Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[jjbrr]

I guess part of the problem is there are so many involved in this story that it's sort of difficult to predict where the investigation should start. Manafort and Flynn seem like slam dunks along with people like Carter Page, Felix Slater, Trump's lawyers, and others. I agree the case against Manafort and Gates must be a can of corn for the prosecutors, and I hope too they can flip someone to get some info.

 

edit: dumb typo

[Winstonm]

Given that the MO for FBI investigations is to start with the small fry at the bottom and work the way up it is almost surprising that we reached Manafort so quickly. The only real reason for that must be that the case against him and Gates is particularly clear and damning. The question that will most likely follow in the coming days and weeks is whether either of these two know something that can implicate one of the inner circle above them and, if they do, whether DT is prepared to push the PP button to make sure that no deal gets made. In the meantime it seems logical to discuss the scheme described in the indictment and the level of misinformation used to disguise it. I am guessing the one or other poster will have a couple of comments or questions on the matter.... Does anyone still think the matter is "fake news"?

 

This may turn out turn out to be a bigger deal than Manafort:

 

George Papadopoulos’s plea was unsealed on Monday – the same day Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, and a business associate, Rick Gates, were charged with money laundering, tax evasion, fraud and failing to register as agents of foreign interests.

 

But Papadopoulos is the first person to face criminal charges that cite interactions between Trump campaign associates and Russian intermediaries during the 2016 presidential campaign.

 

The Trump aide was told in April 2016 by an unnamed “professor” that Russia had “dirt” on Hillary Clinton in the form of “thousands of emails”. Wikileaks began to release thousands of Clinton’s hacked emails in March that year and further emails hacked from the Democratic National Committee in July, but it is unclear if these are the emails the professor was referring to.

 

Papadopoulos pleaded guilty on 5 October to one count of lying to FBI agents about the timing and nature of his interactions with “foreign nationals” who he thought had close connections to senior Russian government officials.

 

Papadopoulos was a foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign, which he joined in March 2016 after previously serving as an adviser for Ben Carson. The 30-year-old is a graduate of DePaul University in Chicago and was one of five foreign policy advisers announced by Trump in a March interview with the Washington Post. A second of the five, Carter Page, has also been under investigation for his ties to Russia.

 

PS: We can only hope that the Trump administration responds as well to its own crisis as it did and is still doing with the Puerto Rico hurricane crisis.

[Zelandakh]

This may turn out turn out to be a bigger deal than Manafort:

Right now that does appear to be the case, although Manafort is much more likely to have truly damning evidence to provide. The worst from Papadopoulos so far seems to be:

 

A “statement of the offense” document released by the special counsel’s office – which Papadopoulos agrees is accurate as part of his guilty plea – states that “on or about March 31, 2016,” Papadopoulos attended a national security meeting with Trump and other advisers, at which Papadopoulos stated that he “could help arrange a meeting between then-candidate Trump and President Putin”.

...which is fairly weak. Maybe more will turn up through this "professor" character or through the unnamed Russian woman - could that be the lawyer from the "orphans" meeting? Perhaps this is the connection that will lead upwards....time will tell.

[rmnka447]

Sorry for the late response but my computer is acting up.

 

As for your post, the problem is that there nothing to get upset about.

 

It was not a crime for the DNC/Clinton campaign to hire Fusion GPS to do opposition research.

It was not a crime for Fusion GPS to hire Steele, a British citizen and ex-MI-6 agent.

It was not illegal for Steele to pay Russians for information, if he did.

It was not illegal for Steele to put his findings in to a dossier of raw intelligence.

It was not illegal for Buzzfeed to publish the leaked dossier online.

 

The biggest problem Donald Trump has is that he continually acts like someone who is guilty and has something to hide about Russia.

If Fusion GPS accepted funds from the Russian intelligence connected firm and did not register as an agent of a foreign government, they are in big trouble.

 

The potential connection begs a lot of questions about them that should be investigated to assure no Russian interference with our democracy via the Democrats. What was the relationship between Fusion GPS and the Russians? Last fall, the analyst in his testimony before Congress indicated that it was common practice for the Russians to try to compromise people doing business with them in order to control them for future use. Did the Russians have any inkling that Clinton/DNC were looking for dirt on Trump with Fusion? If so, it presents a golden opportunity to feed disinformation to Clinton/DNC through Steele. How did Fusion find Steele? Could he be a Russian dupe?

 

As for your OPINION that Trump acts guilty, it has been distilled from your viewpoint that Trump shouldn't be President and must have colluded, so no big surprise. But it is an opinion and not fact at this point. IMO, President Trump just seems very exasperated by what he sees as spurious claims of collusion in an attempt to undermine his Presidency.

[hrothgar]

 

As for your OPINION that Trump acts guilty, it has been distilled from your viewpoint that Trump shouldn't be President and must have colluded, so no big surprise. But it is an opinion and not fact at this point. IMO, President Trump just seems very exasperated by what he sees as spurious claims of collusion in an attempt to undermine his Presidency.

 

You did see that George Papadopoulos has already plead out and was wearing a wire for the last 5 months or so...

[Winstonm]

If Fusion GPS accepted funds from the Russian intelligence connected firm and did not register as an agent of a foreign government, they are in big trouble.

 

The potential connection begs a lot of questions about them that should be investigated to assure no Russian interference with our democracy via the Democrats. What was the relationship between Fusion GPS and the Russians? Last fall, the analyst in his testimony before Congress indicated that it was common practice for the Russians to try to compromise people doing business with them in order to control them for future use. Did the Russians have any inkling that Clinton/DNC were looking for dirt on Trump with Fusion? If so, it presents a golden opportunity to feed disinformation to Clinton/DNC through Steele. How did Fusion find Steele? Could he be a Russian dupe?

 

As for your OPINION that Trump acts guilty, it has been distilled from your viewpoint that Trump shouldn't be President and must have colluded, so no big surprise. But it is an opinion and not fact at this point. IMO, President Trump just seems very exasperated by what he sees as spurious claims of collusion in an attempt to undermine his Presidency.

 

Now you are being silly. How did you go from "DNC/Clinton campaign paying for Fusion GPS" to "accepting funds from Russian intelligence"?

 

There is no reason to investigate irrational and idiotic claims made by Alex Jones or any other similar idiot.

 

Btw, I have never stated anywhere that Trump shouldn't be president. He won the election. If he worked with Russian intelligence, though, he should go to prison. Same as Hillary or anyone else should if they had done the same.

 

However, there has to be a reason to investigate. Trump has given ample reasons - he worked in Russia; his campaign members have lied repeatedly about Russian contacts; his campaign chairman and his national security adviser both received payments from Russia and/or Turkey; Trump himself fired the FBI director and stated he was thinking about the Russia investigation when he did so. Yada, yada, yadi...

 

Where is anything but speculation and innuendo about Clinton? Sean Hannity's claims do not validate a need for investigation of anything other than Sean Hannity's sources.

[Winstonm]

double post

[Winstonm]

Right now that does appear to be the case, although Manafort is much more likely to have truly damning evidence to provide. The worst from Papadopoulos so far seems to be:

 

 

...which is fairly weak. Maybe more will turn up through this "professor" character or through the unnamed Russian woman - could that be the lawyer from the "orphans" meeting? Perhaps this is the connection that will lead upwards....time will tell.

 

Well, there is this:

 

Papadopoulos continued trying to arrange a meeting between the campaign and the Russian government, and he emailed a “Senior Policy Advisor” on the Trump campaign to tell them he had “some interesting messages coming in from Moscow about a trip when the time is right.”

 

In one email, a “high-ranking campaign official” forwarded Papadopoulos’ email to another campaign official and noted the need to “communicate that [Trump] is not doing these trips” and that they should send “someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal.”

 

Didn't Carter Page take a trip to Russia around this time?

 

Maybe not the greatest source but I Googled this to find out when Page went to Russia and got this from the Washington Examiner:

 

President Trump's campaign team granted permission for then-adviser on national security issues Carter Page to visit Moscow last July where he delivered a speech criticizing U.S. sanctions against Russia.

 

Page on Tuesday confirmed that a representative of the Trump campaign approved the trip in June, telling him he could make the trip as a private citizen, not a representative of the campaign.

 

"I'm confirming that information," Page said, according to a report in USA Today. Page did not share the name of the individual who gave the green light.

 

So if you put it together, Papadopoulos wrote an e-mail to a campaign adviser who forwarded it to a "high level campaign official" who said the campaign should send someone low-level in the campaign "so as not to send a signal", and then Page was allowed to go to Russia the next month "provided he went as a private citizen and not a representative of the campaign".

 

A fairly unremarkable way of looking at this is that Page was sent incognito in order to hide the campaign's involvement with finding out what the Russians had to offer.

[jjbrr]

Trump campaign guys going to jail because of Hillary's emails is delicious irony.

[kenberg]

I have advocated not jumping to conclusions. At the risk of not taking my own advice, I think we have crossed a divide. Serious people are going to be sorting through options, none of them good.

 

I will be trying to understand this better as we go along, but one phrase that caught my eye was "money laundering". Like most people I have only a vague understanding of the details how this is actually done. But I understand it to be something done by crooks and so does everyone else. And the alleged scale is huge and international. Among other things, this means that a presidential pardon can be applied, if it can be done at all, only as the last presidential action before announcing resignation. At some point the public, almost all of it, abandons partisanship and says "No, you cannot do that". Congress will say the same, and so will the courts. So giving a presidential pardon here means he resigns or he is forced out by Congress. This will play out.

 

 

As Bette Davis said, "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy night".

[PassedOut]

If Papadopoulos really wore a wire, the fireworks will be massive. As to the Clinton stuff, if there is any "there" there, we can be sure the Mueller's investigation will uncover it. The Trump meltdown sure makes it look like he's frightened for himself.

[olegru]

The indictment document is also available online.

 

Thanks for your link. Interesting document.

Seems like 2 lobbyists done some job for Ukrainian Government (pro-Russian Ukraine Government 2010 - 2014) without disclosing it in USA and without paying taxes. Crime for sure.

The only problem ... there is Russian collusion?

[Winstonm]

If Papadopoulos really wore a wire, the fireworks will be massive. As to the Clinton stuff, if there is any "there" there, we can be sure the Mueller's investigation will uncover it. The Trump meltdown sure makes it look like he's frightened for himself.

 

Personally, I think Trump is more concerned about the money laundering charges than anything else.

[Winstonm]

Thanks for your link. Interesting document.

Seems like 2 lobbyists done some job for Ukrainian Government (pro-Russian Ukraine Government 2010 - 2014) without disclosing it in USA and without paying taxes. Crime for sure.

The only problem ... there is Russian collusion?

 

No flames yet but the smoke is growing blacker and the temperature is getting awfully high for this time of year.

 

Vanity Fair reports:

....just hours later, the Justice Department unsealed court records revealing that Trump campaign foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos had repeatedly contacted individuals tied to the Russian government in an attempt to broker a meeting with Kremlin officials, in what is the clearest evidence yet of efforts by a member of Trump’s team to coordinate with a foreign government to derail Hillary Clinton’s campaign.

[hrothgar]

 

Among other things, this means that a presidential pardon can be applied, if it can be done at all, only as the last presidential action before announcing resignation.

 

 

Sheriff Joe Arpaio did some pretty horrendous stuff and he was pardoned on a whim...

 

Not sure why you think Trump would hesitate to pardon Manafort if he thought that it with forestall testimony.

(Indeed many people argue that pardoning Arpaio was a signal that Trump would take care of his cronies)

[hrothgar]

Thanks for your link. Interesting document.

Seems like 2 lobbyists done some job for Ukrainian Government (pro-Russian Ukraine Government 2010 - 2014) without disclosing it in USA and without paying taxes. Crime for sure.

The only problem ... there is Russian collusion?

 

These things always start with indicting the small fry and then rolling things up.

 

With this said and done, I suspect that the meat of the investigation will involve systemic money laundering of Russian funds by the Trump organization.

 

The Russian collusion angle is pretty much an amuse bouche.

[andrei]

Thanks for your link. Interesting document.

Seems like 2 lobbyists done some job for Ukrainian Government (pro-Russian Ukraine Government 2010 - 2014) without disclosing it in USA and without paying taxes. Crime for sure.

The only problem ... there is Russian collusion?

 

Oleg, be careful what you’re saying on this board, they will check your IP address in a heartbeat.

Afterall, the name sounds suspicious ;)

[andrei]

2. I hold you in near complete contempt. FWIW, if I could push a magic button and it would kill you, I would do so in a heart beat. If I knew that it meant that you would suffer and long painful death than bankrupt your family, I'd do so even quicker... That's how much "value" I place on you and your loved ones.

 

LOL, this is priceless.

 

Question for the mods: what did Jon do to get himself banned from these forums? Did he actually killed somebody?

[rmnka447]

Now you are being silly. How did you go from "DNC/Clinton campaign paying for Fusion GPS" to "accepting funds from Russian intelligence"?

You're conflating two separate items.

 

Ultimately, the Clinton campaign/DNC provided the funding that was paid for the Trump dossier. If Fusion GPS had no previous Russian contact, that would be sleazy politics, at best. But isn't it still disingenuous that people claiming foul about an opponent's purported contacts/collusion with the Russians would be seeking to obtain information about what that same government has on that opponent?

 

However, Fusion GPS had previously conducted a misinformation campaign against the passage of the Magnitzsky Act that was funded from Russian sources. At the very least, this funding could have come from some of the oligarchs to protect their status in Russia. At the worst, it could be a Russian intelligence disinformation operation. In that sense, it is possible that Fusion was potentially "accepting funds from Russian intelligence". In any case, it's enough to investigate potential Russian interference through Fusion GPS.

 

I'm not claiming that there is definitely a connection, just that there's enough smoke that it should be investigated to assure we know the full extent of Russian interference in our democracy.

 

You've previously denied that the Democrats would ever have anything to do with the Russians. But you need to understand that the Russians will definitely use any opportunity to interfere with our democracy, no matter who becomes their dupe.

 

Btw, I have never stated anywhere that Trump shouldn't be president.

 

This is a laughable claim considering all the derogatory comments, slurs, and innuendo you've posted here about the President.

 

If he worked with Russian intelligence, though, he should go to prison. Same as Hillary or anyone else should if they had done the same.

 

We can agree on this, but it needs real evidence, not all the anonymous second or third party claims widely reported since the election.

 

However, there has to be a reason to investigate. Trump has given ample reasons - he worked in Russia; his campaign members have lied repeatedly about Russian contacts; his campaign chairman and his national security adviser both received payments from Russia and/or Turkey; Trump himself fired the FBI director and stated he was thinking about the Russia investigation when he did so. Yada, yada, yadi...

 

The usual overstatement of "facts", but there was enough smoke to justify the Special counsel to investigate. I'm waiting to see what they come up with before making any judgement.

 

Where is anything but speculation and innuendo about Clinton?

 

There's at least as much as substance as the initial claims of collusion by the Dems.

[Winstonm]

You're conflating two separate items.

 

Ultimately, the Clinton campaign/DNC provided the funding that was paid for the Trump dossier. If Fusion GPS had no previous Russian contact, that would be sleazy politics, at best. But isn't it still disingenuous that people claiming foul about an opponent's purported contacts/collusion with the Russians would be seeking to obtain information about what that same government has on that opponent?

 

However, Fusion GPS had previously conducted a misinformation campaign against the passage of the Magnitzsky Act that was funded from Russian sources. At the very least, this funding could have come from some of the oligarchs to protect their status in Russia. At the worst, it could be a Russian intelligence disinformation operation. In that sense, it is possible that Fusion was potentially "accepting funds from Russian intelligence". In any case, it's enough to investigate potential Russian interference through Fusion GPS.

 

I'm not claiming that there is definitely a connection, just that there's enough smoke that it should be investigated to assure we know the full extent of Russian interference in our democracy.

 

You've previously denied that the Democrats would ever have anything to do with the Russians. But you need to understand that the Russians will definitely use any opportunity to interfere with our democracy, no matter who becomes their dupe.

 

 

 

This is a laughable claim considering all the derogatory comments, slurs, and innuendo you've posted here about the President.

 

 

 

We can agree on this, but it needs real evidence, not all the anonymous second or third party claims widely reported since the election.

 

 

 

The usual overstatement of "facts", but there was enough smoke to justify the Special counsel to investigate. I'm waiting to see what they come up with before making any judgement.

 

 

 

There's at least as much as substance as the initial claims of collusion by the Dems.

 

Sorry...you seem a nice enough person but you are nuts with that last comment.

[jjbrr]

Gaslight

Obstruct

Project <-- rmnka, you are here.

[kenberg]

Thanks for your link. Interesting document.

Seems like 2 lobbyists done some job for Ukrainian Government (pro-Russian Ukraine Government 2010 - 2014) without disclosing it in USA and without paying taxes. Crime for sure.

The only problem ... there is Russian collusion?

 

Well, I have heard from a variety of commentators that there is not actually a crime called "collusion". If that is correct, then I suppose there will be no indictments for collusion. We seem to be well on our way toward substantial indictments, but none will be specifically for collusion. So I suppose while serving ten to life a guy can say "But I was never found guilty of collusion".

[PassedOut]

As for your OPINION that Trump acts guilty, it has been distilled from your viewpoint that Trump shouldn't be President and must have colluded, so no big surprise. But it is an opinion and not fact at this point.

I know that lots of folks agree with you, but you might have been misled about that. You might want to read some material that the fake news totally ignores: NEWS FROM THE REAL AMERICA, WHERE THE MAJORITY RULES

 

NEW YORK -- On Thursday, incest survivors praised Ivanka Trump, the daughter of failed former presidential candidate Donald Trump, after the legally embattled heiress tweeted, "#MeToo," before describing the sexual abuse she was subjected to while growing up in Trump Towers at the hands of her father.

 

"I'm tired of being daddy's girl, of the shame he makes me feel, of his viewing me and discussing me as a sexual object," she said.

 

Dylan Farrow, daughter of the rapist director Woody Allen, responded: "I believe you."

With the power of the web, its getting harder and harder to keep the truth from the real America.

B-)

[Zelandakh]

I know that lots of folks agree with you, but you might have been misled about that. You might want to read some material that the fake news totally ignores: NEWS FROM THE REAL AMERICA, WHERE THE MAJORITY RULES

I am not sure that posting links from satire sites is particularly helpful on BBF. There is enough genuine news around. Leave the made up news stories to the audiences of sheep that lap them up.

[olegru]

Well, I have heard from a variety of commentators that there is not actually a crime called "collusion". If that is correct, then I suppose there will be no indictments for collusion. We seem to be well on our way toward substantial indictments, but none will be specifically for collusion. So I suppose while serving ten to life a guy can say "But I was never found guilty of collusion".

 

Absence of word "collusion" is not a problem :) Problem is absence of any evidence of links (at least in that document) between:

1. activity of MANAFORT and GATES and Russia

2. activity of MANAFORT and GATES and Trump

 

Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions ( a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 201O to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Patty of Regions that fo1med in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia).

 

Yanukovych was pro-Russian (like probably every criminal-in-power in the world) but seems like he worked with lobbyists to solve his own problem, not Putin's problem.

 

Among other things, they lobbied multiple Members of Congress and their staffs about Ukraine sanctions, the validity of Ukraine elections, and the propriety of Yanukovych's imprisoning his presidential rival, Yulia Tymoshenko (who had served as Ukraine President prior to Yanukovych).

 

 

Also activities were running from 2008 to 2014. If USA government was influenced by uncovered illegal schema, Trump has nothing to do with it.