Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Zelandakh]

So you are taking the position that even if it made a difference in the number of lives saved/killed, that providing pussy is ludicrous/unacceptable?

Would you provide him with children too? How about LSD? Where do you think the line should be drawn?

[kenberg]

So you are taking the position that even if it made a difference in the number of lives saved/killed, that providing pussy is ludicrous/unacceptable?

 

It is my great hope that we never have to make this choice.

The conversation has become ridiculous. At some point we all just exit.

[Winstonm]

It is my great hope that we never have to make this choice.

The conversation has become ridiculous. At some point we all just exit.

 

This is exactly what the Trump supporters want. They want reasonable people to abandon public discourse.

[ldrews]

This is exactly what the Trump supporters want. They want reasonable people to abandon public discourse.

 

Winstonm, exactly how much chance is there that you would exit this public discourse?

[ldrews]

It is my great hope that we never have to make this choice.

The conversation has become ridiculous. At some point we all just exit.

 

I hope we never have to make such a choice, but the real world doesn't always cooperate.

 

I'm reminded of the stories of family businesses in New York City or other large cities, who are approached by individuals who lament that it would be terrible if something happened to their business, but that they offer protection against such things. What is the business owner to do? It is extremely difficult for police and the legal system to offer realistic protection against such extortion. Should the owner pay up and continue on with his business and support for his family? Should he take the risk of telling the individual to take a hike? Should he shut down his business, built up over years, and move to another location? Should he take the risk of involving the police (assuming the police are honest).

 

What would you do, realistically?

 

These are sometimes the choices faced by families in the real world. You do what you have to do to survive and prosper, even when you don't like it.

[Chas_P]

The conversation has become ridiculous. At some point we all just exit.

 

There are 6,904 posts in this thread. I have read all 6,904, Ken's post above being probably the most sensible. The bottom line is:

1. Donald J. Trump is the President of the United States until 2020 (maybe beyond).

2. He is not going to resign.

3. He is not going to be impeached.

4. Hillary Clinton is not going to be the POTUS

5. Yes, the Repubs are liars

6. So are the Dems

 

Perhaps you should start working on something else....maybe the crazy little fat kid in North Korea.

[Zelandakh]

5. Yes, the Repubs are liars

6. So are the Dems

Perhaps better expressed:-

5. The Dems lie regularly

6. The Reps lie somewhat more often

7. Trump lies all the time

 

Accepting the argument of "She tells some lies so it is no different if almost everything I say is untrue" is essentially what got you in this mess in the first place.

[RedSpawn]

Perhaps better expressed:-

5. The Dems lie regularly

6. The Reps lie somewhat more often

7. Trump lies all the time

 

Accepting the argument of "She tells some lies so it is no different if almost everything I say is untrue" is essentially what got you in this mess in the first place.

Do you honestly believe the shade of gray you made between 5 & 6?

 

Politicians are notorious liars on both sides of the aisle. I think to try to qualify one party as less of a liar than another is a useless intellectual exercise. They lie when it is politically expedient and when they perceive minimal fallout from doing so.

[Chas_P]

 

Politicians are notorious liars on both sides of the aisle.

 

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." And "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. If the...if he...if is means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement." come to mind.

[Winstonm]

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." And "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. If the...if he...if is means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement." come to mind.

 

How about "Your president is not a crook," or "The murder rate in our country is the highest it’s been in 47 years."

[kenberg]

"If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." And "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is. If the...if he...if is means is and never has been, that is not - that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement." come to mind.

 

"It depends on what the meaning of the word is is" is a fine illustration of the difference between legality and common sense. If I stand in front of you and say "I am not having sex with Monica" that certainly is true because I am standing it front of you and Monica is nowhere in sight. Exactly how far that sort of argument will stand up in a court of law, and I hope there are limits to this, is a matter for lawyers to debate. You and I know a lie when we hear one, regardless of just how it is constructed.

 

There were several aspects to this. You no doubt recal when .Madeleine Albright gave her statement of support, here is a review of it. https://partners.nyt...on-friends.html

 

The highest profile members of the administration, no doubt, will also be sorting out their feelings. In January, Clinton assured his Cabinet he was innocent, and Madeleine Albright, the secretary of state, stepped out onto the White House driveway to back him up.

 

"I believe the allegations are completely untrue," she said.

 

"I'll second that. Definitely," said William Daley, the commerce secretary.

 

"Third it," said Donna Shalala, the secretary of health and human services.

 

Ok, nobody expects all that much from Commerce or from HHS, and as I recall the Education guy was there too, but the Secretary od State? My reaction was that we are serious trouble if she really is that naive. Sort of like the current Cabinet telling Trump how great he is. Or Scaramucci saying how much he loves him. Good grief. If I ever started telling everyone how much I loved any boss I ever had he, or she, would probably fire me. Or at least strongly suggest that I shut up about it.

 

But still, there are differences in degree. We need to have some work done on our garage floor, and I have had someone out. Of course I will read the contract before I sign it, but my gut tells me the guy is a straight shooter. He and his son were out, I liked them both. A couple of years ago we needed our roof replaced. I could barely stand to deal with the salesmen I encountered. At one point, in exasperation, I said to one of them "I guess this is how things are done in the roofing industry, I will just have to deal with it". No doubt I was just having some bad luck, I eventually succeeded, but I see Trump as one of those roofing salesmen. He is a reality that we have to accept, but really I think it is reasonable to expect better, even from a politician.

 

Of course we are told that Trump is not a politician, he is a real estate guy. Enough said.

[barmar]

These are sometimes the choices faced by families in the real world. You do what you have to do to survive and prosper, even when you don't like it.

There's a huge difference between being coerced into choosing the lesser of two evils (or worse, having to make a "Sophie's Choice"), and voluntarily performing repugnant acts. It's not like Trump has his finger on the button and is saying "Bring me some pussy or I'll press this". You were suggesting that we proactively provide him with prostitutes to keep him happy. And you suggested that this would help him act more sanely, which I'm not sure I believe -- more likely, it will just distract him. What's the point of electing him if we don't think he can behave presidential on his own?

[mike777]

Sex worker is an honorable and legal profession in many countries. At the very least having a mistress is a common practice over history for Presidents, Kings and Czars. If our leader the Great and Wonderful Putin has one it seems small hands trump would be allowed one.

[cherdano]

I think now that the ldrews troll has shown his true colours, it is time to ignore him?

[Al_U_Card]

I think now that the ldrews troll has shown his true colours, it is time to ignore him?

When you just can't stand to have people express their opinions and perspectives because they don't coincide with yours.....end the discourse....of course! Pathetic. Welcome the divergent and opposing viewpoints. This is how we advance and correct our understanding. When you know it all, why bother to contribute other than to correct and indoctrinate? Higher education is lacking in tolerance and openness, apparently. But just blow off anyone that has a different P.O.V. because that would require some effort to look more deeply into the issues.

[cherdano]

When you just can't stand to have people express their opinions and perspectives because they don't coincide with yours.....end the discourse....of course! Pathetic. Welcome the divergent and opposing viewpoints. This is how we advance and correct our understanding. When you know it all, why bother to contribute other than to correct and indoctrinate? Higher education is lacking in tolerance and openness, apparently. But just blow off anyone that has a different P.O.V. because that would require some effort to look more deeply into the issues.

 

My god, get a ***** clue. Do you even know what I am referring to?

ldrews is clearly supporting Trump as president. He also thinks it is fine if Trump needs to grab pussies now and then in order to function effectively.

 

Saying he is a pathetic troll is the most generous possible interpretation. If ldrews truly stood behind what he is writing here, he would be a case for the FBI to deal with.

[Al_U_Card]

My god, get a ***** clue. Do you even know what I am referring to?

ldrews is clearly supporting Trump as president. He also thinks it is fine if Trump needs to grab pussies now and then in order to function effectively.

 

Saying he is a pathetic troll is the most generous possible interpretation. If ldrews truly stood behind what he is writing here, he would be a case for the FBI to deal with.

Nice response. Are you a responsible adult? Giving lectures in advanced math notwithstanding. If you engage and respond, at least have the decency to respect the individual that you have graced with your attention... A lot of people supported Trump. So what? Discussing the issues will at least eliminate the gratuitous name-calling and other puerile activity. Your interpretation only reflects on your inability to appreciate and debate ldrews.

[cherdano]

I give everyone the respect they deserve. In case of ldrews-the-forum-poster (which may be quite different from ldrews-the-person - that's part of the definition of a troll), that means no respect.

 

 

If you want to have an intellectually stimulating discussion about proving President Trump with enough Pussy to grab so that he can function effectively, then please go ahead - I just don't want to see any of it.

[Cyberyeti]

Nice response. Are you a responsible adult? Giving lectures in advanced math notwithstanding. If you engage and respond, at least have the decency to respect the individual that you have graced with your attention... A lot of people supported Trump. So what? Discussing the issues will at least eliminate the gratuitous name-calling and other puerile activity. Your interpretation only reflects on your inability to appreciate and debate ldrews.

 

Some individuals and beliefs are not worthy of respect, not all opinions/beliefs are equal.

 

Supporting Trump - not my thing but OK, a lot of people did, that's a matter of opinion

Suggesting grabbing pussy is fine - that stuff stopped being in any way acceptable quite a while ago

 

Do you have to respect me or my opinion if I say I should be free to marry 6 12 year olds at the same time ? hell no.

[cherdano]

A: I think all 30-40 year olds whose surname starts with "S" should be burning on crosses, they are subverting our society with their secret plan to topple world government.

B: I think it's time to start ignoring A.

Al_U_Card: OH MY GOD CAN WE NOT HAVE A CIVIL CONVERSATION BETWEEN OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS???

[Al_U_Card]

Apparently not.

 

Is ldrews yanking your chain(s)?

 

Kennedy screwed his interns. Did that make him unable to function as President?

 

A bad man able to do good or a good man able to do bad? Trump is just another shade a grey. Hold his feet to the fire and he might conform...or not.

[ldrews]

My god, get a ***** clue. Do you even know what I am referring to?

ldrews is clearly supporting Trump as president. He also thinks it is fine if Trump needs to grab pussies now and then in order to function effectively.

 

Saying he is a pathetic troll is the most generous possible interpretation. If ldrews truly stood behind what he is writing here, he would be a case for the FBI to deal with.

 

If Trump were actually motivated by pussy, and he would agree to resign immediately for a lifetime supply of pussy, is that an offer you would support?

[Zelandakh]

If you engage and respond, at least have the decency to respect the individual that you have graced with your attention.

Respect is earned and ldrews has not succeeded in earning any here. The lack of respect is therefore completely fitting and normal.

 

 

Is ldrews yanking your chain(s)?

This is rather the point and part of the reason why troll is the correct term for him. People who go on the internet only to yank others' chains rather than post in a sensible, amusing or intelligent way are generally in the category of troll. Most moderated forums weed out obvious trolls and ban them so he is fortunate that the policy here is rather more lax.

[Winstonm]

The Magnitsky Act explained in testimony.

 

There are approximately ten thousand officials in Russia working for Putin who are given instructions to kill, torture, kidnap, extort money from people, and seize their property. Before the Magnitsky Act, Putin could guarantee them impunity and this system of illegal wealth accumulation worked smoothly. However, after the passage of the Magnitsky Act, Putin’s guarantee disappeared. The Magnitsky Act created real consequences outside of Russia and this created a real problem for Putin and his system of kleptocracy.

[y66]

Nate Silver's McCain Punditry Mini-Rant:

 

Part of why McCain does what he does: There’s a generational and philosophical divide in how he’s covered by the press.

 

Among younger and less traditional reporters on Twitter — especially on the left but by no means exclusively so — a lot of people are pointing out McCain’s inconsistency in scolding McConnell’s process but nevertheless voting for the motion to proceed.

 

On CNN, however, the commentary about McCain’s speech was glowing. And the commentary has also been very warm in Twitter comments we’ve seen from older reporters at the major news networks and at newspapers like The Washington Post.

 

Longtime readers of FiveThirtyEight know that I have a lot of beefs with the establishment media. Moments like these, where they elevate style over substance, are a big part of why.

Silver's generational divide observation is interesting. We saw this here in differences of opinion about racism in America by two highly regarded WC posters.

 

Trump is the prototypical con man who doesn't have any illusions and who seems to understand what Chicago Trib art critic Chris Jones calls the new radical democratization of culture aka the exuberant expression of self which, I think, is an unfathomable concept for 99 percent of people born before 1945 and maybe even before 1975.

 

McCain, about whom David Foster Wallace wrote the following, seems to have spent the last 20+ years conning himself and anyone else who would listen.

 

"I'm going to tell you something. I may have said some things here today that maybe you don't agree with, and I might have said some things you hopefully agree with. But I will always. Tell you. The truth." This is McCain's closer, his last big reverb on the six-string as it were. And the frenzied standing-O it always gets from his audience is something to see. But you have to wonder. Why do these crowds from Detroit to Charleston cheer so wildly at a simple promise not to lie?

 

So who wouldn't yawn and turn away, trade apathy and cynicism for the hurt of getting treated with contempt? And who wouldn't fall all over themselves for a top politician who actually seemed to talk to you like you were a person, an intelligent adult worthy of respect? A politician who all of a sudden out of nowhere comes on TV as this total long-shot candidate and says that Washington is paralyzed, that everybody there's been bought off, and that the only way to really "return government to the people" as all the other candidates claim they want to do is to outlaw huge unreported political contributions from corporations and lobbies and PACs...all of which are obvious truths that everybody knows but no politician anywhere's had the stones to say. Who wouldn't cheer, hearing stuff like this, especially from a guy we know chose to sit in a dark box for four years instead of violate a Code? Even in AD 2000, who among us is so cynical that he doesn't have some good old corny American hope way down deep in his heart, lying dormant like a spinster's ardor, not dead but just waiting for the right guy to give it to?

This is the guy who picked Sarah Palin as his running mate.