Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

Do you have any hope - at all - that this is a pov which will prevail come Dec 19?

 

Not really.

[Kaitlyn S]

This type of ruthlessness - the win at any and all costs type - can only stem from a total conviction of the rightness of the cause being fought for. The only place I have seen this type of certainty is in religions. We are no longer dealing with political opponents but political zealots, driven by their religious-like fervor to convert the sinner or burn him at the stake.

I hear this argument all the time but usually from the alt-right when they tell me that I am not only a deplorable but also an infidel who many want to kill.

[Kaitlyn S]

I strongly suspect the Hannity's of the world know full well that they are telling a lot of lies. Hannity has found an extraordinarily lucrative gig, earning 29,000,000 a year ranting about how the media elites are lying to the great American public. Limbaugh is, IMO, the same. He has become extremely wealthy preaching lies to his audience. These guys are the equivalent, morally, of the prosperity gospel fraudsters who con the poor and gullible into sending them part of their social security checks.

I'm going to talk from the POV of someone that knows nothing (yes, I know you think that should be easy for me :lol: ) and has no preconceived notions. While what you are saying is possible for Hannity, I have some evidence that it is not the case fr Limbaugh. I believe he started his conservative talk show in the 1980's when it wasn't popular. If he was into pulling off a scam and making a buck, he had many easier ways to do it, as it was difficult for him to get sponsors at the time. He claims to have had to give away advertising time on his show for free in order to prove to advertisers that it was worthwhile to advertise on his show. From your POV, he was essentially gambling several years of his life on an untested sham or an unproven method of making money.

 

I find it hard to believe that he would have taken that chance if he really didn't believe what he was preaching.

 

You could make the point that at one time he did believe in it enough to take that life gamble but has since learned that by being more outrageous he can make more money that if he sticks to what he truly believes. I have no facts to disprove that, just as I think you have no facts to prove it. However, he has probably surrounded himself with people with opinions similar to those of the people I've surrounded myself with, so I think it's fairly likely that he still strongly believes what he's preaching.

 

I will grant you that Hannity may have seen a get rich quick scheme since he has seen that it was successful for others. I'm not conceding the fact; I still think it's likely that he believes most of what he says, but I will concede that there is some chance that I am being duped. But given Limbaugh's start, selling him as a fraud is going to be an uphill battle.

[Kaitlyn S]

Because of that, I have the advantage of realizing that anyone who says "I know" or "I am right" or "I have the answer" is running a scam, regardless if believed or not.

So MikeH is running a scam?

[Kaitlyn S]

In any case, I would rather discuss issues, than the shortcomings of those who express opinions about them

This. I would nominate this for post of the year if I didn't think that the nomination had to be bridge-related, and if it wasn't too late for nominations.

[Kaitlyn S]

I think that most theists display an astounding arrogance....easily the equivalent of most atheists, tho I concede that my arrogance tends towards the high end of the spectrum. Think about the arrogance inherent in believing that any human, let alone the believer in question, is the object of the creation of the universe! Think about the arrogance inherent in claiming that I and only those who think like I do will live forever in heaven and the rest of you will burn in hell forever (or whatever equivalent your particular religion espouses).

I've finally found something that mikeh and I strongly agree on.

[Kaitlyn S]

Nothing you wrote seems to me to be relevant to whether my criticisms of K and jon have merit.

even if he would like for us all to see how mistreated K is.

I have reached such a high level of fame that I am now described by one letter :D

[Kaitlyn S]

To Kaitlyn and nige1: here is something you may or may not enjoy, but that I think is something that explains my views better than anything that I have written:

 

http://www.theconver...ur-opinion-9978

 

Don't be put off by the title...it isn't as arrogant as it may seem to you.

 

edited to correct the link, I hope

I did enjoy it. BTW you may be surprised to hear that I'm in favor of vaccinations being a requirement to attend school.

[Winstonm]

So MikeH is running a scam?

 

Does he claim to be right on faith alone? Does he claim ultimate knowledge? No. So quit being obtuse.

[Winstonm]

double post

[Winstonm]

I hear this argument all the time but usually from the alt-right when they tell me that I am not only a deplorable but also an infidel who many want to kill.

 

It comes as no surprise that the alt right would attack anyone who did not follow the "faith".

[mike777]

It comes as no surprise that the alt right would attack anyone who did not follow the "faith".

 

 

Winston says it well

[mike777]

Does he claim to be right on faith alone?

 

 

Claim?....it is clear that MIkeH is an advocate for his position/faith......and that is ok.....I hope I am for mine.

 

to say that MIKeH is an advocate a zealous advocate for his claim is a reasonable argument

 

I would say that he presents a persuasive /logical point of view

[mikeh]

Does he claim to be right on faith alone?

Not sure what you mean by faith in this context. I have biases, unconscious assumptions, and emotions, but as far as I know, I don't have faith in anything. I have opinions and beliefs, but those are mutable, being based on my understanding of facts and arguments. I can be stubborn. I am pretty sure that there are times and subjects about which I am unreasonable, but I really don't think there is any proposition you can suggest where I cannot point to facts and yet where I have absolute certainty as to the answer.

 

A trite example. I am an atheist. Contrary to what nigel seems to think that word means, I do not believe that there is no god. Leaving aside the fascinating question (to the subtleties of which most religious believers appear oblivious) of what that term actually means, as an atheist I do not believe that there is a god. IOW, I see no reason to postulate the existence of such an entity.

 

Now, if by some miracle (forgive the liberty), a god-entity were to offer persuasive evidence of its existence, I like to think that I would, if that evidence didn't involve my death, at least consider the possibility that I was wrong. I won't hold my breath, even tho we are, so many claim, in The Last Days, lol.

 

There is no way, afaik, to falsify the god proposition. Therefore it would make no sense to be certain that one doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't make its existence likely.

 

As another example, more relevant to this thread, I strongly believe that Trump will be a disaster as President and that he and Ryan will make America a truly horrible place to live for many millions of non-white, non-Xian people. I am prepared to be, and would be delighted to be, wrong. I think as I do for a number of what appear to me to be cogent reasons. Were he to act in such a way as to negate those reasons, my views would change. My attitude is not about faith: it is about observation and argument.

[awm]

President Trump announces Japanese corporate giant is investing $50 billion in the U.S.

 

Do you even read your own links? The same article indicates that these are jobs and investments which would probably have come to the US anyway (since we are the world leader in tech).

 

It does seem that Trump is very good at bribing businesses to let him take credit for them doing things they would've done anyway (as we also saw in the Carrier "deal"). Not clear to me how this is actually good for the country since we end up footing the bill for the bribes (okay they are usually "tax breaks") and the only additional benefit is giving Trump something to brag about.

[mike777]

Not sure what you mean by faith in this context. I have biases, unconscious assumptions, and emotions, but as far as I know, I don't have faith in anything. I have opinions and beliefs, but those are mutable, being based on my understanding of facts and arguments. I can be stubborn. I am pretty sure that there are times and subjects about which I am unreasonable, but I really don't think there is any proposition you can suggest where I cannot point to facts and yet where I have absolute certainty as to the answer.

 

A trite example. I am an atheist. Contrary to what nigel seems to think that word means, I do not believe that there is no god. Leaving aside the fascinating question (to the subtleties of which most religious believers appear oblivious) of what that term actually means, as an atheist I do not believe that there is a god. IOW, I see no reason to postulate the existence of such an entity.

 

Now, if by some miracle (forgive the liberty), a god-entity were to offer persuasive evidence of its existence, I like to think that I would, if that evidence didn't involve my death, at least consider the possibility that I was wrong. I won't hold my breath, even tho we are, so many claim, in The Last Days, lol.

 

There is no way, afaik, to falsify the god proposition. Therefore it would make no sense to be certain that one doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't make its existence likely.

 

As another example, more relevant to this thread, I strongly believe that Trump will be a disaster as President and that he and Ryan will make America a truly horrible place to live for many millions of non-white, non-Xian people. I am prepared to be, and would be delighted to be, wrong. I think as I do for a number of what appear to me to be cogent reasons. Were he to act in such a way as to negate those reasons, my views would change. My attitude is not about faith: it is about observation and argument.

 

 

I hope and pray that MikeH is incorrect regarding his view, last P

I M GLAD, very glad he remains open minded.

 

 

disaster is a strong word, I hope Mike will see America, my country as not a disaster, I hope he views my country as a great a truly great country if flawed.

[PassedOut]

Trump Fires Adviser’s Son From Transition for Spreading Fake News

 

WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump on Tuesday fired one of his transition team’s staff members, Michael G. Flynn, the son of Mr. Trump’s choice for national security adviser, for using Twitter to spread a fake news story about Hillary Clinton that led to an armed confrontation in a pizza restaurant in Washington.

 

The uproar over Mr. Flynn’s Twitter post cast a harsh spotlight on the views that he and his father, Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, aired on social media throughout the presidential campaign. Both men have shared fake news stories alleging that Mrs. Clinton committed felonies, and have posted their own Twitter messages that at times have crossed into Islamophobia.

 

But their social media musings apparently attracted little attention from Mr. Trump or his transition team before a North Carolina man fired a rifle on Sunday inside Comet Ping Pong, which was the subject of false stories tying it and the Clinton campaign to a child sex trafficking ring.

Some things do attract attention.

[nige1]

Nige, I'm usually on your side and hate to see a relatively new poster put off by "the usual gang" as you call it. But you're falling for Jon's drama role here, he lumps himself with Kaitlyn as the poor mistreated voices against the tide, when it's not the case.

 

Kaitlyn is NOT in the same league with Jon at all, even if he would like for us all to see how mistreated K is. Jon is the target of the attacks, Kaitlyn mostly gets calls to stand up by what she posts and stop hiding around the bush with claims like "oh it doesn't matter what I believe but here's another story about aliens having group sex with Hillary that all my friends believe and they are so smart and educated". But other than this WC stuff she is respected as a thoughtful and valuable member of the Forums and we would all hate to see her gone bec of politics.

In this thread, didn't they call Kaitlyn a racist or worse, before they got their hooks into JonOttowa?

 

But I love your news-item about Hilary-Aliens group-sex :)

[Zelandakh]

In this thread, they called Kaitlyn a racist or worse before they got their hooks into JonOttowa.

Nige, hand on heart, do you believe that none of the views posted by Kaitlyn in this thread have been racist? Regardless of this specific case, if someone were to post racist views on BBF do you find it strange to point this out to them, particularly if you suspect that that racism is unintentional and there is therefore a benefit to doing so?

[kenberg]

I see Kaitlyn as in need of guidance and yes I fully realize this is more than a bit condescending.

 

Kaitlyn I was thinking of you as I read a long story in the Post today about the lead up to the Ping Pong Comet stuff. As I read about all of the people that have been affected by this, and I read about the businesses, I realized that the guy dating my granddaughter is employed by one of these shops. Not Comet. I really like the guy, and so this adds a little directness to how I see this.

 

But the point I want to make is that it doesn't matter if some of these goofballs really believe the crap that they are tweeting and acting on. They are doing an immense amount of harm regardless of why they are doing it. I quote just one of the expressions of frustration by the shop owners:

“What can we do?” Ousmaal said. “There is no basement. There is no tunnel. There is nothing.”

 

Here is the link. I hope you will read it, preferable all of it.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pizzagate-from-rumor-to-hashtag-to-gunfire-in-dc/2016/12/06/4c7def50-bbd4-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_comet-reconstruct-852pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.e3e7bebf2f72

[Winstonm]

Not sure what you mean by faith in this context. I have biases, unconscious assumptions, and emotions, but as far as I know, I don't have faith in anything. I have opinions and beliefs, but those are mutable, being based on my understanding of facts and arguments. I can be stubborn. I am pretty sure that there are times and subjects about which I am unreasonable, but I really don't think there is any proposition you can suggest where I cannot point to facts and yet where I have absolute certainty as to the answer.

 

A trite example. I am an atheist. Contrary to what nigel seems to think that word means, I do not believe that there is no god. Leaving aside the fascinating question (to the subtleties of which most religious believers appear oblivious) of what that term actually means, as an atheist I do not believe that there is a god. IOW, I see no reason to postulate the existence of such an entity.

 

Now, if by some miracle (forgive the liberty), a god-entity were to offer persuasive evidence of its existence, I like to think that I would, if that evidence didn't involve my death, at least consider the possibility that I was wrong. I won't hold my breath, even tho we are, so many claim, in The Last Days, lol.

 

There is no way, afaik, to falsify the god proposition. Therefore it would make no sense to be certain that one doesn't exist. Of course, that doesn't make its existence likely.

 

As another example, more relevant to this thread, I strongly believe that Trump will be a disaster as President and that he and Ryan will make America a truly horrible place to live for many millions of non-white, non-Xian people. I am prepared to be, and would be delighted to be, wrong. I think as I do for a number of what appear to me to be cogent reasons. Were he to act in such a way as to negate those reasons, my views would change. My attitude is not about faith: it is about observation and argument.

 

Exactly. That was my point to Kaitlyn. You do not form beliefs based on faith alone. It should be obvious to any unbiased reader that you do not fit the description of "scam salesman" I presented.

[Winstonm]

Trump Fires Adviser’s Son From Transition for Spreading Fake News

 

 

Some things do attract attention.

 

I really don't think the headline is accurate. It should read "Flynn's son forced out for creating negative publicity."

[mikeh]

In this thread, didn't they call Kaitlyn a racist or worse, before they got their hooks into JonOttowa?

 

But I love your news-item about Hilary-Aliens group-sex :)

 

Do you, before jumping in to attack Richard and me, actually read the series of posts that includes the posts giving rise to the accusations of racism?

 

Let's look at the meme that really showed her true attitude towards blacks. She said, admitting that this was completely without evidence, that reasonable business owners would be unlikely to hire blacks because, if fired, blacks are prone to bringing false discrimination claims.

 

In doing so, she seems to have singled out blacks as a group likely to bring fraudulent lawsuits. They are, it seems, more likely to do this than any other group. Women. Gays. Latinos. Trans. Disabled.Asians. First Nations.

 

No, it is all the blacks...and that is just common sense...it isn't the least racist to make up this notion, and, she said, it is unfair and unrealistic to ask for evidence because stuff like this can't ever be proven...but it is of course absolutely true!

 

And, to show her lack of racism, she points out that she is quite happy to bank at an institution where all of the tellers are black! OMG, how noble of her. I wonder how many of the bank managers or Directors are black? But I digress.

 

Kaitlyn appears to be oblivious to her racism, but that is pretty common afaik. After all, most well-intentioned, decent people know that to be a racist means being a nasty excuse for a human being, and Kaitlyn can't and won't see herself as such. The reasoning, such as it is, goes something like this:

 

Racists are horrible people

 

I'm not a horrible person

 

Therefore I am not a racist

 

Of course, being a realist is different, and everybody knows that blacks are seen as litigious...they fill the courts with false claims of discrimination so any honest business owner must surely take that into account. Isn't it awful that blacks face that barrier to employment? (other than as a bank teller...and maybe as a servant?).

 

Back in the 1970s feminists used to engage in a lot of what was called consciousness raising. The idea was that many people have attitudes of which they are unaware. Women were inherently treated as second-class citizens, suited only to subordinate roles and this was so taken for granted that the only solution was to make chauvinists re-examine their thinking. It worked, at least in part, altho it remains a work in progress. So too with racism.

 

Let racism slide without being challenged, and the racist will continue on as a racist, all the time thinking to herself that she is just being honest, and not the least bit prejudiced.

 

So far, at least, efforts to raise Kaitlyn's consciousness seem to have fallen short, but we can hope.

[Kaitlyn S]

The followers of Hannity do not grok the con.

 

My own view about Hannity is that I don't care if he believes or doesn't believe his stories - I question why anyone would watch someone who is so obviously biased as to be inherently untrustworthy. In my life I have discovered that there is always much more to learn. Because of that, I have the advantage of realizing that anyone who says "I know" or "I am right" or "I have the answer" is running a scam, regardless if believed or not.

 

It is the same reason I do not watch Rachael Maddox or care much for the opinions of Bill Maher. I like my op-eds to be clearly marked as such.

 

Does he claim to be right on faith alone? Does he claim ultimate knowledge? No. So quit being obtuse.

 

I see nothing about faith alone or ultimate knowledge in the first post. From what your post alone, one would assume that mikeh was running a scam.

 

Do I think that mikeh is running a scam? No, don't be ridiculous. (Of course, some of my friends might point out that any liberal that isn't just being duped themselves is pulling off a scam, but I'm not buying it there. I think mikeh truly believes what he posts, just like I truly believe that Rush believes what he says - again, remembering that Rush started when broadcasting conservative messages was not a moneymaker.)

 

Did I think I was trying to be funny? Of course.

 

Do I think it's totally sad that nobody here got the humor? Yes. Very, very sad. Sad because I'm being called the clueless one.

 

My next post will be another attempt at humor, Please don't read anything else into it.

[Kaitlyn S]

Apologies to diana for taking a quote out of context.

 

here's another story about aliens having group sex with Hillary

 

You need to call them "undocumented immigrants". Otherwise some gullible souls will think you're saying she's having group sex with extraterrestrial beings.