Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[barmar]

I'm sorry, but after the way Obama was attacked (You lie! screamed out during his SOTU address, accused of not being legitimately American), it seems disingenuous to complain about calling this president by names he has surely earned: Fredo Corleone: "I'm really smart." Donald Trump: "I'm a smart person."

When one side supports personality instead of the rule of law and democracy there can be do legitimate debate.

Sorry, but it's hard to claim the moral high ground when you stoop to the opponent's level.

 

Trump did attack Obama quite a bit during his presidency, but "You lie!" wasn't him. The entire GOP side of Congress was against him.

[PassedOut]

As Ken has pointed out on occasion, many folks have neither the time nor inclination to follow politics with the intensity of posters here. So what can be obvious to those of us following the misadventures of the current US administration won't be obvious to everyone.

 

Conservative columnist Jennifer Rubin has this advice: Democrats, heres how to win over the newly independent, ex-Republicans

 

So whats a Democrat to do? Dont scare them off for one thing. Sound like sober grown-ups. Reject anti-immigrant hysteria on moral grounds as well as economic (we need trade and need immigrants). Remind voters that what makes us American is not race or ethnicity but values and a shared democratic creed. Be tough but sane on foreign policy. Trump has left us with our guard down and saber rattled with no real game-plan for defusing the North Korea crisis. Being clear that Russia poses a threat, our intelligence community is valued and we face a dangerous world where allies are needed will sound reassuring to these ex-GOP voters. And as for women, Democrats should be determined to expose and end abuse (in the executive or legislative branch, in the military, in business). That means candor, transparency (e.g., hearings) and a clear moral voice.

 

If Democrats can do these things promising to end Trumps abuse of power and the presidency (e.g., conflicts of interest, corruption) with hearings, transparency and accountability theyll win over a whole lot of Republican-leaning independents. Whats more, theyd lay the groundwork for 2020 when, Democrats better hope, a presidential nominee without Hillary Clintons baggage will provide the alternative to the unhinged party of Trump.

 

For my part, I hope that Trump (for whatever reason) does not appear on the presidential ballot in 2020. It's better for the country to have a legitimate choice of competent candidates who won't be a complete embarrassment if elected.

[Winstonm]

Sorry, but it's hard to claim the moral high ground when you stoop to the opponent's level.

 

Trump did attack Obama quite a bit during his presidency, but "You lie!" wasn't him. The entire GOP side of Congress was against him.

 

That's my point. It is not just this president but the entirety of the far-right wing of the Republican party and its propaganda machine that cannot be taken seriously by serious-minded people. The notion is that it is O.K. to be a fan of pro wrestling if you like mindless, crass entertainment as a temporary escape from reality; however, it is not O.K. when you begin to believe that pro wrestling represents reality.

 

I mean, how mind-numbingly biased do you have to be to pretend that this administration is not one of the most corrupt and dishonest in US history, regardless of party affiliation, and if this president could turn the U.S. into a Russian-style oligarchy he would? https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/veterans-affairs-chief-shulkin-staff-misled-ethics-officials-about-european-trip-report-finds/2018/02/14/f7fbc020-0c3a-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_shulkintrip-1115am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.dc4d317ca5f3

Veterans Affairs Secretary David J. Shulkin’s chief of staff doctored an email and made false statements to create a pretext for taxpayers to cover expenses for the secretary’s wife on a 10-day trip to Europe last summer, the agency’s inspector general has found.

[blackshoe]

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm just trying to rationalize our minimalist approach to moderation.

You're not wrong. Not about the best approach to moderation, anyway.

[barmar]

I mean, how mind-numbingly biased do you have to be to pretend that this administration is not one of the most corrupt and dishonest in US history, regardless of party affiliation,

Many on the other side still believe the claims that "Crooked Hillary" was behind Benghazi. If that were actually true, it would totally dwarf use of government funds for personal gain.

[Winstonm]

Many on the other side still believe the claims that "Crooked Hillary" was behind Benghazi. If that were actually true, it would totally dwarf use of government funds for personal gain.

 

And in all the investigations about Benghazi, what was found? Nothing. Nada.

 

It's one thing to talk the reality of actions that occurred - the Lewinsky affair and Bill Clinton's attempts to hide it - but to keep alive rumor, innuendo, lies, and balderdash is wrongheaded, and to purposefully create and orchestrate the perpetuation of a gross lie (such as Fox News did with the Seth Rich murder) in order to try to influence a potential future pool of political jurors is borderline obstruction of justice and should cause any person of personal integrity to abandon those broadcasts as a viable source of information.

 

"There is no difference between the Russia investigation and the Clinton Foundation scandal or Benghazi tragedy because none of them has been proven yet", I can hear the right-winger claim. This falls back on the same false equivalence that many religious use to equate belief with non-belief because both are based on faith, or that evolution and directed creationism are equal because both are "theories" only.

 

Well, the difference is that Russia has been shown to have committed crimes against the U.S., and the investigation into those crimes and who may have participated is ongoing. That other crimes may be uncovered during this investigation is a legitimate and stated part of the investigation process.

 

Benghazi is a closed investigation that found no wrongdoing.

[nige1]

.As you all know I do not write in this topic a lot but I follow it. And I find some really helpful/smart arguments which helps me to look at things from the shoe of others, or replies which I think is expressed the way i feel, with better words than I would and you can see this from my +1 likes now and then. But it is really frustrating to see the trolls and those who pretend like they complain about trolls when they actually love it!

A troll is somebody whose views are so much at variance with our own that we feel they must be suppressed. For example: "racist" arguments -- unless directed against Russians :(

 

IMO, we should not wantonly impede freedom of speech, for which our forebears sacrificed so much.

 

This thread is rife with hypocrisy. On disputed evidence, the Russians are accused of hacking into Hilary's emails. This just resulted in the exposure of a conspiracy against democracy. In the unlikely event that Putin was responsible, he should be eligible for honorary US citizenship :)

 

Countries routinely interfere in each other's politics. Propaganda and Espionage are deplorable facts of life. In the past, the US perpetrated awful political crimes (e.g. in South America). Recently, we supported Pol Pot and Al Qaeda, funded the ousting of the Ukraine president, killed the presidents of Libya and Iraq, and are currently fighting with Isis against Syria's Bashar al-Assad. Increase in military expenditure seems to be the main justification for proxy wars.

[Winstonm]

Didn't I read someone on these forums writing that this president's words were unimportant, that what was important was only what he does?

 

(emphasis added)

TERRORIST?

Nikolas Cruz Trained With White Supremacists, Group Claims

Hate group says the accused Florida school shooter did paramilitary exercises and got a rifle from members. Ex-students say he wore a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat in school.

 

I am going to have to not-so-respectfully disagree with that poster.

[Winstonm]

A troll is somebody whose views are so much at variance with your own that you feel they must the suppressed. IMO, we should not wantonly impede freedom of speech, for which our forebears fought so hard.

 

This thread is rife with hypocrisy. On disputed evidence, the Russians are accused of hacking into Hilary's emails. This just resulted in the exposure of a conspiracy against democracy. In the unlikely event that Putin was responsible, he should be eligible for honorary citizenship :)

 

Countries routinely interfere in each other's politics. Propaganda and Espionage are deplorable facts of life. In the past, the US perpetrated awful political crimes (e.g. in South America). Recently, we supported Pol Pot and Al Qaeda, funded the ousting of the Ukraine president, killed the presidents of Libya and Iraq, and are currently fighting with Isis against Syria's Bashar al-Assad. Increase in military expenditure seems to be the main justification for proxy wars.

 

Bull! An internet troll is someone who sows discord for the sole reason of enjoying the fleeting satisfaction and sense of power he feels at creating disharmony. It would be someone who made a post like you made who didn't truly believe what he wrote but simply did it to cause an uproar.

[nige1]

Bull! An internet troll is someone who sows discord for the sole reason of enjoying the fleeting satisfaction and sense of power he feels at creating disharmony.

I'm not a mind-reader but I feel Winston's definition might apply to many of the contributors to this thread.

It would be someone who made a post like you made who didn't truly believe what he wrote but simply did it to cause an uproar.

But Winston's definition doesn't apply to me. I post to persuade and to to learn from replies. I apologise when I make a mistake. Unfortunately, truth sometimes does annoy.. Nevertheless, I stand up for Truth.

[diana_eva]

Nevertheless, I stand up for Truth.

 

No you don't. You always inject an "allegedly" somewhere even when the facts are staring you in the face or sitting three posts above you.

[Winstonm]

I'm not a mind-reader but I feel Winston's definition might apply to many of the contributors to this thread.

 

But Winston's definition doesn't apply to me. I post to persuade and to to learn from replies. I apologise when I make a mistake. Unfortunately, truth sometimes does annoy.. Nevertheless, I stand up for Truth.

 

And I appreciate that you noticed I did not accuse you of being a troll - only of being misguided in your beliefs. A genuine troll would continue to respeat the same nonsense in the face of repeated contradictory facts.

[weejonnie]

Why do people insist on sharing their views on topics where they don't know the facts?

 

Obamacare includes tax increases that essentially pay for the entire cost.

In 2015, CBO analyzed the net effect of repealing Obamacare on the deficit:

 

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/presentation/50919-presentation.pdf

 

In other words, while the overall effect is uncertain, most likely Obamacare's tax increase are more than sufficient to pay for the cost, just as anticipated.

 

Basically, most of your post can be summed up by the following two sentences. "I am a conservative in the UK. Hence I believe that Obamacare is a bad thing."

I could add a lot more - but this site is generally about Bridge. I do not know enough to know whether Obamacare is/ was a bad thing. I DO know that the State does have responsibilities to those that through no fault of their own need medical treatment. Equally it has no responsibility to help those that refuse to accept the rules of the State - one of which I believe is that you must not try and overthrow the Government - including POTUS,. (At least that is what is on my Visa application when I travel over there). Another is : people entering the USA illegally have no right to remain there. However: what is The State? The quote Margaret Thatcher's statement "There is no such thing as society" has to be taken in context. The State is the embodiment of the wishes of the people that comprise society. You need a society where people care and, to be honest, as people earn more money they become less caring.

 

A 'conservative' in the UK is probably more centrist than a Republican in the USA. I know Americans put great store on self-reliance, however such striving for betterment must not mean that those who need help can be wilfully disregarded. The USA really does have to review it's healthcare systems and decide how to make them affordable. Throwing extra money per se does not work. If organisations know extra money is available they will try and get it - the easiest way is to increase fees for the supply of drugs and medical care, rather than providing better and more cost-effective treatments. You have to run healthcare as a business. By which I mean that you look for value for money in your expenses and aim to provide your customer with great service. When I am over in the USA, I am always struck by how polite and cherful everyone is who serves me. Yes it may be a facade or the result of training - but it improves my day.

 

Most countries have healthcare systems that are both public and private. I pay a monthly 'tax' on my earnings to help pay for services provided by the state - usually those that are too large to be planned, developed and administered by smaller organisations. No doubt you, too,know your tax dollars are at work, hopefully for the benefit of all Americans, however in the USA (as well in the UK) there are pressure groups and lobbyists demanding 'special treatment'. The trouble is: very few people want their money to be taken away from them in increasing amounts for the benefit of others. In the UK the Government borrows ££billions keeping the UK population in a standard of living which, to be frank, they do not deserve. In America, I believe the amount is $$trillions. Whilst Mr Trump may be managing to get companies to bring money back to the USA and also increasing pressure to increase wages for Americans - and thereby stimulating the economy, he must surely know that reducing the tax take is basically just for keeping his supporters happy - which bring me back to the phrase 'bread and circuses'.

[Winstonm]

This sums up the principle reason to resist to this particular president:

 

From WaPo:

Winston Churchill is supposed to have said: “With integrity, nothing else counts. Without integrity, nothing else counts.”

 

In fact, that seems to be one of those Churchillian epigrams that Churchill never actually got around to saying. But it captures an important truth about politics, that dishonor is like a cancer that spreads inexorably as it feeds upon ambition, protects itself with lies and doubles down with cover-ups.

 

Looking at the chaos in the White House these days, I worry about inexperience, incompetence and lack of judgment. But maybe I worry most about an utter lack of integrity — and the way it is proving infectious.

 

The contagion of dishonor has spread irresistibly through the White House staff, turning aides into con artists. Indifference to ethics has spread through the cabinet and agencies, resulting in endless scandals. And the epidemic has rippled through much of the G.O.P. (with some heroic exceptions), turning lawmakers into enablers and hypocrites

 

The head of a snake leads - the body follows.

[ggwhiz]

I apologize in advance for trying to hijack this thread off topic but what about policy?

 

The infrastructure proposal makes it clear that the cupboard is bare after the tax reform went through.

 

Canada did something similar and about 1/2 of the money didn't go out the door. Granted, Trump proposes a streamlined application/approval process that was problematic for us but ours was for 50% fed money and even that was a problem too, despite our local and Provincial governments whipping out the ole credit card at the drop of a hat.

 

A 20% fed buy in and touting it as a $1.5 trillion plan is a sad joke, akin to you buy the meal, I'll give the tip. I predict the buy in from States etc. will make our plan look like a success.

 

More policy, any news on actual oversight of the "broken" security clearance situation? 30-40 staffers in the WH without one and if the guy ultimately in charge of who gets one had to apply he would be rejected at the speed of light. Co-operation with allied intelligence agencies may become a relic.

[nige1]

No you don't. You always inject an "allegedly" somewhere even when the facts are staring you in the face or sitting three posts above you.

Unfortunately, we're not all blessed with the certainties of a Republican or a Democrat or an Atheist. If you're unsure of a "fact", then it's reasonable to qualify its quotation. IMO, many of the claims on this forum are unproven, some are disputed, and some are false.

[Winstonm]

More bad news for fans of the president:

 

Washington (CNN)

 

Former Trump campaign adviser Rick Gates is finalizing a plea deal with special counsel Robert Mueller's office, indicating he's poised to cooperate in the investigation, according to sources familiar with the case.

 

Gates has already spoken to Mueller's team about his case and has been in plea negotiations for about a month. He's had what criminal lawyers call a "Queen for a Day" interview, in which a defendant answers any questions from the prosecutors' team, including about his own case and other potential criminal activity he witnessed.

 

Gates' cooperation could be another building block for Mueller in a possible case against President Donald Trump or key members of his team.

 

Once a plea deal is in place, Gates would become the third known cooperator in Mueller's sprawling probe into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. It would also increase the pressure to cooperate on Gates' co-defendant Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, who has pleaded not guilty to Mueller's indictment and is preparing for a trial on alleged financial crimes unrelated to the campaign. Gates pleaded not guilty on October 30 alongside Manafort.

 

It is amazing. Mueller seems to be running a classic organized-crime-family investigation and he keeps finding roaches under each rock he overturns. Money laundering, anyone?

 

Tick-tock, tick-tock...

[Winstonm]

Unfortunately, we're not all blessed with the certainties of a Republican or a Democrat or an Atheist. If you're unsure of a "fact", then it's reasonable to qualify its quotation. IMO, many of the claims on this forum are unproven and some are false.

 

Sorry, but how can you be "unsure" of a fact?

The Justice Department sued Donald Trump, his father, Fred, and Trump Management in order to obtain a settlement in which Trump and his father would promise not to discriminate.

 

This is what a fact looks like. Are you claiming doubt this happened?

[nige1]

Sorry, but how can you be "unsure" of a fact?

"Fact" not "unsure" was in quotes. You can be unsure of what somebody else claims to be a "fact".

This is what a fact looks like. Are you claiming doubt this happened?

Straw man.

[barmar]

And in all the investigations about Benghazi, what was found? Nothing. Nada.

You don't know how to think like a conspiracy theorist. This just reinforces their belief in how widespread the conspiracy is, the investigators are part of it or the conspirators have enough power to suppress their findings.

 

In Trump's America, "facts" are practically irrelevant. Stephen Colbert's "truthiness" has moved from a comedy show to the White House.

[Winstonm]

"Fact" not "unsure" was in quotes. You can be unsure of what somebody else claims to be a "fact".

 

Straw man.

 

You can be ignorant of the facts but that does not alter the reality of a fact. Ignorance of facts can lead to erroneous conclusions. I doubt there is one among us who has not rowed that leaky boat. The only way to plug those holes is with solid information. Solid information is not found on the opinion isle or in the talk-show cooler. It comes from sources whose interest is presenting facts to the best of their ability, and the only way to do that is to multi-source.

 

In the same vein, denial of facts because of distaste for those particular facts is not the same as genuine ignorance.

[hrothgar]

I was just told that the following is mandatory reading

 

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

 

Key comment by Rosenstein: “there is no allegation in THIS indictment that any American was a knowing participant...”

[hrothgar]

And here's the plea agreement for the guy who was doing the money laundering

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4380535/2018-02-12-010-Pinedo-Plea-Agreement.pdf

[Winstonm]

I was just told that the following is mandatory reading

 

https://www.justice.gov/file/1035477/download

 

Key comment by Rosenstein: “there is no allegation in THIS indictment that any American was a knowing participant...”

 

Notice the indictment states acts occurred "....Defendents, along with others known and unknown to the grand jury knowingly and intentionally conspired to defraud the United states....".

 

I am wondering who the known others are?

[Winstonm]

And here's the plea agreement for the guy who was doing the money laundering

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4380535/2018-02-12-010-Pinedo-Plea-Agreement.pdf

3:15 p.m. Central time - CNN reporting he has pled guilty.