Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Winstonm]

[citation needed]

 

studies suggest even infants prefer their own race.

 

I don't think that constitutes racism, at least not as I understand racism. To me, racism is the teaching that other persons are less human or less important due to their differences. Cognition is required for racism, IMO.

 

In the animal world - of which humans are part - the young must be able to distinguish its own kind in order to survive. So it is not clear to me that the results of testing human infants displays bigotry tendencies rather than discriminatory preference.

[jjbrr]

I don't think that constitutes racism, at least not as I understand racism. To me, racism is the teaching that other persons are less human or less important due to their differences. Cognition is required for racism, IMO.

 

In the animal world - of which humans are part - the young must be able to distinguish its own kind in order to survive. So it is not clear to me that the results of testing human infants displays bigotry tendencies rather than discriminatory preference.

 

The fact that racism in some form or another has existed throughout the entirety of human history suggests to me that it's more than just something that kids pick up from their parents as they get older.

[Winstonm]

The fact that racism in some form or another has existed throughout the entirety of human history suggests to me that it's more than just something that kids pick up from their parents as they get older.

 

It doesn't have to be parents. It could be the culture, peers, leaders, religion, or any combination of those. Could it be you (or me) are confusing racism with bigotry or prejudice? Here is something I found to help with just that question:

 

Are prejudice, bigotry, and racism the same thing?

No. And this is a HUGE source of misunderstanding.

 

Prejudice is when a person negatively pre-judges another person or group without getting to know the beliefs, thoughts, and feelings behind their words and actions. A person of any racial group can be prejudiced towards a person of any other racial group. There is no power dynamic involved.

 

Bigotry is stronger than prejudice, a more severe mindset and often accompanied by discriminatory behavior. It’s arrogant and mean-spirited, but requires neither systems nor power to engage in. So, we can conclude that throughout history prejudice has been on display but not always have bigotry and racism followed.

 

Racism is the system that allows the racial group that’s already in power to retain power. Since arriving on U.S. soil white people have used their power to create preferential access to survival resources (housing, education, jobs, food, health, legal protection, etc.) for white people while simultaneously impeding people of color’s access to these same resources.Though "reverse racism" is a term I sometimes hear, it has never existed in America. White people are the only racial group to have ever established and retained power in the United States.

 

If we assume these definitions correct, we would say that the infants displayed prejudice for their own kind and against others based on skin color.

 

It appears to me that unless cognition is developed - at least using these definitions - neither bigotry nor racism can be developed.

[jjbrr]

I guess we'll have to disagree. I read "preferential access to survival resources" as instinctual rather than learned.

[jjbrr]

To be clear, Rick Gates will plead down to conspiracy against the United States of America. Lordy.

[Winstonm]

I guess we'll have to disagree. I read "preferential access to survival resources" as instinctual rather than learned.

 

I don't know if it is a disagreement unless you think discrimination, bigotry, and racism are all the same. We may be talking past each other rather than to each other. :)

[jjbrr]

Former Trump campaign aide Richard W. Gates III is expected to plead guilty today to conspiracy and lying about a 2013 Ukraine-related meeting between his former business partner Paul Manafort, a lobbyist and California Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Moscow).

 

That's how you know we're family.

[Winstonm]

"I will only hire the best people..."

 

Papadopoulos(guilty), Flynn(guilty), Gates(guilty), Manafort(???)....

[Winstonm]

And this is pretty interesting:

Seth Waxman, now a partner specializing in white-collar crime in Dickinson Wright’s Washington office, has a theory of Mueller’s case, which requires no novel reading of existing law to find Trump broke it. It employs the main weapon any federal prosecutor uses to police public corruption. It is Title 18 United States Code, section 201 that specifically makes it a crime for a public official to take “anything of value,” a bribe, in exchange for government action, which can be prospective.

 

Note that above I wrote “public official.” That’s because the law is generally wielded against public officials. Problem: Mueller is investigating conduct before Trump became one. Enter Waxman. He points out that in 1962, Congress extended the bribery law to cover activity prior to the assumption of office. It did so, he says, in order to close a “loophole” afforded those “who assume public office under a corrupt commitment.” The upshot? Trump became covered by 18 USC not when he was sworn in but as of July 21, 2016 when he became his party’s nominee in Cleveland, Ohio.

 

What we know of Mueller’s strategy so far is consistent with leveling charges under the bribery statute. This is not to say Mueller is going to indict Trump. He would need an exception from a Justice Department rule, which advises against it. But neither is he likely to send a report laying out grounds for impeachment as former independent counsel Ken Starr did against Bill Clinton relying solely on perjury and obstruction of justice without a finding of an underlying crime.

 

This would mean any promise of quid pro quo that occurred from July 21, 2016 until the January 2017 inauguration could still be criminally charged.

[hrothgar]

BREAKING: New Mueller charges against former Trump Campaign Chair Paul Manafort:

 

Conspiracy

 

Money Laundering

 

Foreign lobbying charges

 

Causing another to mislead Mueller probe in 2016 and Feb. 2017 - an allegation of obstructive actions while Trump was in office

[nige1]

In this Forum, Russians appear to be fair game; otherwise ageism seems more common than racism. IMO, where law permits, calm factual debate on such topics can be beneficial.

[jjbrr]

BREAKING: New Mueller charges against former Trump Campaign Chair Paul Manafort:

 

Conspiracy

 

Money Laundering

 

Foreign lobbying charges

 

Causing another to mislead Mueller probe in 2016 and Feb. 2017 - an allegation of obstructive actions while Trump was in office

 

BREAKING: A federal Grand Jury has returned a new superseding indictment in the Manafort case.

 

The indictment says that Manafort, “secretly retained a group of former senior European politicians to take positions favorable to Ukraine, including by lobbying in the United States”

 

Might be interesting to charge these lobbyists with FARA violations and see what else they know.

 

It seems Mueller's original indictments were just a warning shot with the hopes of getting Manafort to sing. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that he's afraid of flipping lest he or his family got suicided.

[hrothgar]

In this Forum, Russians appear to be fair game; otherwise ageism seems more common than racism. IMO, where law permits, calm factual debate on such topics can be beneficial.

 

Nigel, I don't recall anyone making discriminatory statements about Russians...

 

Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.

I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.

 

But please, feel free to prove me wrong...

Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...

[jjbrr]

The indictment says the group was managed by a former European chancellor. Court papers accuse Manafort of using offshore accounts to pay the group more than 2 million euros.

 

Sept 2017:

Gerhard Schroeder, the man who Angela Merkel succeeded as Chancellor of Germany, has just been appointed to the chairman’s job at oil company Rosneft.

[y66]

From Megan McArdle's story about Denmark and prospects for importing Denmark's values into the US:

 

When I asked people in Copenhagen about the secret of Denmark’s remarkable success, I kept hearing the same thing: “Trust.”

 

“Trust,” said a photographer, when I asked him the best thing about living in Denmark. “If we agree on something, you would live up to that.” That confidence, he added, “makes everyday life more comfortable.”

 

“There’s a lot of social trust,” a speechwriter at the culture ministry told me. “Farmers putting out their products by the roadside, and then putting a jar and saying, ‘Put money in this.’ It’s very common here, and it works.”

 

Las Olsen, chief economist at Danske Bank, said: “We have this high trust, and it is a huge asset. It is very good for productivity that you don’t have to spend a lot of time and money checking everything.”

 

Olsen has lived abroad, and when I asked him if it was really that different in Denmark, he said: “Oh, yes. When you come from Denmark to other countries you tend to trust people too much. Danes can get ripped off in the beginning.” He paused for emphasis. “It is a real phenomenon. And it is often one reason why people seem to be happier, and I think that makes sense. It’s very detrimental to be cheated, to feel that you’re cheated, or that you might be cheated.”

 

And yes, statistics show that the Scandinavian countries are the most trusting places in the world.

 

...On my first day of interviews, I met with Lars Hvidberg, who works as a speechwriter at the culture ministry. Hvidberg has lived in the U.S., so he seemed well qualified to speculate about the differences between the two countries.

 

“There are basically four stories about Denmark,” he said. Here’s a breakdown:

 

The social liberal story: Free education, free speech and democratic government have created social trust and the ability of people to take responsibility and to act for themselves.

 

The social democracy story: Benefits are high and the taxes are high, which creates equality and trust and enables people to plan for the long term without fear of destitution.

 

The market liberal story: The real reason Denmark is so successful is that compared to other countries, it’s actually very classically liberal. It has free trade, low regulation, almost no corruption, and makes it easy to start a company.

 

The nationalist version: The reason Denmark has a well-functioning society is that it’s homogeneous, with a lot of people who think the same, and who place a high value on things like work and honesty and trust toward strangers. In other words, Denmark works so well because it’s full of Danes.

 

A little apologetically, he said, “I believe all of these stories are true.”

 

Americans who look enviously at Denmark generally want to import some of these things. The conservative Heritage Foundation would undoubtedly like the U.S. to copy Denmark’s collaborative, low-key approach to business regulation. The progressives who write articles about the cradle-to-grave welfare system would like to copy its generous benefits, and believe that if the U.S. did so, the trust would follow. The emerging U.S. nationalist wing would perhaps like to copy the homogeneity.

 

But what Hvidberg is suggesting is that these things come in a package. You can’t simply pull some elements out and get the same results. And basically all the Danes I spoke to, from far-left Green Party types to market liberals, agreed that Denmark would be hard to replicate without Danes.

 

I asked Bjornskov if there was some way the U.S. could make itself more trusting. Unfortunately, he told me, the literature is better at showing us how to destroy trust than to build it.

 

...I think Sanders is right that the U.S. could learn useful things from Scandinavia. He’s just wrong about which things. Danish business regulations and its welfare state can’t be successfully imported without first learning to trust one another, and to be trustworthy.

 

And that’s something we’re all going to have to do together. Which means that whatever Danish-style institutions you like, you can’t get them by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with you. These institutions, it turns out, can’t be built with policy papers or political activism. They can only be built through better interactions with each other, one neighbor at a time.

We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.

[kenberg]

From Megan McArdle's story about Denmark and prospects for importing Denmark's values into the US:

 

 

We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.

 

Or I could lend you my copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Or something from the Harry Hole series. Or the Department Q series. All Danish I think. But I quibble, really I take your point and my limited experience with Danish culture inclines me to believe the description in the article. But then I think all of the Danes I have known have been mathematicians, and mathematicians are honest by nature.

 

We can, perhaps, learn from other cultures. Every society has its own history, its own problems, its own solutions. Still, it can't hurt to pay a little attention to how others deal with problems.

 

I tend to trust people. Usually that works out. I make exceptions.

[hrothgar]

Or I could lend you my copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Or something from the Harry Hole series. Or the Department Q series. All Danish I think. But I quibble, really I take your point and my limited experience with Danish culture inclines me to believe the description in the article. But then I think all of the Danes I have known have been mathematicians, and mathematicians are honest by nature.

 

 

The first is Swedish and the second Norwiegan

Not sure about the third...

[hrothgar]

Nigel, I don't recall anyone making discriminatory statements about Russians...

 

Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.

I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.

 

But please, feel free to prove me wrong...

Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...

 

Nigel!

 

It was just two weeks ago that you were explain how you always "Stood up for truth" and admitted when you made mistakes and wanted to learn...

 

I'm beginning to believe that these claims weren't completely sincere...

Say that it isn't so...

[kenberg]

The first is Swedish and the second Norwegian

Not sure about the third...

 

My error. I have sent off some spit to 23andme and I suppose I will find out I am all wrong about what I thought there as well. (Three quarter Norwegian, I think.)

 

Anyway I am right on the third.

 

https://crimefiction...tment-q-series/

 

I really should have gotten the Dragon Tattoo right since I have read all three of them and (!) seen the Swedish language film. And the English language film, for that matter.

 

And I was going to mention Kurt Wallander, but he is also Swedish. Oh well.

[nige1]

Nigel!It was just two weeks ago that you were explain how you always "Stood up for truth" and admitted when you made mistakes and wanted to learn...I'm beginning to believe that these claims weren't completely sincere...Say that it isn't so...

 

Hrothgar, you often cast aspersions on my sincerity :( If you sincerely doubt my impression, then you can waste your own time, searching this thread for adverse "Russian" references. I think that you'll find lots of them and some that specifically refer to businessmen, lawyers, oligarchs, etc.

[barmar]

The fact that racism in some form or another has existed throughout the entirety of human history suggests to me that it's more than just something that kids pick up from their parents as they get older.

Religion has also existed in some form throughout human history, and some neuroscientists even suggest that the capacity for religion is innate, like the capacity for language. But a specific religion has to be indoctrinated -- a child will not become Christian spontaneously.

[hrothgar]

Hrothgar, you often cast aspersions on my sincerity :( If you sincerely doubt my impression, then you can waste your own time, searching this thread for adverse "Russian" references. I think that you'll find lots of them and some that specifically refer to businessmen, lawyers, oligarchs, etc.

 

Nigel, you are correct. I have very little respect for you and frequently cast aspersions regarding both your motives and your intelligence.

 

This latest exchange is a perfect example of why I do so...

 

I challenged to come up with examples where forum posters are discriminating against the Russian people rather the government.

You come back with "Plenty of examples of people discriminating against Russian oligarchs..."

 

The Russian government is a kleptocracy.

When people are criticizing Russian oligarchs, they are criticizing the Russian government.

Same with these "businessmen" and "lawyers".

You don't seriously believe that Natalia Veselnitskaya is some independent party who just happened to wander into Trump tower, do you?

 

FWIW, if you were just some random idiot, I'd probably let things slide.

But you place yourself on such a very high pedestal.

 

Your almost a poster child for some version of the Dunning–Kruger effect that operates on moral sanctimony rather than intelligence.

[jjbrr]

i agree with that 100%. the high-horse schtick is incredibly obnoxious. the internet term is SJW or white knight.

[jjbrr]

Religion has also existed in some form throughout human history, and some neuroscientists even suggest that the capacity for religion is innate, like the capacity for language. But a specific religion has to be indoctrinated -- a child will not become Christian spontaneously.

 

What's your point? Fairy tales have existed throughout human history with the goal of teaching some lessons. Calling it religion doesn't change what it is.

[nige1]

Nigel, you are correct. I have very little respect for you and frequently cast aspersions regarding both your motives and your intelligence.This latest exchange is a perfect example of why I do so...I challenged to come up with examples where forum posters are discriminating against the Russian people rather the government.You come back with "Plenty of examples of people discriminating against Russian oligarchs..."The Russian government is a kleptocracy.When people are criticizing Russian oligarchs, they are criticizing the Russian government.Same with these "businessmen" and "lawyers".You don't seriously believe that Natalia Veselnitskaya is some independent party who just happened to wander into Trump tower, do you?FWIW, if you were just some random idiot, I'd probably let things slide.But you place yourself on such a very high pedestal.Your almost a poster child for some version of the Dunning–Kruger effect that operates on moral sanctimony rather than intelligence.

 

IMO, there appears to be US bias against Russians. Hrothgar is welcome to develop finer distinctions but I have no time to waste researching them. I am entitled to an interest in freedom and justice. I don't claim to be a History or Politics expert .

 

Some clever people seem to accumulate wisdom with age. We can learn from some of Noam Chomsky's arguments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ni3j1mhU5M