Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Zelandakh]

Should I believe...

Believe the evidence from a skeptical but open basis, keeping outside prejudices out of it as much as possible. We do not have enough data available at present to say categorically what has happened. We do (imho) have enough to take the allegations regarding Russia and about interfering in an investigation seriously.

[Zelandakh]

Have just read about the shooting. One wonders if it might re-open the debate about gun controls for semi-automatic weapons in America. One can but hope that sense will prevail but more likely in the end money will do the talking.

[jogs]

Have just read about the shooting. One wonders if it might re-open the debate about gun controls for semi-automatic weapons in America. One can but hope that sense will prevail but more likely in the end money will do the talking.

 

There are more guns in America than there are people. Gun controls, that ship has sailed long ago. Strict gun laws only stop law abiding citizens from purchasing guns.

[awm]

There are more guns in America than there are people. Gun controls, that ship has sailed long ago. Strict gun laws only stop law abiding citizens from purchasing guns.

 

Conservatives like to repeat this, but the division of people into "law abiding citizens" and "hardened criminals" is pretty unrealistic. Many crimes are committed by people who get drunk and cause mayhem, or disaffected loners, or spur of the moment in anger, or a domestic abuse situation, etc. Gun controls may prevent any of these, or at least make them less deadly. There are also many accidents involving guns (a non-trivial number of Americans are shot by toddlers each year)!

 

In the case of hardened criminals (gang members or whatever) yes they probably get guns anyway. But in some cases it may become easier to prosecute for gun possession or to follow the illegal gun purchases to find the criminals. The cases of private citizens stopping crimes with guns are pretty sparse, and especially if untrained (not former cops or military or whatever) these people tend to be more dangerous to innocent bystanders than to hardened criminals.

[barmar]

Have just read about the shooting. One wonders if it might re-open the debate about gun controls for semi-automatic weapons in America. One can but hope that sense will prevail but more likely in the end money will do the talking.

Every time there's a noteworthy shooting it "reopens the debate". They talk about it for a few days, then something else catches their attention and it gets forgotten. I think the only time one of these shooting actually resulted in significant legislation was the Brady Bill, almost 25 years ago. But nothing much happened after Columbine, Virginia Tech, Gabrielle Giffords, Sandy Hook, Pulse Nightclub, etc.

 

But maybe the comparison with Brady is reason for optimism. He was on the staff of a Republican administration, and Scalese is a Republican Congressman, so maybe conservatives might take some action when the gun violence happens to them.

[ldrews]

It is very tragic what happened to Scalise. This is a clear reminder how intolerant, divisive, and incendiary rhetoric can incite dangerous if not lethal behavior.

 

Amen! But now that the precedent has been set I expect some right-wing nut to retaliate.

 

If that happens, we may have just witnessed the beginning of the 2nd US Civil War, where logic and reason become subservient to AK-47s.

[Winstonm]

Amen! But now that the precedent has been set I expect some right-wing nut to retaliate.

 

If that happens, we may have just witnessed the beginning of the 2nd US Civil War, where logic and reason become subservient to AK-47s.

 

The preceding announcement was brought to you by the Alex Jones fan club.

 

Meanwhile, it is good to remember this action of Donald Trump.

[PassedOut]

The anti-Trump contingent seems to have drawn first blood (Scalise). This will get interesting.

That "shooting" was fake from beginning to end. Trained actors played every part, no one was killed, and no one was injured. Trump got the distraction he wanted, and got to tarnish Bernie Sanders at the same time. Don't be so gullible!

<_<

[awm]

Amen! But now that the precedent has been set I expect some right-wing nut to retaliate.

 

If that happens, we may have just witnessed the beginning of the 2nd US Civil War, where logic and reason become subservient to AK-47s.

 

If you're blaming the left for this, I assume you accept that the right is to blame for congresswoman Giffords being shot a few years back? And the attack on an IRS building in the same time frame? And the many murders of doctors who provide abortions?

 

There are crazies of all political ideologies. But only one side advocates that the crazies be allowed to buy guns. And only one side claims that the purpose of the 2nd amendment is so people can "overthrow a tyrannical government" (basically a license to kill government officials they dislike).

[ldrews]

That "shooting" was fake from beginning to end. Trained actors played every part, no one was killed, and no one was injured. Trump got the distraction he wanted, and got to tarnish Bernie Sanders at the same time. Don't be so gullible!

<_<

 

I guess I am gullible! My understanding is that Scalise is still in critical condition from a gunshot would. Do you have other information?

[ldrews]

If you're blaming the left for this, I assume you accept that the right is to blame for congresswoman Giffords being shot a few years back? And the attack on an IRS building in the same time frame? And the many murders of doctors who provide abortions?

 

There are crazies of all political ideologies. But only one side advocates that the crazies be allowed to buy guns. And only one side claims that the purpose of the 2nd amendment is so people can "overthrow a tyrannical government" (basically a license to kill government officials they dislike).

 

My understanding is that the shooter is a rabid anti-trumper and Bernie Sanders supporter. Is this left?

 

The reality of the US is that many citizens own guns. Gun ownership is a basic right enshrined in the Constitution, no advocacy is required. Probably the majority of the gun owners are conservative/right wing. Many of them are paranoid with respect to the liberal left. Some of them are crazy. So I would not be surprised if one of them takes it upon himself/herself to retaliate.

 

The bulk of the current inflammatory talk/action has been provided by the liberal/left and the mainstream media. A recent example is Kathy Griffin's severed head of Donald Trump. The first blood incident was the recent shooting of Scalise. The perpetrator allegedly asked bystanders if the group of baseball players were Republicans or Democrats before opening fire. It would be understandable if the Republicans/right interpreted this as a politically motivated crime, a direct assault on them. Given the emotional tenor of the times, I would be surprised if retaliation did not occur. If it doesn't, that would simply indicate that the right-wing groups are not as crazy as the left-wing groups at the moment.

[Winstonm]

My understanding is that the shooter is a rabid anti-trumper and Bernie Sanders supporter. Is this left?

 

The reality of the US is that many citizens own guns. Gun ownership is a basic right enshrined in the Constitution, no advocacy is required. Probably the majority of the gun owners are conservative/right wing. Many of them are paranoid with respect to the liberal left. Some of them are crazy. So I would not be surprised if one of them takes it upon himself/herself to retaliate.

 

The bulk of the current inflammatory talk/action has been provided by the liberal/left and the mainstream media. A recent example is Kathy Griffin's severed head of Donald Trump. The first blood incident was the recent shooting of Scalise. The perpetrator allegedly asked bystanders if the group of baseball players were Republicans or Democrats before opening fire. It would be understandable if the Republicans/right interpreted this as a politically motivated crime, a direct assault on them. Given the emotional tenor of the times, I would be surprised if retaliation did not occur. If it doesn't, that would simply indicate that the right-wing groups are not as crazy as the left-wing groups at the moment.

 

So I guess Dylan Roof's alt right politics don't matter because minority victims don't count?

 

In June 2015, Roof, then 21, a high school dropout and avowed white supremacist, interrupted an evening Bible study at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, shooting nine black parishioners in cold blood.

 

From the fake news site, WaPo: B-) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/06/15/what-do-many-mass-shooters-have-in-common-a-history-of-domestic-violence/?utm_term=.b709e2df88da (emphasis added)

 

There is one thing, though, that an alarming number of the recent mass shooters in the United States share: A history of aggression and violence toward women. Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people in the horrific massacre at Virginia Tech in 2007, had been previously investigated for stalking two female classmates. Elliot Rodger, who killed six and wounded 13 in Isla Vista, Calif., in 2014, was obsessed with perceived rejection by women, and not long before the shooting had thrown coffee on two women at a bus stop because they failed to smile at him. Ismaaiyl Brinsley, who murdered two police officers in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 2015, shot his ex-girlfriend in the stomach just hours earlier. Cedric Ford, who shot 17 people last year at the Newton, Kan., plant where he worked, killing three, had been accused of abusing his ex-girlfriend and had been served with a restraining order not long before the shooting. Robert Dear, who shot and killed three people at a Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, in 2015, had a history of domestic violence and harassment toward women. And Omar Mateen, who murdered 49 people at Pulse nightclub in Orlando, physically abused his wife for years, beating her because she had not finished the laundry or a similar offense.

[PassedOut]

I guess I am gullible! My understanding is that Scalise is still in critical condition from a gunshot would.

That's what they want you and the rest of us to believe. Don't fall for it.

:huh:

[RedSpawn]

Amen! But now that the precedent has been set I expect some right-wing nut to retaliate.

 

If that happens, we may have just witnessed the beginning of the 2nd US Civil War, where logic and reason become subservient to AK-47s.

I have to throw in this "essay" about extreme and extremist politic rhetoric.

 

What is the lure of extremist rhetoric in democratic controversy? After all, most citizens are not extremists. Part of the lure lies in the fact that it is easier to believe passionately in a value or cause without regard to subtlety, reasoned argument, probabilistic evidence, and vigorously tested scientific theory or fact. Expressions of single-minded visions for solving problems and changing society can make complexity and uncertainty, frustration and regret, all appear to evaporate. Another part of the lure is that having comrades-in-argument is comforting.

 

If extremist rhetoric has popular appeal, at least on its face, what could be wrong with the overwhelming prevalence of extremist rhetoric in democratic discourse? After all, extremists have a constitutional right to speak in extremist language as long as they are not directly threatening other people. Our answer to the question of what’s wrong with extremist rhetoric is essential to understanding both why its prevalence endangers the public interest that democracy should serve and why so many democratic citizens, even many initially drawn to some forms of extremist rhetoric, find it increasingly troubling over time.

 

Going as far back in political philosophy as Aristotle, political rhetoric has been employed in the service of reasonable persuasion concerning questions of justice or the public good. Aristotle maintained that the “proper task” of rhetoric is to drive home the logic, the truth, and the evidence of an argument. Reason should frame a good politician’s goal to persuade. The opposite of a sound democratic argument is demagogy: manipulation and deception in order to divide and conquer the democratic populace. Extremist rhetoric is a common tactic of demagogy: it divides in order to conquer.

 

Mobilizing one’s base and arousing people’s passions are natural parts of democratic politics. Aristotle recognized that rhetoric at its best appeals concomitantly to our passions as well as to our character and our reason. The problem with extremist rhetoric is that it mobilizes the base by spurning reason and playing exclusively to the antagonistic passions of disrespect and degradation of argumentative adversaries. Extremist rhetoric insidiously undermines the democratic promise of mobilizing citizens on the basis of some reasonable understanding of their interest and the public interest.

 

Extreme rhetoric has the same effect as extremist rhetoric because it expresses itself in the same way. It is extreme simply for the sake of gaining attention and mobilizing the base. While we may not worry that extreme rhetoric reflects a dangerous underlying ideology, we should be concerned that it is unnecessarily disrespectful of argumentative adversaries.

 

Unlike extremist rhetoric, extreme rhetoric is almost always either deceptive or worse: It blatantly disregards and devalues truth-seeking understandings upon which citizens in a democracy may make informed judgments. It also undermines a basic value of representative politics. When politicians use extreme rhetoric to mobilize their base in cavalier disregard of the vast majority, they strip the moderate middle of a voice in governance.

 

The problem for representative democracy, therefore, is that many people who are not ideological zealots manipulatively use extreme rhetoric for their own mutually disrespectful political ends–at the same time as zealots of all ideological stripes insidiously subvert the compromising spirit of democracy through their use of extremist rhetoric. Since so much of representative democracy depends on politicians’ wooing the votes and support of citizens to govern in our names, what politicians say matters mightily. (bold mine)

 

Good stuff! See https://president.upenn.edu/meet-president/extremist-rhetoric/ for more.

[diana_eva]

I have to throw in this "essay" about extreme and extremist politic rhetoric.

 

 

 

Good stuff! See https://president.up...emist-rhetoric/ for more.

 

What's funny to me is that you quote this stuff but also throw in all sorts of conspiracy theories. If we don't know what is fact, or what is ""truth" and what not, it's useless to apply a logic like "trust the facts"

[RedSpawn]

What's funny to me is that you quote this stuff but also throw in all sorts of conspiracy theories. If we don't know what is fact, or what is ""truth" and what not, it's useless to apply a logic like "trust the facts"

You do realize I didn't say the Scalise shooting was fake. Another user suggested that notion.

 

I did say, however, that we should be alarmed by the DHS' alleged hack of the Georgia and Indiana voting systems.

 

That is not a conspiracy theory. It is a clear violation of federal law at the time of the trespasses.

 

We should be alarmed if Russia or DHS engages in such unauthorized activity.

[RedSpawn]

Does anyone understand what's happening in the Gulf? Why Qatar? Why isn't anyone interfering - should they?

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/76754-analyse-this/page__pid__925174#entry925174

 

Mr. Ace and others are starting a new string to more than adequately address this concern.

 

It is all about the US monetary hegemony.

 

It's a good read and directly refutes a lot of "fake news" or heavily biased news from the mainstream media outlets.

 

Be prepared, Mr. Ace is offering the red pill so you can see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-avoot2jSrKY/UT1Hq2V5MbI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/3J1jV7xdHFA/s1600/MatrixBluePillRedPill.jpg

[kenberg]

I have nothing useful to say about the shooting, or at least nothing original, but I found the interview below very moving.

 

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/rivals-baseball-field-congressmen-share-solidarity-shooting/

[PassedOut]

You do realize I didn't say the Scalise shooting was fake. Another user suggested that notion.

 

I did say, however, that we should be alarmed by the DHS' alleged hack of the Georgia and Indiana voting systems.

 

That is not a conspiracy theory. It is a clear violation of federal law at the time of the trespasses.

 

We should be alarmed if Russia or DHS engages in such unauthorized activity.

You can be sure that if the deep state did not want Trump to be the president, Trump would not be the president today. The deep state could easily have made Clinton the president, and no one would have questioned it. What we're seeing now with the fake shooting is a step on the way to justifying greater and greater control by the government, and the suppression of all opposition to that control.

B-)

[RedSpawn]

Have just read about the shooting. One wonders if it might re-open the debate about gun controls for semi-automatic weapons in America. One can but hope that sense will prevail but more likely in the end money will do the talking.

Never underestimate the power of the US dollar and the petrodollar. The common denominator of most U.S. policy decisions.

[andrei]

If you're blaming the left for this, I assume you accept that the right is to blame for congresswoman Giffords being shot a few years back?

 

You should educate yourself a little bit here.

You might have read the recent NYT editorial, but you have missed the correction. It came a few hours after.

[RedSpawn]

You can be sure that if the deep state did not want Trump to be the president, Trump would not be the president today. The deep state could easily have made Clinton the president, and no one would have questioned it. What we're seeing now with the fake shooting is a step on the way to justifying greater and greater control by the government, and the suppression of all opposition to that control.

B-)

What's more disturbing is the illusion of choice in our body politic. There are 330,000,000 people in the United States. With that much opportunity and diversity and richness of experience, we can distill our Presidential choices to a bankrupt-prone Reality TV Real Estate mogul (whose tax forms we have yet to see) and another 4 years of Billary in the White House (which could be described as another 4 years of Bill Clinton in office).

 

That is an illusion of choice. There is too much choreography between political dynasties, corporate owned media, special interests, and government institutions (including intelligence agencies) that poisons the nomination process and creates seemingly insurmountable barriers to entry.

 

The outcomes are too forced and repetitive. We need campaign finance reform because the Office of the President of the United House is not for sale nor should it be exclusively reserved for rich or politically connected candidates or for Ivy League alumni. We need a pensive, flexible, fluid, and fearless leader not an establishment puppet.

 

If we can create competitive world-class marketplaces in our economic sector, then we should apply that same spirit to our elections of the highest office of our public sector.

 

When it comes to voting for our President, we the people deserve the freedom of choice, not the illusion of choice.

[Winstonm]

Here is the Trump version of "populism" in action: (emphasis added) From Politico:

 

The DOJ said Friday that it will switch sides in a Supreme Court case, dropping its previous support for workers to throw its weight behind management.

 

The case, NLRB v. Murphy Oil, addresses whether an employment contract that requires the employee to waive his or her right to bring a class-action lawsuit against the employer violates the National Labor Relations Act

 

and

 

Trump's drug price 'remedy' expected to be industry friendly

 

How hard is it to see that Trump is only concerned with image and perception - he played the part of a populist but he clearly is not.

[RedSpawn]

I recognize that I over-simplify. But I am actually trying to make a point. Give up on Sessions. Give up on Trump. They won't be changing. I see the issue differently. Right now we have a mess. Democracy is a mess by design, but right now is, I think, much worse than usual. I was watching Brooks/Shields on PBS last night and one of them approximately quoted someone else (yes, this is a quote of a quote, with all the risks) saying something like "We have reached a point where if a politician throws a reporter to the ground and punches him, people want to know which party the politician belongs to before they decide how they feel about this". I think that's a pretty accurate assessment of where we are. We must try to find things that we can cooperate on. This could come from seeing the benefit to everyone of good programs. With my Norwegian genes I could resent Swedes. I don't, but suppose I did. I could still agree that it is best if everyone, Swedes, Norwegians, and everyone else, receives a good education. My life would not get better if we all had to support a large number of incarcerated Swedes. So forget whether I am or am not a Swedophobe, and get going on education and opportunity for everyone. If we could focus on that, I believe progress could be made.

 

A recent PBS Newshour had a segment about testosterone levels and how it correlates with success as a CEO. Since CEOs are not always willing to give samples, they also discussed how facial structure correlates with testosterone levels. And so we get to facial structure as a predictor of success in the corporate structure, particularly the ratio of width to height of the face. I suppose there is some science to this and I suppose it will be used, but it made me a bit ill. I am not sure I see how this differs from racial correlations. I never had any interest in being a CEO. Maybe this means I have low testosterone. Or maybe it just didn't interest me. We are putting people into labeled boxes, and I don't like it. I am not planning on measuring the width and height of my face.

 

I repeat, I admit I am over-simplifying. But I also repeat that I think that there is something to what I am saying.

 

I am fine with having equal sentences for powdered and crack cocaine, and for meth and heroin and opioids and so on. I favor helping the individual user, I favor quite stiff penalties for the dealers. I don't need to know a thing about the race, culture, whatever of the people involved for me to hold this view.

 

Ken,

 

I missed this earlier, but there is definitely something to what you are saying. You are right.

 

Unfortunately, we cater to our most base instinct when tragedy occurs. The Scalise shooting was a reminder of the dangers of incendiary rhetoric and called for national unity. As a nation, we must remember united we stand, divided we fall.

 

Despite the tragedy, however, folks on both sides of the aisle fixated on the suspect's party affiliation to explain his heinous behavior. This is a tribal mentality and resorts to divisive tactics. As long as the tribal mentality within us remains unexamined, we unwittingly subject others to our tribal laws. We must transcend these laws for our democracy to function optimally. The shooting is heinous regardless of political ideology. When united, we know this act is a function of displaced aggression and self-hate; it's not a function of (D) or ® or (I). We must look past these convenient labels and our tribal associations to get to the root cause of human behavior.

 

Labels give us permission to look beyond one's humanity and as you said, place people in a box, and move on. Labels gives us license to ignore peoples' narratives and demonize them and their accomplices. Labels give us ammunition to reach conclusions about matters without collecting or analyzing evidence or making logical appeals such as deductive or inductive reasoning. They are mental short-cuts we take to avoid the hard work of understanding the human mind.

 

You said you favor helping the individual drug user and stiffly penalizing the drug dealer. That's a reasonable and noble societal goal, but why assume that is our legal and political institution's objective? ;)

[diana_eva]

Trending on FB among Trump supporters:

 

 

Do you know someone suffering from Trump Un-logical Resistance Disorder (TURD)? Know the signs, spot the symptoms, and save a life.

TURD is a pattern of pathologically psychotic behavior, first observed in the late hours of November 8th, 2016 and increasing in severity with passing time.

Sufferers of TURD often exhibit pronounced cognitive dissonance, sudden bouts of rage, rioting, uncontrollable crying, “unfriending” on Facebook, and especially a tendency to believe ALL propaganda provided to them by progressive media outlets controlled by the elite, globalist establishment ruling class.

TURD is triggered by the election of Donald Trump as President of the United States of America. For many, both in America and worldwide, this was a shocking and unexpected outcome; their preferred news sources having failed to inform them that the alternative candidate was a criminal, Socialist, and in ill health.

Research is ongoing, but TURD appears to correlate closely with the following environmental and behavioral factors:

Willing to accept fabricated information as fact

Not interested in individual research or fact-checking.

Identifies as an Actor or Artist

Exposure to a Liberal Arts. college professor

Works for the Federal, State or Local government

Living in a densely populated metropolitan area

Massive student debt

Spotty or non-existent work history

Individuals with TURD are very resistant to treatment, and dangerous in large groups. Any possibility of treatment requires that they be separated from their hive-mind support apparatus; they cannot begin the process of accepting reality in the presence of encouragement towards delusion and irrationality.

If you have a friend or loved one suffering from TURD, urge them to seek treatment immediately. The left is getting more and more violent and delusional every day!!