbles could be an exodus of talent from the broader government; scientists, lawyers and policy specialists at the Environmental Protection Agency, for instance, are openly disheartened at the prospect of working for Scott Pruitt, whose nomination as the agency’s new boss was approved by the Senate on Friday. And if others follow Mr. Hayward’s lead, capable people may be reluctant to come on board and fix things. That would leave the White House further isolated, particularly on foreign policy.

 

Indeed, unless Mr. Trump can bring some semblance of order to his official household and governing style, the only element of his famous campaign pledge that may prove accurate is the “alone” part.

The most damaging downside of the administration's stumbles could be an exodus of talent from government? That's a downside but hardly the most damaging. Imagine what's in store when they stop stumbling.

[Trinidad]

Actually I believe that Trump, like everybody else, primarily has his own interests at heart. That is how humanity seems to work. The trick is to get his interests lined up with my interests and let him pull the wagon. This seems to be happening.

 

The only people who profess not to have their own interests primary, like you, are the real con men.

 

But please do console yourself with the Russian conspiracy bit. It is very entertaining.

There are plenty of people who don't have their own interests at heart. On a small scale: Ask any parent. Most of them would take a bullet for their kids.

 

Many people would risk their own life for a stranger.

(Did you hear the story last week about the guy who was overtaking a swerving car on the German Autobahn and saw that the driver was unconscious? He starting driving in front, breaking slowly, letting the other car rear-end him as gently as possible and got the car to stop safely. This action, that risked his own life and severely damaged his car, saved the unconscious driver's life and possibly some others too.)

 

On a larger scale: You can have opinions on and agree or disagree with Barack Obama, Francois Hollande, Theresa May or Angela Merkel, to name a few. But in their jobs, they will/would do what they think is right for the country or the world, not what is best for themselves. They may be wrong about what is right for the country or the world, or they may fail in getting the job done. But they do not put self-interest ahead of the interest of everybody else. And, of course, being in the position that they are in makes them feel good, perhaps even proud. But they will only be proud if they get the difficult job done for the country.

 

Rik

[ldrews]

There are plenty of people who don't have their own interests at heart. On a small scale: Ask any parent. Most of them would take a bullet for their kids.

 

Many people would risk their own life for a stranger.

(Did you hear the story last week about the guy who was overtaking a swerving car on the German Autobahn and saw that the driver was unconscious? He starting driving in front, breaking slowly, letting the other car rear-end him as gently as possible and got the car to stop safely. This action, that risked his own life and severely damaged his car, saved the unconscious driver's life and possibly some others too.)

 

On a larger scale: You can have opinions on and agree or disagree with Barack Obama, Francois Hollande, Theresa May or Angela Merkel, to name a few. But in their jobs, they will/would do what they think is right for the country or the world, not what is best for themselves. They may be wrong about what is right for the country or the world, or they may fail in getting the job done. But they do not put self-interest ahead of the interest of everybody else. And, of course, being in the position that they are in makes them feel good, perhaps even proud. But they will only be proud if they get the difficult job done for the country.

 

Rik

 

Do you feel good about doing good? Then you are pursuing self-interest.

[Winstonm]

"The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure." --Thomas Jefferson to Lafayette, 1823. ME 15:49

 

Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump

The FAKE NEWS media (failing @nytimes, @NBCNews, @ABC, @CBS, @CNN) is not my enemy, it is the enemy of the American People!

3:48 PM - 17 Feb 2017

39,026 39,026 Retweets 120,614 120,614 likes

 

Now, can you explain again why anyone should support Donald Trump?

[ldrews]

Now, can you explain again why anyone should support Donald Trump?

 

In my opinion a free press (not under government control) is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The "free press" must also report news factually and without bias. I have not seen that happen much during the last couple of years at least. A press that slants their reporting, reports inaccurately, and allows their bias to selectively report is indeed an enemy of the people. I would assert that, in my opinion, all of the above has been present recently.

 

Since I feel that significant changes are needed in the US culture/policies to ensure survival/prosperity, I continue to support Trump because he seems to be attempting to make changes. You may not agree with me and therefore see Trump as a danger/buffoon/idiot, but that disagreement has been resolved, at least temporarily, by the recent election. We will see at the next election whether Trump retains enough popular support to continue or not.

[PassedOut]

In my opinion a free press (not under government control) is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The "free press" must also report news factually and without bias. I have not seen that happen much during the last couple of years at least. A press that slants their reporting, reports inaccurately, and allows their bias to selectively report is indeed an enemy of the people. I would assert that, in my opinion, all of the above has been present recently.

It seems to me that Trump directs his anger precisely at those news sources that point out his own factual errors and false claims. He's fine with those who repeat, or initiate, the false claims that Trump himself makes.

[ldrews]

It seems to me that Trump directs his anger precisely at those news sources that point out his own factual errors and false claims. He's fine with those who repeat, or initiate, the false claims that Trump himself makes.

 

Well, certainly. Wouldn't you do the same if you were in his position? Do you really expect Trump to admit to any mistakes/errors that he doesn't absolutely have to? Would you realistically expect that of anyone else?

[Trinidad]

Do you feel good about doing good? Then you are pursuing self-interest.

But Trump isn't in the White House to feel good about doing good. (In fact, he basically hasn't done anything at all and I think that right now he is not feeling that good either.)

 

He has one reason to be in the White House:

"Look, everybody! I am in the White House!"

 

So far, he hasn't been able to get much further than that. But I fear that the next step will be: "Hmm, I would be crazy if I wouldn't totally use this to my advantage. And I was elected bigly, so the voters are okay with that."

 

Rik

[Winstonm]

Well, certainly. Wouldn't you do the same if you were in his position? Do you really expect Trump to admit to any mistakes/errors that he doesn't absolutely have to? Would you realistically expect that of anyone else?

 

Only the grown-ups.

[ldrews]

Only the grown-ups.

 

OK, name a grown up politician who would do so.

[Winstonm]

Actually I believe that Trump, like everybody else, primarily has his own interests at heart. That is how humanity seems to work. The trick is to get his interests lined up with my interests and let him pull the wagon. This seems to be happening.

 

The only people who profess not to have their own interests primary, like you, are the real con men.

 

But please do console yourself with the Russian conspiracy bit. It is very entertaining.

 

You seem to equate self-interest with something other than self-satisfaction. Looking out for other peoples' interests instead of your own can be very rewarding; helping others out of times of need and despair can be rewarding; living life by the creed that society is more important than any one individual want helps elevate all lives, including your own.

[Winstonm]

OK, name a grown up politician who would do so.

 

President Obama

But during an interview on Fox News on Sunday, Obama took a moment to reflect on his biggest mistake while Commander in Chief.

Speaking to host Chris Wallace, Obama said: 'Probably failing to plan for the day after what I think was the right thing to do in intervening in Libya.'

[PassedOut]

Well, certainly. Wouldn't you do the same if you were in his position? Do you really expect Trump to admit to any mistakes/errors that he doesn't absolutely have to? Would you realistically expect that of anyone else?

You can't be serious. That's childish -- not adult -- behavior.

 

Like most honest folks, I prefer to shed mistaken notions and am grateful when folks point them out (even though it can be embarrassing at times). That's one reason why I try to state my opinions as clearly and directly as possible.

 

Trump repeatedly makes statements that are clearly demonstrably false and then gets angry at those who point that out. He cozies up to those who make a living peddling falsehoods (as he has done himself).

 

The government is not a nursery school and the White House is not a baby's play pen.

[PassedOut]

On the entertainment front:

 

Earlier in the week, Trump invited Chris Christie to a lunch at the White House. While everybody else at the table got to pick what they wanted to eat, the president made Christie order meatloaf. Its emasculating! cried a talk-show host to whom the governor of New Jersey for some reason reported the tale.

 

No its not, Christie responded, rather weakly. It is the president.… And the meatloaf was good.

Even better than the sh*t sandwich Trump made him eat last time.

:P

[ldrews]

President Obama

 

Right! Retiring from the position, no plans for further political position, no need for political power. You are right. Now name an active grown up politician who wants to be re-elected.

[ldrews]

You can't be serious. That's childish -- not adult -- behavior.

 

Like most honest folks, I prefer to shed mistaken notions and am grateful when folks point them out (even though it can be embarrassing at times). That's one reason why I try to state my opinions as clearly and directly as possible.

 

Trump repeatedly makes statements that are clearly demonstrably false and then gets angry at those who point that out. He cozies up to those who make a living peddling falsehoods (as he has done himself).

 

The government is not a nursery school and the White House is not a baby's play pen.

 

And you can't be that naive! Politicians are primarily interested in getting re-elected and exercising power. You are right, government is not a nursery school and the White House is not a baby's play pen. You might stop trying to use kindergarden rules to evalute their inhabitant's behavior.

[Cyberyeti]

Do you really expect Trump to admit to any mistakes/errors that he doesn't absolutely have to? Would you realistically expect that of anyone else?

 

The problem with this as Mrs May has found out, is that if you admit your position was wrong, and change it, you're accused of performing a U-turn as if this was worse than continuing with something that was never going to work.

[PassedOut]

And you can't be that naive! Politicians are primarily interested in getting re-elected and exercising power. You are right, government is not a nursery school and the White House is not a baby's play pen. You might stop trying to use kindergarden rules to evalute their inhabitant's behavior.

Compare this press conference of Kennedy's after the failed Bay of Pigs invasion with Trump's recent performance: The President's News Conference April 21, 1961

 

There's an old saying that victory has a hundred fathers and defeat is an orphan ... Further statements, detailed discussions, are not to conceal responsibility because I'm the responsible officer of the Government ...

In fact, you might want to read the whole transcript as a reminder of how responsible, experienced politicians communicate: no whining, no shifting the blame to others, and plenty of factual information. In fact, Trump's performance at his press conference looks terrible compared to that of every president I've seen, democrat or republican.

 

To my conservative way of thinking, accepting personal responsibility for one's actions is the adult course. Although he's clearly in over his head at the White House, Trump's childishness is what really creates a dangerous situation for all of us.

 

Trump is a guy who spits on McCain and kisses Putin's butt. He seems to think that exclaiming "Not good!" after every Russian provocation will persuade Putin to back off. Weak, weak, weak! No wonder Putin wanted Trump in office.

[Winstonm]

Right! Retiring from the position, no plans for further political position, no need for political power. You are right. Now name an active grown up politician who wants to be re-elected.

 

Quit moving the goalposts. I answered your question. It is too bad you don't like that the answer isn't consistent with your bias. Besides, you can't have it both ways. Trump is either the businessman outside or he is a politician, so you can't claim he is simply acting like another politician when he claims himself to be a non-politician.

[Al_U_Card]

Quit moving the goalposts. I answered your question. It is too bad you don't like that the answer isn't consistent with your bias. Besides, you can't have it both ways. Trump is either the businessman outside or he is a politician, so you can't claim he is simply acting like another politician when he claims himself to be a non-politician.

There's the rub. Trump is NOT a politician so comparing him to them is fruitless. Flim-flam man? Blustering buffoon? Savvy sociopath? Or just a guy on a mission that a lot of pundits and punters are unable to fathom.

Seasoned businessmen are used to cleaning out the deadwood and shaking down the fruit from the tree, so maybe he is a shakedown specialist? ;)

It appears that he is used to more acquiescence from his charges than he is receiving from the installed appointees that are dead-set against his announced agenda. Ross Perot and Ralph Nader were other "fringe" candidates that didn't get the chance to set the ship of state on a new course. Perhaps 3rd time is a charm?

[cherdano]

Trump: "I won with the biggest electoral vote margin since Reagan." (Not true, unless you ignore Bush senior, Clinton and Obama.

ldrews: "What do you expect Trump to say - admit that he won by a small margin in the electoral vote, and despite losing the popular vote by 2%"?

 

Trump fanboys are really something.

[cherdano]

Since I feel that significant changes are needed in the US culture/policies to ensure survival/prosperity, I continue to support Trump because he seems to be attempting to make changes.

What significant changes do you want to see?