Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[hrothgar]

I support hrothgar in this. If you don't like the way the system works, work on changing the system! Whining and crying foul when your opponent effectively uses the current system against you is just infantile.

 

Please note: I am a firm believer that Washington works best when it respects institutional norms.

 

I find it regrettable that this has all been thrown by the wayside.

I find it hysterical that the "conservative" is the one making the strongest argument in favor of doing so...

 

drews the arch conservative doesn't even understand the basics about conservativism...

 

In all seriousness, have you read Burke or Oakshott?

 

Do comments like the following resonate with you at all "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society."?

[RedSpawn]

The problem I have with Trump is his character - and I can't grasp how any American can continue to support a president that attacks the free press, the FBI, the Justice Department, and anyone else who may disagree with him, who has neither the capacity or interest to understand his job, and who continually uses the WH as a business promotion tool.

 

You were not with me, but I said early on to my spouse that what would bring down Trump was Russia - and that is why I post on that subject. I was rabidly anti-Trump - not pro Clinton - during the election. Trump has done nothing to alter my views about him or his mission or abilities.

 

Where we are missing as a country is in the ability to say, my position may be flawed and I am willing to work a compromise to find a solution to our problems. Too often all we hear is "do it my way", and, unfortunately, this for the last 9 years has been the position of the right wing, especially the tea party branch. Perhaps this is the influence of religion on politics, that it is better to die right-wing (aka Christian right) than to compromise with a Democrat (aka the Antichrist).

 

The good news is that nothing Trump has done so far cannot be undone other than the SC nominations and the federal judges he has placed on the bench. But even that is slowing down, as I just read that 100 of his judicial nominees had just been rejected by the Republicans themselves.

 

Here'e hoping you will change your mind.

I said this before but if Trump were a money-laundering, election-colluding, pussy-grabbing Presidential candidate then perhaps his candidacy should have received a more thorough vetting from the media and Republican National Committee.

 

The Trump brand name has national presence since the 80's, so there was plenty of material to review and uncover. The Trump name also has a global presence with all of these golf resort real estate properties so I marvel at how our media didn't go for the jugular long ago.

 

I find it remarkable that, regardless of his character, an owner of casinos that filed for bankruptcy several times hasn't been heavily vetted for potential money laundering crimes. Oversight? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

But I will submit to the forum that the Year of 2017 was nothing more than the D.C. establishment throwing a temper tantrum and a kitchen sink at Trump for his victory of the federal election. These D.C. codgers play dirty politics and always have. Trump wasn't a serious problem until he won the federal election and flipped over the D.C. establishment power broker tables like Jesus flipped over the tables of the money changers.

 

Is Trump going to change D.C.? Hell no, because he is no Jesus. He is a part of the problem--the broken campaign finance system that no one will touch. But those who are already in power do not appreciate arrogant, mercurial newbies who were formerly political campaign donors demanding a seat at the POWER BROKER table in Washington D.C. by securing the position of President of the United States.

 

This move establishes a new power dynamic that requires a counterbalance. An ongoing grand jury investigation about foreign election collusion is one way to retard Trump's ability to bring change to D.C. -- whether good or bad.

 

As Winston said, Trump has a bevy of alarming character flaws, but that didn't stop his ascedency to power because the American people wanted change so bad they were willing to hire a brand marketing guru and snake oil salesman who promised it.

 

Should we blame voters who voted Trump or the campaign finance system and the party nominating committees that presented such horrid choices as Clinton versus Trump for a nation of 330,000,000?

 

Trump revealed how dirty and filthy the swamp is when he foolishly fired the FBI Director. He effectively became the enemy combatant of D.C. politics. We're still watching political kabuki theatre for a grave personnel decision he made in early 2017; 2018 promises to be more of the same drama.

[ldrews]

Please note: I am a firm believer that Washington works best when it respects institutional norms.

 

I find it regrettable that this has all been thrown by the wayside.

I find it hysterical that the "conservative" is the one making the strongest argument in favor of doing so...

 

drews the arch conservative doesn't even understand the basics about conservativism...

 

In all seriousness, have you read Burke or Oakshott?

 

Do comments like the following resonate with you at all "The central conservative truth is that it is culture, not politics, that determines the success of a society."?

 

Apparently you cannot read. As I have mentioned many times, I am not a conservative or a liberal, I am a limited government libertarian. But that exceeds that capacity of your two category mind. Oh well.

[hrothgar]

Apparently you cannot read. As I have mentioned many times, I am not a conservative or a liberal, I am a limited government libertarian. But that exceeds that capacity of your two category mind. Oh well.

 

 

Sorry, I do tend to lump all the contemptible little cults together in my mind.

 

It is a bad habit...

[ldrews]

Sorry, I do tend to lump all the contemptible little cults together in my mind.

 

It is a bad habit...

 

I rest my case.

[Winstonm]

I said this before but if Trump were a money-laundering, election-colluding, pussy-grabbing Presidential candidate then perhaps his candidacy should have received a more thorough vetting from the media and Republican National Committee.

 

....because the American people wanted change so bad they were willing to hire a brand marketing guru and snake oil salesman who promised it.

 

Should we blame voters who voted Trump or the campaign finance system and the party nominating committees that presented such horrid choices as Clinton versus Trump for a nation of 330,000,000?

 

How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.

 

I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.

 

Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.

[ldrews]

How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.

 

I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.

 

Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.

 

We should praise the voters for a much needed change in direction of our government. Under Trump's watch we have seen an improved economy, more jobs, less unemployment, higher consumer confidence, record stock market, reduced regulations, reduced taxes for 80% of the taxpayers. That is in just one year.

 

Thank you voters!

[cherdano]

I think rmnka missed the update. The current party line isn't "There is no proof of collusion at all, how ridiculous is that?", it is "What's wrong with collusion, trying to ease the tensions with Russia?"

[Winstonm]

I think rmnka missed the update. The current party line isn't "There is no proof of collusion at all, how ridiculous is that?", it is "What's wrong with collusion, trying to ease the tensions with Russia?"

 

It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"

 

NYT

TRUMP: [inaudible.] There was tremendous collusion on behalf of the Russians and the Democrats.

[Winstonm]

The reason Trump won the election is because he promised to restore white privilege.

[ldrews]

It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"

 

NYT

 

There does seem to be some significant evidence that the Steele Dossier, which was paid for by the DNC and Clinton Campaign, was dressed up and used as justification for the FISA warrants to surveil the Trump campaign staff and Trump himself. The FBI has already confirmed that they are unable to validate the claims in the dossier. Senator Lindsay Graham is calling for another special counsel to investigate this matter since both the DOJ and FBI may be complicit.

 

We live in interesting times!

[hrothgar]

It's hard to keep up. I think the latest is "The Grinch stole Christmas!"

 

I thought it was "Democrats agree that the Mueller will apologize for investigating me before Christmas"

 

Although, from what I understand "Why doesn't Ivanka give her daddy hand jobs any more" is another frequent refrain...

[RedSpawn]

How much do we know about others in the business world? Before an organization spends money on investigation, it expects an ROI in the form of readers/watchers/listeners. Once the business man is in office, interest rises.

 

I'm not so sure the vote was about change but was about how successfully the anti-Clinton propaganda machine worked over many years - it still re-hashes the 1990s. As was the Russia bot effect, the idea was to dirty Hillary to a degree where marginal Hillary voters had enough doubt to stay home while detractors were energized to vote.

 

Yes, we should blame the voters. No one held a gun to their head to force a Trump vote.

Ummm, but we have talked infinitum about the character issues behind HRC and how her Presidential campaign financing the debts of the DNC (the Presidential nominating committee) created conflicts of interests. The DNC could not act like an independent, objective body under this financial arrangement and became corrupted. The DNC effectively became an agent for the principal (HRC). Source: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774

 

**The Presidential debate questions that the agent (DNC) funneled in advance of the actual debate with Bernie Sanders to the principal (HRC campaign). Source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/17/brazile-admits-forwarded-debate-questions-to-clinton-camp.html

 

**The Wikileaks e-mails that revealed that the agent (DNC) wanted to paint Bernie in a negative light through his religious stance to benefit the principal (HRC campaign). This is what agents do. They support and act on behalf on those who bankroll them! Source: https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/top-dnc-staffer-apologizes-for-email-on-sanders-religion-226072

 

**The undisclosed, clandestine "ex parte" meeeting at the Phoenix tarmac between HRC's husband and his former subordinate AG Loretta Lynch prior to the Justice Department interviewing HRC about the e-mail server scandal. We are left with implausible and unlikely theories as to the thrust of this "bad optics" meeting given the high political stakes involved. Obstruction of justice is possible but not provable given the limited amount of evidence available. The Justice Department tries to find the whistleblower because of the fallout. Source: https://www.newsmax.com/tomfitton/comey-foia-phoenix/2017/12/11/id/831117/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/01/fbi-account-clinton-lynch-tarmac-meeting-released-by-watchdog-group.html

 

**The e-mail server debacle and HRC's refusal to own her own negligence in a timely, mature, direct, and transparent way.

 

How HRC and her husband treat and respond to the legal system and its process is a very big character issue because it's the same thing we are talking about with TRUMP! Do they respect the rule of law or act like they're above it?

 

HRC comes off as overly guarded and quite evasive and elusive when a mistake in judgment is involved. How will she act when she makes a mistake in judgment in the White House?

 

Are voters supposed to ignore these BIG character flaws and still vote Clinton?

[Winstonm]

 

 

Are voters supposed to ignore these BIG character flaws?

 

Who are you going to invite to dinner, the lady who smells bad or Hannibal Lecter?

[ldrews]

Who are you going to invite to dinner, the lady who smells bad or Hannibal Lecter?

 

Why would you invite either to dinner? But I might hire them to clean the restrooms.

[RedSpawn]

Who are you going to invite to dinner, the lady who smells bad or Hannibal Lecter?

This political story is not as simple as the choices you present. The road to character is not built overnight. It is built over many years and paved with plenty of good intentions. But the road to hell is also paved with plenty of good intentions.

 

Clinton versus Trump is not an easy choice if issues of Character are very important to you. Voters weren't given a fair ballot.

[barmar]

We should praise the voters for a much needed change in direction of our government. Under Trump's watch we have seen an improved economy, more jobs, less unemployment, higher consumer confidence, record stock market, reduced regulations, reduced taxes for 80% of the taxpayers. That is in just one year.

You keep repeating these points, despite the fact that they're all just continuations of trends that were already under way for most of Obama's term as well. How is that "a much needed change"?

 

Did you forget that Obama took office just after the 2008 financial crisis (caused in some part by GOP policies from the Bush years), and he got us out of it? Trump, on the other hand, took office after years of economic improvement, and his "achievement" is that he didn't do anything that slowed it down.

 

Trump's policies are clearly pro-business (at the expense of poor people, the economy, etc.) so it's hardly surprising that the stock market has reacted favorably. That mainly benefits the top 10% of the wealth spectrum who own most of the stocks.

[ldrews]

You keep repeating these points, despite the fact that they're all just continuations of trends that were already under way for most of Obama's term as well. How is that "a much needed change"?

 

Did you forget that Obama took office just after the 2008 financial crisis (caused in some part by GOP policies from the Bush years), and he got us out of it? Trump, on the other hand, took office after years of economic improvement, and his "achievement" is that he didn't do anything that slowed it down.

 

Trump's policies are clearly pro-business (at the expense of poor people, the economy, etc.) so it's hardly surprising that the stock market has reacted favorably. That mainly benefits the top 10% of the wealth spectrum who own most of the stocks.

 

If I read the charts correctly, the last 3 quarters GDP growth under Obama's direct influence were declining, finishing up at 1.2% in the 1st quarter of 2017. Immediately after Trump's inauguration the GDP growth rate jumped dramatically to 3.1% then 3.2%, and the 4th quarter looks to come in at 4+%. This is not a continuation pattern by any stretch. Downward trend followed by dramatic reversal after a key event smacks of causality.

 

I know you would like Trump to look bad or ineffective, but really, the data does not support you.

[ldrews]

You keep repeating these points, despite the fact that they're all just continuations of trends that were already under way for most of Obama's term as well. How is that "a much needed change"?

 

I am a libertarian. I strongly favor limited government. What we have is not limited government, and over my lifetime has become more and more intrusive. The push to reduce regulation, reduce staff in agencies, and reduce taxes are all actions that I support and believe to be much needed. The performance of the economy, while important in its own right, is a separate discussion.

[Winstonm]

"Radical movements in capitalist societies," as Milton Friedman patiently explained, "have typically been supported by a few wealthy individuals."

 

This explains the neo-libertarian.

[cherdano]

Thousands of jobs created by the US economy per month:

2014: 249

2015: 226

2016: 187

2017: 174

[Winstonm]

Thousands of jobs created by the US economy per month:

2014: 249

2015: 226

2016: 187

2017: 174

 

 

Surely your chart is upside down! Don't you realize who is in charge - the Great Pumpkin!?!

[RedSpawn]

You keep repeating these points, despite the fact that they're all just continuations of trends that were already under way for most of Obama's term as well. How is that "a much needed change"?

 

Did you forget that Obama took office just after the 2008 financial crisis (caused in some part by GOP policies from the Bush years), and he got us out of it? Trump, on the other hand, took office after years of economic improvement, and his "achievement" is that he didn't do anything that slowed it down....

Barmar,

I don't understand why you expect someone to see beyond their cognitive bias. This is a clear example of halo effect. There are negative attributes and biases heaped upon African-American men solely based on their melanin content. Before Obama even opened up his mouth, his loyalty to this country and citizenship was questioned.

 

Trump had at least two Russian wives and where were the fervent calls for him to substantiate his citizenship? As a general rule, you don't question the citizenship of rich white men. And Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person to assume the Office of the Presidency. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

 

We were on the precipice of a failing economy when President G.W. Bush left office. After the housing bubble collapse of late 2008, almost every American was walking on eggshells. The consumer confidence index was at an all-time low on 10/28/2008. Many of us wondered if we would still have a job to pay for these homes we couldn't afford. Everyone drank the Kool-Aid about deregulation of the derivatives capital market. Source http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/28/news/economy/consumer_confidence/

 

Under Obama, the unemployment rate went from a high of 7+% down to 4.6% when Trump ascended. That's nothing! Let's praise Trump when he moves unemployment from 4.6% to 4.1% and proclaim that Trump has generated the lowest unemployment in years. It's not a lie; it's just window dressing to support our team and whitewash how we even got to 4.1% in the 1st place. It colors history how we like to see it. Let Trump ride on Obama's sweat equity which is an American favorite pastime.

 

So, when the unemployment rate was a low 4.6%, why weren't we singing Obama's praises then? Because we had and still have a very divisive nation and Obama wasn't on our tribal team. His ACTUAL results didn't fit the narrative we wanted to peddle to the masses to support our agenda.

 

I am not suggesting that Obama is a hero. He is far from it. He doubled our national debt in 8 years just like President G.W. Bush. What I am suggesting, however is that Americans have very bad memories and tendencies of revisionist history to support their cognitive biases. Facts be damned.

 

EXAMPLE:

President Obama was labeled a Muslim even though he had attended Jeremiah Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ of Chicago for 20 years! Hmmm. You can't trust those Muslims and you can't trust those Black men. So an African-American man who is allegedly a Muslim is a DOUBLE WHAMMY.

 

I presume we are to believe that Obama was conducting reconnaissance over those 20 years in a Chicago Christian church? Or that one day he just woke up and decided to renounce decades of Christianity indoctrination and accept Islam into his life?

 

My point being, "Don't trust that black man (Obama) over there. He is not our brother and never has been. He is not loyal. His purported interests are not our interests. He is not an American citizen. In fact, he is a Muslim and an enemy combatant and a terrorist in disguise." NOTE: Kitchen sink is included with this cognitive bias.

 

We create our own reality and whitewash our memories to support our beliefs and fears. And as the corporate media complex peddles more and more disinformation, it is only going to get worse.

[Winstonm]

For those behind the times trying to blame Hillary and the Steele dossier, here is the actual reason for the start of the Russia-Trump investigation: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/30/us/politics/how-fbi-russia-investigation-began-george-papadopoulos.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — During a night of heavy drinking at an upscale London bar in May 2016, George Papadopoulos, a young foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign, made a startling revelation to Australia’s top diplomat in Britain: Russia had political dirt on Hillary Clinton.

 

About three weeks earlier, Mr. Papadopoulos had been told that Moscow had thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton, apparently stolen in an effort to try to damage her campaign.

 

Exactly how much Mr. Papadopoulos said that night at the Kensington Wine Rooms with the Australian, Alexander Downer, is unclear. But two months later, when leaked Democratic emails began appearing online, Australian officials passed the information about Mr. Papadopoulos to their American counterparts, according to four current and former American and foreign officials with direct knowledge of the Australians’ role.

 

The hacking and the revelation that a member of the Trump campaign may have had inside information about it were driving factors that led the F.B.I. to open an investigation in July 2016 into Russia’s attempts to disrupt the election and whether any of President Trump’s associates conspired.

[rmnka447]

Trump had at least two Russian wives and where were the fervent calls for him to substantiate his citizenship? As a general rule, you don't question the citizenship of rich white men. And Trump became the oldest and wealthiest person to assume the Office of the Presidency. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

 

Sorry, but "two Russian wives" is blatantly incorrect.

 

Ivanka (Zelnickova) Trump is a Czech and definitely not Russian at all. She hails from what is now the Czech Republic. It is the western 2/3 of what was Czechoslovakia and is located south of Germany, southeast of Poland, and north of Austria. Prior to Czechoslovakia, Bohemia and Moravia which form the bulk of the Czech Republic were both part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and never any part of Russia.

 

Melania (Knauss) Trump is Slovenian and again definitely not Russian at all. Slovenia is on the Balkan Peninsula and once was part of Yugoslavia. It is directly across Adriatic Sea from Italy. Likewise, prior to Yugoslavia, it was also part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

 

But, hey, those people with the funny names without vowels and sometimes with -ova at the end are all the same right? Um...No! His wives are definitely of the Slavic race, but they are from distinct non-Russian groups of Slavs (who BTW are very anti-Russian, if anything). The -ova at the end of woman's surnames is a linguistic addition that is common in many different Slavic languages to distinguish women from men.