Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[kenberg]

I forgot about that. I was BORN in a country boycotted by a few others, so getting a second passport would not help me enter one of those boycotting countries.

 

There are times that I feel I have led a very sheltered life. I was born in Minnesota, when I was 8 I visited relatives in Chicago, and when I was a teenager I often canoed on the St. Croix river, it separates Minnesota from Wisconsin. I think that when I was very young I was in eastern South Dakota on a hunting trio with my father. In my mid 20s I actually crossed an international border to go canoeing in norther Manitoba. Almost making me a world traveler by my standards, but I do not recall needing a passport!

 

Three passports seems a bit much but what do I know? But laundering money? I am pretty sure that's a no no. Even we stay at homes get that.

 

I think the following calm argument gives about as good a case as possible, and it's not all that good, for being cautious about just what does and does not follow from the indictments:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-mueller-indictments-arent-proof-of-collusion--just-bad-judgment/2017/11/01/d7227bc0-be6d-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html?utm_term=.c188824805a6

 

It's a decent article, but I think we are in a new ballgame here. The Astros recovered from a 3-2 deficit but I think the Trump presidency is in deep stuff.

[hrothgar]

For someone who travels frequently worldwide, there could be legitimate reasons for 3 passports. Some countries won't accept a passport if it shows the person having been to another country at odds with its views.

 

Still, 10 requests for passports in 10 years seems out of line.

 

I have two passports

 

1. The one that I used to go to Iran

 

2. The one I use to go into Israel

[Winstonm]

I have two passports

 

1. The one that I used to go to Iran

 

2. The one I use to go into Israel

 

That is what I was thinking - there may be other examples, as well.

[Zelandakh]

Three passports seems a bit much but what do I know? But laundering money? I am pretty sure that's a no no. Even we stay at homes get that.

And fraud too, right? I mean if any of us applied for credit and listed our net worth as (some scaled down version of) $30mil one month and $2.6mil the next, as Gates did, or $42mil (March), $136mil (May), $28mil (August) and $63mil (also August) as described by Manafort, we would surely be taken to court over it. Manafort's lawyer seemed to argue that the differences could be explained by fluctuating valuations of assets - over $100mil? Really?

Yeah, right!

 

And yet this seems to have been standard operating practice for these guys and would surely not even have attracted any attention at all but for the special investigation. Surely this is precisely the sort of activity that "draining the swamp" is supposed to stop?! Perhaps what has happened is that we lost a swamp and gained a sea of quicksand, into which the administration will slowly sink.

[jjbrr]

Can Mueller's special counsel prosecute AG Sessions? In normal situations the AG can shut down the investigation I assume, but Sessions has recused himself from anything related to Russia.

 

Mueller reports to Rosenstein and Rosenstein reports to Sessions; does that mean Rosenstein reports instead to Trump directly?

 

Trump can't directly fire Mueller; Rosenstein would have to do that. I realize the details are a little different, but this is how the Saturday Night Massacre transpired more or less, right?

[jjbrr]

Another question: is recusal some legally binding process? Can Sessions un-recuse himself if the investigation turns towards him?

[rmnka447]

I think this article would be helpful for you to read:

There you go again, Winnie. After a year or so ago blowing off a well written book by a liberal outlining how the left are assaulting free speech, you roll out this BS.

 

I'm hardly likely to be impressed by content from a left wing Breitbart equivalent site any more than you would accept any thing Breitbart puts out as true. This interview also involves a guy plugging his newly published "expose" book. So what he's peddling isn't any better than the loony conspiracy/end of democracy stuff peddled by both the far left and far right.

[RedSpawn]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/brazile-hillary-rigged-dnc-against-bernie/ar-AAumfqZ?OCID=ansmsnnews11

 

This right here from a defamed DNC chairwoman says it all.

 

Hillary and her campaign may not have committed a crime unlike Trump has allegedly, but at a minimum, this kind of behavior is deplorable, shady, and highly unethical.

 

It all boils down to character, and I want to hear someone make a bold attempt to sanitize this revelation.

 

The Democratic National Committee was owned lock, stock, and barrel by Hillary's campaign and we want to call this a fair political fight where the deck wasn't stacked against Bernie?

 

Is this our idea of democracy in action and where the people's vote (choice) matters?

 

Bernie was dished a very raw deal in 2016.

 

All things considered, it makes sense how 2016 was supposed to be Clinton's coronation to become the 1st Female President of the United States. From a financing standpoint, HRC's

campaign basically became the DNC's political action committee!

[rmnka447]

Now we have Democrat Donna Brazile in her new book giving credence to the claim that the Democratic nominating process was rigged.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/brazile-hillary-rigged-dnc-against-bernie/ar-AAumfqZ?ocid=spartandhp

 

Sad!! I guess it was much too important than to let the nominating process be democratically conducted and let the people decide.

[RedSpawn]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/business/economy/jerome-powell-federal-reserve-trump.html

 

And can the newly Trump appointed Federal Reserve chairman tell us what the EXTRA $3 TRILLION in assets sitting on the Federal Reserve's books since 2008 represents?

 

Was the housing bubble just a $700 billion deferred loan or a $3 trillion snafu?

 

http://i.investopedia.com/content/daily_blog/how_will_the_fed_shr/fredgraph.png

[RedSpawn]

Now we have Democrat Donna Brazile in her new book giving credence to the claim that the Democratic nominating process was rigged.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/brazile-hillary-rigged-dnc-against-bernie/ar-AAumfqZ?ocid=spartandhp

 

Sad!! I guess it was much too important than to let the nominating process be democratically conducted and let the people decide.

Yep.

 

According to politicians, We the people are a nuisance and an inconvenient hassle on the road to absolute power and glory.

 

In this Western political reality, MONEY, PROFIT and the BOTTOM LINE always trumps what the people want. (No pun intended).

[johnu]

Hillary and her campaign may not have committed a crime unlike Trump has allegedly, but at a minimum, this kind of behavior is deplorable, shady, and highly unethical.

 

Unbelievable that Hillary would resort to bare knuckles politics. I'm shocked - shocked I tell you that politicians try to get every legal advantage. We should impeach Hillary :rolleyes: Oh wait, she's a private citizen. :P

[johnu]

And can the newly Trump appointed Federal Reserve chairman tell us what the EXTRA $3 TRILLION in assets sitting on the Federal Reserve's books since 2008 represents?

 

Was the housing bubble just a $700 billion deferred loan or a $3 trillion snafu?

 

http://i.investopedia.com/content/daily_blog/how_will_the_fed_shr/fredgraph.png

 

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/bernanke20091008a.htm

 

I'm no economist, so this looks complicated to me. It's not easy like the secret Trump plan for Israel-Palestine peace, or the secret Trump plan to defeat ISIS, or the secret Trump plan to winning the war in Afganistan, or .....

[RedSpawn]

Unbelievable that Hillary would resort to bare knuckles politics. I'm shocked - shocked I tell you that politicians try to get every legal advantage. We should impeach Hillary :rolleyes: Oh wait, she's a private citizen. :P

No.

 

You are not going to side step the bad judgment in the timing of the Clinton's campaign financing of the DNC. It was very premature and reeks of a coronation!

 

This further bolsters how and why Bernie never stood a chance with the funneled debate questions for which he never even received a formal apology from the Clinton campaign.

 

If you can't beat your competitors, just finance the national committee responsible for nominations!

 

Is that where we are now?

 

Character is not contingent on the final result of your actions. It's what you do and how you behave when you think no one is looking.

 

And this . . . smells like swamp material and establishment chicanery that helped Trump get elected.

[cherdano]

Oh dear. Equating vox.com and Breitbart.

I guess when you are deep in your own ***** you don't realise how much you stink.

[jjbrr]

According to the indictment on Papadopoulos, the FBI interview that he admits he lied took place January 27.

 

made material false statements and material omissions during an interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI'.) that took place on January 27, 2017.

 

That is the same day Trump had dinner with Comey and asked for his loyalty.

[Winstonm]

There you go again, Winnie. After a year or so ago blowing off a well written book by a liberal outlining how the left are assaulting free speech, you roll out this BS.

 

I'm hardly likely to be impressed by content from a left wing Breitbart equivalent site any more than you would accept any thing Breitbart puts out as true. This interview also involves a guy plugging his newly published "expose" book. So what he's peddling isn't any better than the loony conspiracy/end of democracy stuff peddled by both the far left and far right.

 

I thought you might be open-minded enough to look at the interview because the interviewee was a right wing ex-radio host. This does not mean that he is like someone who escaped from a cult - he is still right wing and conservative, just no longer a radio host. But he is honest in his assessments. These are not the ideas of Vox but of a right winger. Why wouldn't you at least look at what he has to say?

 

Oddly, the fact that you won't look simply because he is not of your "tribe" is pretty much what he describes.

[Winstonm]

Now we have Democrat Donna Brazile in her new book giving credence to the claim that the Democratic nominating process was rigged.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/brazile-hillary-rigged-dnc-against-bernie/ar-AAumfqZ?ocid=spartandhp

 

Sad!! I guess it was much too important than to let the nominating process be democratically conducted and let the people decide.

 

If you think the Republican party would have rolled over and allowed an independent to win their nomination I think you are kidding yourself.

[Winstonm]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/business/economy/jerome-powell-federal-reserve-trump.html

 

And can the newly Trump appointed Federal Reserve chairman tell us what the EXTRA $3 TRILLION in assets sitting on the Federal Reserve's books since 2008 represents?

 

Was the housing bubble just a $700 billion deferred loan or a $3 trillion snafu?

 

http://i.investopedia.com/content/daily_blog/how_will_the_fed_shr/fredgraph.png

 

That extra $3 trillion (quantitative easing) is what kept you and me from reliving the Great Depression after the housing bubble burst and Lehman Brothers died.

[Winstonm]

Oh dear. Equating vox.com and Breitbart.

I guess when you are deep in your own ***** you don't realise how much you stink.

 

I am afraid being deep into it has become the norm for 24+ million Americans.

[kenberg]

And fraud too, right? I mean if any of us applied for credit and listed our net worth as (some scaled down version of) $30mil one month and $2.6mil the next, as Gates did, or $42mil (March), $136mil (May), $28mil (August) and $63mil (also August) as described by Manafort, we would surely be taken to court over it. Manafort's lawyer seemed to argue that the differences could be explained by fluctuating valuations of assets - over $100mil? Really?

Yeah, right!

 

And yet this seems to have been standard operating practice for these guys and would surely not even have attracted any attention at all but for the special investigation. Surely this is precisely the sort of activity that "draining the swamp" is supposed to stop?! Perhaps what has happened is that we lost a swamp and gained a sea of quicksand, into which the administration will slowly sink.

 

"And fraud too, right? I mean if any of us applied for credit and listed our net worth as (some scaled down version of) $30mil one month and $2.6mil the next, as Gates did, or $42mil (March), $136mil (May), $28mil (August) and $63mil (also August) as described by Manafort, we would surely be taken to court over it"

 

Yes. at a lunacy hearing to commit me to an asylum. Along with anyone who would believe it.

 

But yes, I understand your point.

 

Fluctuating assets? Legal shenanigans produce strange events. One of my favorites: A local guy was accused of being a drug kingpin and part of the evidence was huge unexplained amounts of cash in his possession. So he explained it. He obtained the cash robbing banks. If the fluctuating assets story doesn't fly maybe he could try the bank maneuver. Or there is always the "I won/lost it in a crap game".

 

 

We have to find a little dark humor in this or we will all go nuts.

[Al_U_Card]

That extra $3 trillion (quantitative easing) is what kept you and me from reliving the Great Depression after the housing bubble burst and Lehman Brothers died.

Inflating the next "bubble" maybe? Banks and the Market. Until the next bail-in, when you can say goodbye to a chunk of your assets without having to wait for your taxes to pay for the socialization of the financiers losses.

[andrei]

Now we have Democrat Donna Brazile in her new book giving credence to the claim that the Democratic nominating process was rigged.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/brazile-hillary-rigged-dnc-against-bernie/ar-AAumfqZ?ocid=spartandhp

 

Sad!! I guess it was much too important than to let the nominating process be democratically conducted and let the people decide.

 

Bernie is a cisgender straight white male, isn't he?

DNC have no use for them in their IT department (https://www.snopes.com/2017/11/02/dnc-white-males/), so why would they want one as a candidate?

[rmnka447]

If you think the Republican party would have rolled over and allowed an independent to win their nomination I think you are kidding yourself.

There are many, many people who would say that President Trump isn't truly a Republican. But against all odds, he ran and defeated many other Republican contenders in a field of 16. He just hit a populist chord that resonated with Republicans and won the nomination. It was messy process getting to a single candidate, but I don't hear anyone suggest it wasn't done democratically.

 

In a way, Bernie Sanders hit a similar chord with many progressives. But, of course, with a fixed result, he never stood a chance.

 

I just think it's delicious that the folks who scream about the end of democracy with Trump rigged the system.

 

Just think, if it had been a fair system, Bernie might have been selected and beaten Trump. "Hoisted by one's own petard" comes to mind.

[Winstonm]

There are many, many people who would say that President Trump isn't truly a Republican. But against all odds, he ran and defeated many other Republican contenders in a field of 16. He just hit a populist chord that resonated with Republicans and won the nomination. It was messy process getting to a single candidate, but I don't hear anyone suggest it wasn't done democratically.

 

In a way, Bernie Sanders hit a similar chord with many progressives. But, of course, with a fixed result, he never stood a chance.

 

I just think it's delicious that the folks who scream about the end of democracy with Trump rigged the system.

 

Just think, if it had been a fair system, Bernie might have been selected and beaten Trump. "Hoisted by one's own petard" comes to mind.

 

Regardless of your view, you can't deny that Trump ran as a Republican and Sanders ran as an independent.