Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[barmar]

What made it difficult for me to share a room with an Indian guy? I didn't know:

what Indian people do before they sleep

whether they wear pijamas

what they will do when they wake up

how they would react if we by accident happened to touch each other

Is that racism? Sounds more like "culturism". You weren't apprehensive about him because of the color of the skin, but because he came from a place with different societal norms.

 

Of course, this is closely related to racism, since we often make initial assumptions about where someone is from, and thus what culture they were raised in, from their appearances. Although I suspect most westerners can't easily distinguish Indians from Pakistanis or Bangladeshis based only on appearance. And as soon as the person starts talking, we'll probably adjust our assumptions -- when I first see a black man, I might assume he's from an inner city, but if he then talks with a British accent I'll take him for an English tourist or transplant.

[kenberg]

Is that racism? Sounds more like "culturism". You weren't apprehensive about him because of the color of the skin, but because he came from a place with different societal norms.

 

Of course, this is closely related to racism, since we often make initial assumptions about where someone is from, and thus what culture they were raised in, from their appearances. Although I suspect most westerners can't easily distinguish Indians from Pakistanis or Bangladeshis based only on appearance. And as soon as the person starts talking, we'll probably adjust our assumptions -- when I first see a black man, I might assume he's from an inner city, but if he then talks with a British accent I'll take him for an English tourist or transplant.

 

There is a lot to this. Again though, it's complicated.

 

In high school a friend was dating a Japanese girl. A mutual friend of ours commented adversely on this. I was surprised and didn't see the problem. He asked, I remember it close to verbatim "Would it be embarrassing to both your parents and her parents?" I didn't see why, and I still don't. But when she married, she married Japanese.Of course results vary.

 

I wed three wives. It's not just that they are all white, they also are of roughly similar backgrounds. Becky is my current and final wife. Her father was an accountant. He did not go to college, he studied on his own while working at, I think, the Post Office. He passed the various exams and joined a firm. I am not sure that this route is still available but it was then. The father of my first wife worked in the iron mines until he had heart problems and then he tended bar.

 

I had dated rich girls but I never considered marriage. I had my standards :)

 

In our personal lives, we go with where we are comfortable.

 

As far as sharing a bed with another guy, from any race or culture, we frequently did such things through mid-adolescence but, later, this ended. Of course I still could, but I would prefer not. An extreme case, not exactly the same, of some years back. I stopped off at a math conference in Chicago on the way back from a trip to SF. We had been assured that our housing needs would be taken care of. Uh huh. We all had keys to modest rooms with bunk beds, three story bunk beds as I recall, with something like three or maybe four stacks to a room. I took one look at this and found myself a hotel. In some ways this is different from what Rik describes, in other ways it isn't. It was just a feeling of "No way".

 

Sometimes we find circumstances to be uncomfortable, It is probably worth some self-examination to see just why this is so, but I would not jump to conclusions about either myself or about others.

[Winstonm]

To my way of thinking, racism's essence is making generalizations about a group of people based solely on skin coloration or race.

[nige1]

To my way of thinking, racism's essence is making generalizations about a group of people based solely on skin coloration or race.

Skin Cancer Rates by Race and Ethnicity

[PassedOut]

To my way of thinking, racism's essence is making generalizations about a group of people based solely on skin coloration or race.

Mine too, for behavioral and capability predictions. And the more people of different races that one comes to know, the more difficult it is to do that. (Undeniably, though, some can overcome those difficulties.)

[Trinidad]

Is that racism? Sounds more like "culturism".

Perhaps you are right, but I don't care what you call it. Whether it is racism or culturism, the key thing is that it is fear for someone different. And that someone different is a person, a homo sapiens, that hasn't done anything bad to you or anyone you know.

 

Also note that, IMO, this was somewhat xenophobic, but wasn't racist or "any-ist" to begin with. It was limited to my fears (thoughts) and not to my behavior (actions). I did lie down in that bed... and found out that the biggest problem was his snoring (which obviously was not at all race or culture related and could happen to anyone).

 

Rik

[kenberg]

Perhaps you are right, but I don't care what you call it. Whether it is racism or culturism, the key thing is that it is fear for someone different. And that someone different is a person, a homo sapiens, that hasn't done anything bad to you or anyone you know.

 

Also note that, IMO, this was somewhat xenophobic, but wasn't racist or "any-ist" to begin with. It was limited to my fears (thoughts) and not to my behavior (actions). I did lie down in that bed... and found out that the biggest problem was his snoring (which obviously was not at all race or culture related and could happen to anyone).

 

Rik

 

I was wondering about snoring.

 

Possibly some people think that scientific conferences are some big party. My experience is that they are seriously scientific and they are run frugally, as Rik's experience demonstrates. It's typical for the funding to cover a shared room. The bunk bed thing described earlier was a bizarre exception but sharing a room with one other, often someone you barely know, is common.The option is to pay half the room coast and have it to yourself. Sometimes Becky is with me so that works, we take the room and pay half the cost. Otherwise, I usually just fork over the other half anyway. I have too often ended up with snorers or insomniacs or whatever. But when you are a grad student, the budget is usually tight so you cope.

 

Anyway, sharing a room with someone you don't much know is tough enough, sharing a bed is more than I would want to do. I realize you are saying that his "otherness" made it tougher, but I really think you need not worry about this.

[Trinidad]

Anyway, sharing a room with someone you don't much know is tough enough, sharing a bed is more than I would want to do. I realize you are saying that his "otherness" made it tougher, but I really think you need not worry about this.

While we are on the subject of odd sleeping experiences:

 

A few years later, after I had befriended many Indians, I was in Bangalore, India, staying with the family of one of my very best friends. My friend and I took the night train from Bangalore to Madras (now called Chennai). He needed to have his US visa renewed at the consulate in Madras. And I could walk around in Madras while he was in the consulate.

 

The night train had compartments with benches that could be converted into 2 bunks of 3 beds. My friend and I had a small backpack each and we were the first there. A husband and wife with a teenage kid were 3, 4, and 5, also with little luggage. We wanted to make our beds, so we talked to the husband and wife and we took the two top beds while they sat below us waiting for the potential last passenger.

 

A minute before the train left, the last passenger arrived. It seemed to be some kind of sales guy. He had three huge suit cases that he chained to his wrist. Meanwhile he is yelling at the family of three. They get the full load. They should have made the beds already and the man was furious. He called the ticket collector to let him know what he thought. Meanwhile, this guy hadn't even looked at my friend and me and we decided to simply stay in our beds, high and quiet. I thought I had met some obnoxious people in my life, but they were amateurs compared to this guy.

 

The next morning, we are reaching Madras. The family is awake and ready to go. We are awake and ready to go. The sales guy is still sleeping... with all the suit cases chained to him. Everything is blocked and we can't possibly get out of the compartment. We can't even get out of our (not very comfortable) beds. Then, as the train rolls into the station, the guy gets out of his bed. He is standing up straight next to his bed and, from a distance of 3 inches, he looks right into the eyes of ... a blond haired white guy (me). He practically gets a heart attack. He is frightened, he shreeks and within a second he is out of the compartment going through the corridor with the three suitcases, still attached to his wrist, dragging behind him.

 

The next thing I see are four very broad Indian smiles: white teeth in brown faces in a half dark train compartment. Then the five of us had a good laugh.

 

So, I am not worried. There clearly are people on the planet that have bigger problems with "otherness" than I. :)

 

Rik

[Winstonm]

Water discovered on Mars!

GOP blames Obama.

[barmar]

Perhaps you are right, but I don't care what you call it. Whether it is racism or culturism, the key thing is that it is fear for someone different. And that someone different is a person, a homo sapiens, that hasn't done anything bad to you or anyone you know.

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier post, but it didn't strike me as "fear" at all. I thought it was cultural sensitivity -- would he be offended by my behaviors or vice versa? I can imagine having the same concerns about sharing a room with someone who comes from a nudist colony.

 

Tourist guide books often warn people about certain phrase or gestures that are innocuous at home, but offensive in the country they're visiting. I can't recall any specifics, but imagine a country where waving to someone is interpreted as giving the finger is here. If I found myself rooming with someone from a very unfamiliar culture, I'd be very worried that I might commit such a faux-pas unwittingly. Is that any type of -ism or -phobia?

[Trinidad]

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier post, but it didn't strike me as "fear" at all. I thought it was cultural sensitivity -- would he be offended by my behaviors or vice versa? I can imagine having the same concerns about sharing a room with someone who comes from a nudist colony.

I think it was both: The cultural sensitivity that you describe was definitely there. But the apprehension was there too ("What if he pulls out a cobra and a flute each evening before he goes to sleep?"). That is not me being sensitive to his culture, that is hoping that he will be sensitive to mine (and fearing that he might not).

 

Rik

[Zelandakh]

Water discovered on Mars!

GOP blames Obama.

I heard it was because of global warming...

[Winstonm]

I heard it was because of global warming...

That's the price paid for electing a non-American Muslim President. :P

[Zelandakh]

Well if you will allow your presidents to swear themselves in on the koran what do you expect? ;) :P

[kenberg]

Water discovered on Mars!

GOP blames Obama.

 

It must be recognized that this is Martian water. I know that some say that Martian water, if smuggled back into the US, should be given full rights after five years but that's just liberal ideology. There are real scientists, not just tv scientists, who have shown that Martian water causes epilepsy. I say boil it all into steam and be done with it. American water for Americans. Those atheists over in Europe can drink all they want of this devil water from Mars.

[cherdano]

My general experience is that people are not racists, they are not communists, they are really not any sort of ists. They are trying to live their lives as well as possible.

Yet James Blake wouldn't have gotten tackled and treated they way he was treated if he had been white. And that kind of incident happens hundreds of times every day in the US.

 

I agree people are all individuals, and there are very few people where the word "racist" is helpful in describing their personality.

 

But when you are talking about the entire US society, then there are many phenomena that cannot be explained fully without talking about racism. Insisting that it is inappropriate to be brought up in discussion, equating it with "name-calling" etc., is just completely inappropriate. Yes, it's the easy and comfortable thing to do when you are part of the majority race. You don't want to have to wonder whether your proverbial "uncle" actually is a racist, or just says racists things now and then. But it is completely disrespectful to about 112 million Americans.

 

I hope this isn't read as a personal attack on Ken. Everybody reading the watercooler knows he is a much better human being than I. But here he is, in my view, very very wrong. And he is wrong about one of the most important questions affecting US society as a whole.

[mike777]

Do people outside the USA really view racism or racist acts how ever you prefer to define them occur much more often in the USA than in their country? In other words do you view the USA as a much more racist country than your home country?

[kenberg]

Yet James Blake wouldn't have gotten tackled and treated they way he was treated if he had been white. And that kind of incident happens hundreds of times every day in the US.

 

I agree people are all individuals, and there are very few people where the word "racist" is helpful in describing their personality.

 

But when you are talking about the entire US society, then there are many phenomena that cannot be explained fully without talking about racism. Insisting that it is inappropriate to be brought up in discussion, equating it with "name-calling" etc., is just completely inappropriate. Yes, it's the easy and comfortable thing to do when you are part of the majority race. You don't want to have to wonder whether your proverbial "uncle" actually is a racist, or just says racists things now and then. But it is completely disrespectful to about 112 million Americans.

 

I hope this isn't read as a personal attack on Ken. Everybody reading the watercooler knows he is a much better human being than I. But here he is, in my view, very very wrong. And he is wrong about one of the most important questions affecting US society as a whole.

 

Actually, I like what you say here, and I will think about it some. Maybe just a starter comment or two.

 

People seem to group themselves by race, but not exclusively. In the bar I mentioned above, owned by a black guy I knew, I did not go back. It was pretty clear that my presence was not desired by several others there. Nothing really hostile, but I came in to enjoy myself not to make any sort of statement about brotherhood, and I did not much enjoy it. I wasn't wanted, so I did not return.(The owner was fine with me, and not just because I was a customer, but some of his customers not so much so.) People seek comfort, I was made uncomfortable. I could cope, but why should I. It is more pleasant to go where people greet me as if they are glad to see me.

 

This bar owner was once speaking of his sister to me. She got a degree in education and got a job in northern Minnesota. He drove her up there. In his words "We drove for miles and miles and I didn't even see a black face". This concerned him. He said it was all going ok as far as he knew. I didn't ask if his sister had a boyfriend, someone she might wish to marry. Perhaps so, but maybe tough. [This was forty years ago, maybe the world has changed. Or not.]

 

So we have a problem. The following will not entirely solve it, but it might lessen the effects.

 

Here is one recommendation. We improve the educational system for those in poor communities. Note that I did not say in black communities, Probably no one disagrees with that suggestion. But I have a few twists.

1. There are so many glaring deficiencies that we could easily find things to do. Perfection is not needed, substantial improvement is.

2. We stop discussing achievement gaps based on race. Some kids do better than others, that cannot be helped, but we do our best.

3. We apportion responsibility. Society has the responsibility to make good choices available. Some people will make bad choices. I have made some bad choices, I blame no one but myself. If we make good choices available, we do not accept the responsibility for the bad choices some will make.

4. We accept that the young need guidance and that, if possible, they should be given an opportunity to recover from their errors. But they have a responsibility to recognize that they have made an error.

 

I understand that this sounds like I hope for people to accept my general world view instead of the work view that might be offered by their neighborhood. That's true. And I know that this is often derided. Well, a choice has to be made.

 

I have suggested, only partly in jest, that every 8 year old should be issued a bicycle and it should (this is probably the jesting part) be a capital offense to steal it. The idea is that a kid can get out and explore the world, and make choices. Becky mentioned an article to me the other day that said they were having bicycle classes in school in one of the poor areas of the city. Maybe someone was listening to me. Nah. But I rode my bike everywhere, and I regard it as an important part of my growth.

 

Some choices are better than others. There is no getting around that. I favor much improved opportunity to make better choices, and acceptance that some will make bad choices.

 

I think most all of this could be done without ever saying the word race.

 

I know others approach this differently.

 

Added: I have not addressed police relations. I accept that some things are not right. I favor fixing this. But I also recognize that my total (well, almost total) lack of experience is a problem when it comes to making a reasonable suggestion. Most everyone has an agenda, and about 90% of them have no more of an idea than I do about what would be helpful.

[Trinidad]

Do people outside the USA really view racism or racist acts how ever you prefer to define them occur much more often in the USA than in their country? In other words do you view the USA as a much more racist country than your home country?

Well. given I have lived in the USA and in various countries in Europe, I think I can answer that.

 

In Europe, there is much less racism. There is a fairly large group of people with too much fear for foreigners ("our country is for us"), but race doesn't play a big role there. Without a doubt, people originating from Morocco suffer from discrimination in the Netherlands. But I don't think it is as bad as in the USA.

 

When I was in Michigan, a grad student in my wife's lab always was at work either at 8 AM sharp or simply late. Whenever he arrived late, several times a week(!), he had been pulled over by the local police: They would search his car, because a big black guy obviously wouldn't drive a car on campus to go to work, unless "work" was something drug related. (Undergrads were not allowed to park on campus.)

 

In Michigan, I had a few restaurants where I wouldn't go, because my colored friends would not be served there. While this might happen in the Netherlands, somewhere, in the USA I saw these kind of things regularly.

 

Rik

[PassedOut]

In Michigan, I had a few restaurants where I wouldn't go, because my colored friends would not be served there. While this might happen in the Netherlands, somewhere, in the USA I saw these kind of things regularly.

 

Rik

There is plenty of racism still in the USA, and I witnessed blatant racism very close up during the 1960s. However, if this situation happened more recently, I'm surprised to learn of it. What years did you encounter restaurants that would not serve your colored friends?

[mike777]

Well. given I have lived in the USA and in various countries in Europe, I think I can answer that.

 

In Europe, there is much less racism. There is a fairly large group of people with too much fear for foreigners ("our country is for us"), but race doesn't play a big role there. Without a doubt, people originating from Morocco suffer from discrimination in the Netherlands. But I don't think it is as bad as in the USA.

 

When I was in Michigan, a grad student in my wife's lab always was at work either at 8 AM sharp or simply late. Whenever he arrived late, several times a week(!), he had been pulled over by the local police: They would search his car, because a big black guy obviously wouldn't drive a car on campus to go to work, unless "work" was something drug related. (Undergrads were not allowed to park on campus.)

 

In Michigan, I had a few restaurants where I wouldn't go, because my colored friends would not be served there. While this might happen in the Netherlands, somewhere, in the USA I saw these kind of things regularly.

 

Rik

 

OK Rik

 

thank you for taking the time to respond with your thoughtful post Rik.

 

In summary you find the USA a much more racist country than your home in Holland.

 

 

Hope to hear other responses from outside the USA,

[Zelandakh]

It must be recognized that this is Martian water. I know that some say that Martian water, if smuggled back into the US, should be given full rights after five years but that's just liberal ideology. There are real scientists, not just tv scientists, who have shown that Martian water causes epilepsy. I say boil it all into steam and be done with it. American water for Americans. Those atheists over in Europe can drink all they want of this devil water from Mars.

If you re-condense the steam back into water on American soil, should it not then be given citizenship rights? :o

[mike777]

If you re-condense the steam back into water on American soil, should it not then be given citizenship rights? :o

 

 

again see what Europe is thinking most important and why we see Europe as a museum....

 

old very old and pretty

 

for Europe...re condense water top priority

[Trinidad]

There is plenty of racism still in the USA, and I witnessed blatant racism very close up during the 1960s. However, if this situation happened more recently, I'm surprised to learn of it. What years did you encounter restaurants that would not serve your colored friends?

In the 90's. And they didn't have a sign in the window "Blacks not allowed". When my friends came, they just said that they were full (when there was ample place in the restaurant then they were "short on staff") and when my (white) girl friend and I walked in 2 minutes later we got a table immediately... also when we added: "for 8 please". When we heard that they had refused our friends, we obviously didn't want to eat there anymore.

 

The first time that this happened (at the local Pizza Hut), it was mere coincidence and I was completely naive and innocent. At other occasions, my girl friend and I "set it up": we let the colored people get in first and then we would come in. The vast majority of restaurants past this little test easily, but a few (let's say "less than 5" ;)) simply failed. So Pizza Hut wasn't the only place.

 

My colored friends could eat at McDonalds, but we never went there either. They didn't want to serve "hamburgers without meat" (i.e. only bun, cheese, pickle, condiments) to accommodate vegetarian hindus. So, we always went to Burger King instead. (There, the Indians could simply order a "veggie Whopper meal". This was not on the official menu but it was a Whopper without the meat, but with some extra cheese and veggies and the fries replaced by more expensive (and more "Indian") onion rings for the same price as a Whopper meal.) I would not call that racial discrimination on the part of McDonalds, but "culturally insensitive" seems to be an appropriate label. Burger King saw the Indians as customers: They need to be served and cared for. I think, the staff at McDonalds never saw them as customers.

 

Rik

[Zelandakh]

So, we always went to Burger King instead. (There, the Indians could simply order a "veggie Whopper meal".

It is perhaps worth pointing out that BK was typically using animal fat at that time so anything described as a veggie meal is a complete contradiction.