Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[johnu]

I also give plenty of money to charity (particularly relief after natural disasters) ...

 

Why bother responding to a troll post. Chas_LostAnyRemainingDignity was trying deflect the discussion by equating posters doing charitable work, with Dennison and his henchmen separating children from their parents and then saying they have low energy and are too tired to try to even try to unite them.

 

Even members of Congress have problems trying to get into those detention centers along the border, and it's basically a state secret about where many of the separated children are being imprisoned. Some of them are being sent as far as New England and the upper Midwest to unmarked facilities that are heavily guarded. Unless you are a skilled lawyer you aren't going to be able even start to help those separated children.

[Chas_P]

I also give plenty of money to charity (particularly relief after natural disasters), but I didn't mention it because he seemed to be talking about activity that requires you to get off your ass and work. I use my monetary gifts to assuage my guilt for being too lazy to do that.

 

It's the same reason I bought a condo and don't run for the board of trustees -- I'm lazy, and happy to pay my fees and let others do the work.

 

Thank you Barry and Richard for reasoned responses. Here is the point I was trying to make: Sitting around on an internet message board with a handful of people bitching at each other (and I'm just as guilty as anyone else) accomplishes nothing. Sitting around on an internet message board calling the POTUS a moron, racist, xenophobe, misogynist, homophobe, whatever, with small hands accomplishes nothing. What I would like to see is compromise and comity between our two political parties. Surely there is middle ground somewhere. I have voted for Democrats in the past and would do so again as soon as they convince me they are truly interested in improving the lives of average Americans. But all I've seen from them for over two years is a vicious attempt to regain power and undo the last Presidential election because they lost. I don't really like Trump, but let's face it. He's the Pres for about two more years (maybe 6). Jobs are increasing, wages are increasing, unemployment is low, consumer confidence is high, yada yada yada. And I do like that.

[Winstonm]

Back to Individual-1. The SDNY has subpoenaed his inauguration committee according to this from Marcy Wheeler:

 

The subpoena seeks information relating to a bunch of conspiracy-related crimes — parallel to the crimes Mueller looked at in the Russian investigation, but including other countries.

 

It discloses that prosecutors are investigating a litany of potential crimes: conspiracy against the US, false statements, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering, inaugural committee disclosure violations, and violations of laws prohibiting contributions by foreign nations and contributions in the name of another person, also known as straw donors.

 

I also understand there was low unemployment on John Gotti's block. I also remember that George Wallace of Alabama was a Democrat, as the entire south was Democratic back then.

[johnu]

...

Why is he still posting?

 

More mind blowing news in the latest news cycles.

 

Scoop: Insider leaks Trump's "Executive Time"-filled private schedules

 

This unusually voluminous leak gives us unprecedented visibility into how this president spends his days. The schedules, which cover nearly every working day since the midterms, show that Trump has spent around 60% of his scheduled time over the past 3 months in unstructured "Executive Time."

So that's what watching TV and talking to Hannity, Coulter, and Fox and friends is called. Clearly Dennison is not the James Brown of politics. :rolleyes: Dennison must be a fan of that 1980 movie "11 to 5".

 

'Willful Ignorance.' Inside President Trump's Troubled Intelligence Briefings

 

The officials, who include analysts who prepare Trump’s briefs and the briefers themselves, describe futile attempts to keep his attention by using visual aids, confining some briefing points to two or three sentences, and repeating his name and title as frequently as possible.

Two intelligence officers even reported that they have been warned to avoid giving the President intelligence assessments that contradict stances he has taken in public.

These are not new allegations as previous reports have pointed out Dennison's lack of focus and frightening short attention span.

[hrothgar]

What I would like to see is compromise and comity between our two political parties. Surely there is middle ground somewhere.

 

Chas,

 

Spending years acting like an ignorant asshole is an incredibly bad way to encourage compromise and comity, and this is precisely what you have done.

 

Moreover, its not a position that you get to put aside, because I don't know whether asshole Chas or reasonable Chas is the sock puppet and, sadly, bad money drives out the good...

[hrothgar]

Jobs are increasing, wages are increasing, unemployment is low, consumer confidence is high, yada yada yada. And I do like that.

 

Assume for the moment that Trump has anything to do with the current state of the economy (which is far from clear)...

 

Mark says it best: "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

[Winstonm]

It is finally starting to dawn on some people that they have been conned:

 

Dennis Jordan

@DennisMJordan

Replying to @GOPChairwoman @GOP

I am a Republican voter. I just did our taxes.

 

The @GOP tax bill cost my family THOUSANDS of dollars this year on our return due to changes, thereby hitting us with the LARGEST tax increase of our lives.

 

We are middle-class homeowners, and you raised our taxes.

 

Infuriating!

 

96

7:57 AM - Feb 5, 2019

 

 

 

Iamnewatthis

@sandynewtothis

Replying to @realDonaldTrump

I have to pay $2000 MORE in taxes this year! What happened?? I voted for you and thought you were fixing this, not making it worse!? I thought I would get money back this year!?

 

1,653

1:56 PM - Feb 1, 2019

 

Nycgirl

@nlnp99

Replying to @WhiteHouse @POTUS

Voted for you . Family of

2 hard working N.Y. cops. Did taxes for years we would pay more and get a refund at the end of the year to help pay debt . First time in 30 years We had to pay more in Federal

Taxes. I’m disgusted

 

16

8:13 PM - Feb 4, 2019

 

 

Joel Serbin

@JoelSerbin

@POTUS thank you for screwing the middle class with your tax reform. I have never in my life, I’m 49 years old, had to pay into the IRS until this year. We have a combined income of 150,000. The middle class voted for you. I will not make the same mistake twice.

 

4

11:15 PM - Feb 3, 2019

 

Shelby Kuh

@ShelbyKuh

Replying to @realDonaldTrump

I voted for you the first time but after you screwed me on my get tax break I won’t vote for you again especially after I started on my 2018 return it’s a joke the taxes you are keeping from a working person good luck in 2020

 

22

7:23 AM - Feb 2, 2019

 

Just wait until a recession starts and the base will fall to about 22% - all the hardcore racists.

[barmar]

Thank you Barry and Richard for reasoned responses. Here is the point I was trying to make: Sitting around on an internet message board with a handful of people bitching at each other (and I'm just as guilty as anyone else) accomplishes nothing. Sitting around on an internet message board calling the POTUS a moron, racist, xenophobe, misogynist, homophobe, whatever, with small hands accomplishes nothing. What I would like to see is compromise and comity between our two political parties. Surely there is middle ground somewhere. I have voted for Democrats in the past and would do so again as soon as they convince me they are truly interested in improving the lives of average Americans. But all I've seen from them for over two years is a vicious attempt to regain power and undo the last Presidential election because they lost. I don't really like Trump, but let's face it. He's the Pres for about two more years (maybe 6). Jobs are increasing, wages are increasing, unemployment is low, consumer confidence is high, yada yada yada. And I do like that.

Isn't that exactly what it was like during the Obama presidency as well? The Republicans in Congress made it very clear that their only goal was to obstruct anything he proposed. Getting the ACA passed required enormous concessions from the Democrats (some of which are now being exploited by the Trump administration to weaken it even more, making failure a self-fulfilling prophecy).

 

I really wish POTUS and Congress could act like adults and work together. But that's not how politics is played these days. Trump is apparently willing to hold innocent children and government workers hostage for his stupid pet projects. How can reasonable people be expected to deal with someone like that?

 

Trump has always called himself a great deal maker. But what he actually is is a big bully. In his businesses, his "great deals" have often involved paying his suppliers a fraction of what he owes them, and daring them to fight him over it.

[y66]

Happy birthday to

.

[Winstonm]

In what kind of world do we want to live?

 

 

The gravity of the threat to global freedom requires the United States to shore up and expand its alliances with fellow democracies and deepen its own commitment to the values they share. Only a united front among the world’s democratic nations—and a defense of democracy as a universal right rather than the historical inheritance of a few Western societies—can roll back the world’s current authoritarian and antiliberal trends. By contrast, a withdrawal of the United States from global engagement on behalf of democracy, and a shift to transactional or mercenary relations with allies and rivals alike, will only accelerate the decline of democratic norms.

[Chas_P]

Getting the ACA passed required enormous concessions from the Democrats (some of which are now being exploited by the Trump administration to weaken it even more, making failure a self-fulfilling prophecy).

IIRC, before the bill's passage all the polls showed that the majority of Americans, which I assume included Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, opposed it. Yet the Democrats, led by Nancy Pelosi and her enormous gavel crammed it down our collective throats anyway. And after it's passage Jonathan Gruber, the law's chief architect, stated publicly, "This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the 'stupidity of the American voter' or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass." So apparently the will of "we the people" was completely ignored by the people we elect to represent us.

 

I really wish POTUS and Congress could act like adults and work together.

So do I.

[Chas_P]

Chas,

 

Spending years acting like an ignorant asshole is an incredibly bad way to encourage compromise and comity, and this is precisely what you have done.

 

Moreover, its not a position that you get to put aside, because I don't know whether asshole Chas or reasonable Chas is the sock puppet and, sadly, bad money drives out the good...

 

As previously stated, bitching on an internet message board accomplishes nothing. Neither does name-calling unless perhaps it makes you feel better about yourself.

[Winstonm]

IIRC, before the bill's passage all the polls showed that the majority of Americans, which I assume included Democrats, Republicans, and Independents, opposed it. Yet the Democrats, led by Nancy Pelosi and her enormous gavel crammed it down our collective throats anyway. And after it's passage Jonathan Gruber, the law's chief architect, stated publicly, "This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the 'stupidity of the American voter' or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical to getting the thing to pass." So apparently the will of "we the people" was completely ignored by the people we elect to represent us.

 

 

 

 

This is absolute BS. The reason the ACA went as it did was because no Republican was allowed (by McConnell and Co.) to vote for it in the Senate and Ted Kennedy died so The only way to get the bill passed was for the House to send it back exactly as it came from the Senate - which it did.

[Chas_P]

This is absolute BS. The reason the ACA went as it did was because no Republican was allowed (by McConnell and Co.) to vote for it in the Senate and Ted Kennedy died so The only way to get the bill passed was for the House to send it back exactly as it came from the Senate - which it did.

 

So the polls were wrong? The majority of Americans were all for it? I'm just askin'.

[PassedOut]

The Publics Views on the ACA

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[kenberg]

I took a quick look. At

https://www.realclea...1130.html#polls

it is said that in 2010, 51.4% of the pubic opposed the ACA and 39.9% of the public approved of it.

 

I have no knowledge of how well these figures stand up to scrutiny. For example I would like to see the actual question that was asked before I make much of this. Something such as "Do you (a) hope that the ACA bill passes and becomes law or (b) do you hope that the bill fails to become law or ( c ) do you not give a hoot or (d) do you have no idea of what I am talking about ?". That would be a good question to have asked. Maybe they did.

 

I am recording the State of the Union address. I am hoping that I do not really have to watch it. We bought some wine to help us through it but we have already finished it off. I try to be a good citizen but some things are just too much to ask of me.

[Winstonm]

So the polls were wrong? The majority of Americans were all for it? I'm just askin'.

 

Whoever sold you the narrative you are repeating is wrong.

 

PRINCETON, NJ -- Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress' passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it "a good thing." Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split.

[kenberg]

Whoever sold you the narrative you are repeating is wrong.

 

 

 

The numbers apparently jumped around a bit..

 

Here is something from March 9 of 2010

https://news.gallup....hcare-Plan.aspx

I couldn't get your link to come up directly but probably it was to the Mar 23 story:

https://news.gallup....ll-passage.aspx

Mar 23 was the day Obama signed it. So it might well be correct that more opposed it than supported it before the vote, but after it was passed the numbers switched.

[Winstonm]

The numbers apparently jumped around a bit..

 

Here is something from March 9 of 2010

https://news.gallup....hcare-Plan.aspx

I couldn't get your link to come up directly but probably it was to the Mar 23 story:

https://news.gallup....ll-passage.aspx

Mar 23 was the day Obama signed it. So it might well be correct that more opposed it than supported it before the vote, but after it was passed the numbers switched.

 

I had the same problem - now the link isn't working. But from your link:

The high point in public support was 51% in October.

That hardly supports the narrative that before the bill passed a majority was against it.

 

I found it again.

 

POLITICS

MARCH 23, 2010

By Slim Margin, Americans Support Healthcare Bill's Passage

Independents evenly split in their basic reactions, but more are "angry" than "enthusiastic"

BY LYDIA SAAD

PRINCETON, NJ -- Nearly half of Americans give a thumbs-up to Congress' passage of a healthcare reform bill last weekend, with 49% calling it "a good thing." Republicans and Democrats have polar opposite reactions, with independents evenly split.

 

The findings, from a March 22 USA Today/Gallup poll conducted one day after the bill received a majority of votes in the U.S. House of Representatives, represent immediate reactions to the vote.

 

Americans' emotional responses to the bill's passage are more positive than negative -- with 50% enthusiastic or pleased versus 42% angry or disappointed -- and are similar to their general reactions.

 

Although much of the public debate over healthcare reform has been heated, barely a third of rank-and-file citizens express either enthusiasm (15%) or anger (19%) about the bill's passage. However, only Democrats show greater enthusiasm than anger. Independents are twice as likely to be angry as enthusiastic, and Republicans 10 times as likely.

[johnu]

The Public’s Views on the ACA

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

Engaging with Chas_LostAllDignityLostAllHonor is a futile exercise.

[kenberg]

 

That hardly supports the narrative that before the bill passed a majority was against it.

 

 

 

True enough, but "a high point of 51% in October" doesn't show great entusiasm either, and some of the low points were considerably lower.

Athttps://news.gallup.com/poll/125030/Healthcare-Bill-Support-Ticks-Up-Public-Divided.aspx?utm_source=link_newsv9&utm_campaign=item_126521&utm_medium=copy

they have a graph covering the last several months before the bill was past. At times there are more in favor than aganist, at times it's the other way around. Probably we should be restrained in claiming either majority support or majority opposition in early 2010. Now, as indicated by the Kaiser report that PassedOut cites, there seems to be a majority that support it. A close look at details could be warranted.

 

Some people are much more affected than others. As near as I can tell, the ACA has had no influence at all on either the cost or the effectiveness of my coverage. Not yet anyway, although there is something in the works, I'll skip the detains, that might affect things, perhaps a little adversely. So I am not so sure that my opinion counts for much. I want a good program for the sake of those who need it, of course, but directly for me it doesn't seem to matter.

 

Somewhere along the way, the argument from Ds seems to have shifted from "Fix the ACA, but keep it don't repeal it" to "Let's go with Medicare for all". I suppose that I will have to understand this well enough to have an opinion. Sort of like filing taxes. Not pleasant, but it needs to be done.

[hrothgar]

True enough, but "a high point of 51% in October" doesn't show great entusiasm either, and some of the low points were considerably lower.

 

Why does anyone actually care how well the ACA polls?

 

1. Looking at polls in isolation is meaningless. As a rule, medical care in the US polls extremely extremely unpopularly, especially amongst anyone who needs to use it who has anything but a Cadillac plan. People hate what they have, people hate any viable option, and they only thing that the average voter actually likes is "Give me everything for free and make sure to screw over the blacks"

 

2. I would think that recent experiences with, say, Brexit or the election of Trump show the perils of putting to great faith in voice of the hoi poloi.

 

Obsessing over small shifts in polls over time seems like an exercise in frustration...

[y66]

I am recording the State of the Union address. I am hoping that I do not really have to watch it. We bought some wine to help us through it but we have already finished it off. I try to be a good citizen but some things are just too much to ask of me.

Sin boldly. You will be forgiven.

[kenberg]

Why does anyone actually care how well the ACA polls?

 

1. Looking at polls in isolation is meaningless. As a rule, medical care in the US polls extremely extremely unpopularly, especially amongst anyone who needs to use it who has anything but a Cadillac plan. People hate what they have, people hate any viable option, and they only thing that the average voter actually likes is "Give me everything for free and make sure to screw over the blacks"

 

2. I would think that recent experiences with, say, Brexit or the election of Trump show the perils of putting to great faith in voice of the hoi poloi.

 

Obsessing over small shifts in polls over time seems like an exercise in frustration...

 

I upvoted, but I want to also be explicit about my agreement on the limitation of polls, practically any polls. I mentioned earlier I would want to see the exact question, but even if the question is very well phrased there is still only a limited amount we can get out of polls. Part of the problem is that when we are not directly affected we often do not look closely. This is not just understandable, it is inevitable. I can look closely at some issues, but there are a lot of issues. I can find Venezuela on a map, I know the capital is Caracas. already this puts me ahead of many people, but if you want a through analysis of the issues there, ask someone else. It sounds like a mess. I hope whoever is making choices knows more than I do.

 

And health issues? I know people who are directly affected by the ACA but do I know them well enough to have a through discussion with them about how this has worked out? Not really.

 

And so on.

 

If a pollster asks if I favor having a health system that gives decent medical care to people of modest means, I know the answer. Yes. Beyond that, it gets tricky.

 

[y66]

From The speech of a president whose power is draining by Edward Luce, Washington correspondent for the Financial Times:

 

It was the speech of a president whose power is rapidly draining. It came barely a week after Mr Trump caved into Democratic pressure to reopen the US government following a record 35-day shutdown without having secured a dime of funding for the wall. It came just eight days before the US government is set to close again unless Mr Trump agrees to whatever budget deal a bipartisan committee sends to his desk. It will not include any funding for the wall. At which point, Mr Trump will sign because he cannot afford to be blamed for another shutdown. He is then likely to declare a national emergency — one that his most loyal enforcers, most importantly Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, have declared in advance to be constitutionally unwise. In spite of this, Mr Trump insisted on Tuesday night that “I’ll get it [the wall] built”. He has backed himself into a corner from which there is no escape. Without a wall, Mr Trump’s base will drift away. Yet he can only fund one by manufacturing a crisis he would be almost certain to lose.

 

The other significant message in Mr Trump’s speech was an attack on socialism. Cold War presidents would routinely warn against the Soviet version. It is hard to recollect a US president worrying about socialism at home. Yet Mr Trump’s bromide was borne of a shrewd political calculus. Many of the unapplauding Democrats in front of him today happily flaunt a word that was until recently taboo in US politics. The brewing Democratic presidential primaries are turning into a social democratic beauty contest. Mr Trump knows he could profit from that. “Today we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country,” he said to thunderous applause from half the chamber.

 

As for the traditional laundry list of presidential to-do items, most Americans will struggle to name a single one 48 hours from now. The speech was remarkably light on specifics, even by Mr Trump’s standards.

 

There was a content-free reference to infrastructure — no mention of cost, mechanism or rationale. He talked a little about lowering prescription drug prices and funding a cure for childhood cancer. These were the most tired passages in the speech. It was clear Mr Trump neither expected, nor particularly wanted, to make bipartisan hay with the Democrats. The feeling was clearly mutual. The 2020 election is already under way.

 

Two things are clear. The first is that Mr Trump will bill the election as a battle between him and a socialist. “We were born free and we will stay free,” he said on Tuesday. The second is that it will take place against the backdrop of a missing wall.