Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[ldrews]

It's only true of mainstream media from a right-wing pov. A less simplistic answer is that newsprint slant left or right, but in cable news reporting there are so many hours in a day to fill that most of the content is opinion - and that does display bias.

 

It's disturbingly funny to me to watch these programs try to offer balance by inviting guests from both points of view instead of determining and presenting facts.

 

Any more I am not sure they would recognize a fact if they met one.

[rmnka447]

There has never been a perfect American president and Obama was no exception; however, to classify as a reluctance strong military action just because he adopted a model of fighting terrorism closer to the Rand suggestions is silly right-wing bias-speak.

 

The roots of Isis and al-queda came years before Obama was out of graduate school. Blaming a single person for events out of his control smacks of something smelly. It sounds as if your argument is just: at least he is not Obama.

You forgot that when asked about his plan for fighting ISIS, President Obama grudgingly admitted he had no plan. Of course, he promised to put one together and then never really did. A year later, he still didn't have a plan except to say "no boots on the ground". I recall a point in his last year or two of his presidency when President Obama claimed that ISIS was contained in an interview. That occurred no more than a few days after the Joint Chiefs of Staff testified under oath to Congress that ISIS wasn't contained. Sorry, but I didn't buy the smoke President Obama was blowing.

 

If ISIS was to be defeated with "no boots on the ground", then the fight would have to be carried out by a coalition of regional forces opposed to ISIS. President Obama said as much, but never provided the leadership to get our allies to act and marshal those forces against ISIS. So he had a chance to control events but choose not to, so he is fully culpable for what happened. The pity is that by essentially ignoring ISIS, he let it metastasize into a world wide organization that is going to be much more of a problem and ultimately cost more lives in battling and in terrorist attacks.

 

At least you're perceptive in figuring out that part of my position on Trump is "at least he's not Obama".

 

When you chose to ridicule President Trump's trip to Saudi Arabia, you apparently missed that the President was doing exactly what Obama didn't do -- seeking to get our regional allies to act and marshal their resources against ISIS and Al-Qaeda. In doing so, he also sought to reassure them that America had their back. That was backed up by his recent actions against Syria and against ISIS in Afghanistan. Those actions showed he wasn't just talk, but would act when the situation warranted. So "at least he's not Obama" in this case is a very positive development.

[Winstonm]

You forgot that when asked about his plan for fighting ISIS, President Obama grudgingly admitted he had no plan. Of course, he promised to put one together and then never really did. A year later, he still didn't have a plan except to say "no boots on the ground". I recall a point in his last year or two of his presidency when President Obama claimed that ISIS was contained in an interview. That occurred no more than a few days after the Joint Chiefs of Staff testified under oath to Congress that ISIS wasn't contained. Sorry, but I didn't buy the smoke President Obama was blowing.

 

If ISIS was to be defeated with "no boots on the ground", then the fight would have to be carried out by a coalition of regional forces opposed to ISIS. President Obama said as much, but never provided the leadership to get our allies to act and marshal those forces against ISIS. So he had a chance to control events but choose not to, so he is fully culpable for what happened. The pity is that by essentially ignoring ISIS, he let it metastasize into a world wide organization that is going to be much more of a problem and ultimately cost more lives in battling and in terrorist attacks.

 

At least you're perceptive in figuring out that part of my position on Trump is "at least he's not Obama".

 

When you chose to ridicule President Trump's trip to Saudi Arabia, you apparently missed that the President was doing exactly what Obama didn't do -- seeking to get our regional allies to act and marshal their resources against ISIS and Al-Qaeda. In doing so, he also sought to reassure them that America had their back. That was backed up by his recent actions against Syria and against ISIS in Afghanistan. Those actions showed he wasn't just talk, but would act when the situation warranted. So "at least he's not Obama" in this case is a very positive development.

 

Are you totally bonkers? What group do you think is driving Isis out of Mosul?

[RedSpawn]

Any more I am not sure they would recognize a fact if they met one.

Agreed.

 

http://www.americanpressinstitute.org/journalism-essentials/what-is-journalism/elements-journalism/

 

Review this link and tell me if you honestly think today's journalism in the U.S. contains the enumerated essentials.

[RedSpawn]

There has never been a perfect American president and Obama was no exception; however, to classify as a reluctance strong military action just because he adopted a model of fighting terrorism closer to the Rand suggestions is silly right-wing bias-speak.

 

The roots of Isis and al-queda came years before Obama was out of graduate school. Blaming a single person for events out of his control smacks of something smelly. It sounds as if your argument is just: at least he is not Obama.

In all fairness, there is a bit of right wing bias in the original post, but we have to be intellectually honest about where President Obama fell short diplomatically. Obama's shifting "red line" ultimatum to Syria was a foreign policy debacle and made the U.S. look like an international weakling and waffler.

 

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/obama-syria-foreign-policy-red-line-revisited-214059

 

The "red-line" ultimatum to Syria was directly within Obama's span of control and was a diplomatic disaster from an optics standpoint. A world leader should not be in the business of threatening military intervention when he lacks the political currency at home or abroad to deliver on said threat. Those chickens may come home to roost. And they did.

 

The way President Obama handled the Assad regime and the subsequent shifting of the red line for convenience undermined our international relations credibility.

 

Failure to enforce the red line emboldened Russia to feel that there weren't any substantial consequences if it were to annex Crimea later. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2014/03/17/with-the-annexation-of-crimea-putin-is-testing-us-again-will-the-us-rise-to-the-challenge/#462506222ae .

[barmar]

There's no doubt President Trump has done enough to warrant plenty of negative coverage, but when the reporting reaches the point where it's virtually all negative you have to seriously question its objectivity.

 

On the lighter side, I liked the quip by Gov. Mike Huckabee during the campaign. He said, "If Donald Trump was out in a boat, got out, and walked on water, the New York Times would report 'Donald Trump can't swim'." Cute remark, but illustrative that one's prejudices can color one's perspective.

Cute, but can you point to some actual positive things Trump has done where they reported it negatively or avoided talking about it?

 

I'll probably regret asking that, because I think the answers you'll give will be things that we can't actually agree are positives. For instance, if you're a Trump supporter, you probably think the travel ban was a good thing and he's been treated unfairly about it by both the courts that overturned it and the media reporting on it. Or maybe you'll say they should at least give him credit for trying something.

[Winstonm]

I acknowledge mistakes were made by Obama but not necessarily the same mistakes right wing proponents claim - military force has historically been the worst choice for defeating terrorist groups, for example.

 

For those who are quick to want military action I suggest two reads: First, this article from Rand Corporation that researched the effectiveness of different methods to counter terrorism, and The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism by Andrew Bacevich, retired U.S. Army Major and a Republican.

 

I understand the emotion of wanting quick and decisive action to eradicate the threat of Isis, but the reality of their defeat is anything but quick and decisive, so we would be utilizing the worst response possible for our long-term goals. This is what Obama knew, and it took tremendous courage for him to refuse the quick, easy direct military answer that would not have produced results but would have given him a bump in the polls.

 

I can't imagine Donald Trump exercising that kind of integrity.

[Winstonm]

After Donald Trump’s three-day Twitter rampage over the London attack, as well as his claim that a robbery in the Philippines was a terrorist attack, the AP leads a fact-check with a brutally blunt assessment:

 

President Donald Trump can’t be counted on to give accurate information to Americans when violent acts are unfolding abroad.

 

This is a petty, little man who has set a record for making himself irrelevant.

[RedSpawn]

I acknowledge mistakes were made by Obama but not necessarily the same mistakes right wing proponents claim - military force has historically been the worst choice for defeating terrorist groups, for example.

 

For those who are quick to want military action I suggest two reads: First, this article from Rand Corporation that researched the effectiveness of different methods to counter terrorism, and The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism by Andrew Bacevich, retired U.S. Army Major and a Republican.

 

I understand the emotion of wanting quick and decisive action to eradicate the threat of Isis, but the reality of their defeat is anything but quick and decisive, so we would be utilizing the worst response possible for our long-term goals. This is what Obama knew, and it took tremendous courage for him to refuse the quick, easy direct military answer that would not have produced results but would have given him a bump in the polls.

 

I can't imagine Donald Trump exercising that kind of integrity.

 

Agreed.

 

This war theatre is never easy. And quite frankly, I find Trump's impulsiveness a liability when dealing with enemies of the state.

 

I know this undermines credibility greatly, but read this and tell me if it sounds anything like the Trump we have all grown to know and love. :D

 

Donald Trump takes action, to draw attention on himself, and to make his actions and what he has in mind visible to everyone. Sometimes, without giving a single thought to, and to the detriment of, a richer inner life and a deeper and wiser reflection. Action and communication are inevitable in his opinion, and he tends to think that the only thing that matters is what is seen!

 

This is not always true, and it is up to him to progress through the development of inner qualities such as meditation, solitude and imagination so as to become stronger.

 

Trump belongs to the category of people who never give up when they are facing hurdles. On the contrary, challenges stimulate him. He is particularly exhilarated whenever a new element emerges or when he is dealing with an unprecedented context.

 

Obviously, the danger is that he may rush headlong against a wall of insurmountable difficulties and act impulsively or thoughtlessly. It is important that he moderate his natural impetuosity as often as possible. He should beware of untimely fits of anger!

 

However, his undeniable frankness prevails and his straightforward and honest character appeals to a good many interlocutors.

I know the "honest character" part is suspect, but I think the remainder is a spot-on description of President Trump.

 

This would explain the crazy ass tweets in the morning and evening. . .he feels a need to communicate to his audience no matter how crass, ridiculous, or ignorant the message. He values the action of connecting to his audience more than the accuracy or thoughtfulness of the message sent.

 

Hmmmmm. This promises to be a very interesting roller coaster ride.

[RedSpawn]

While Trump is a disgrace to both the idea of America, and to the American people we need to leave him in office. Leaving Trump in office until he is ousted in the 2020 election will better serve America. While Trump is an uneducated, narcissist, and bully, the greater danger to America comes from Pence.

 

If Trump is impeached we will get Pence as president and the consequences will be disastrous. If Trump stays in office, being Trump, Democrats will likely take over the House in 2018, and win both the Senate and Presidency in 2020. Pence is the radical, reactionary, Conservative, the Republican Party and Christian Evangelicals really want and will really support.

 

If Pence becomes president you can kiss voting rights, income equity, a higher minimum wage, LGBT rights, Medicare and Medicaid, public schools, SNAP, affordable health care for all, and immigration reform, to mention a few issues, good bye. Pence is an ideologue who is supported by the hardest of the hard right evangelicals. If Pence becomes president America will become a Christian nation and the 1st Amendment will disappear. Let Trump serve out his one term and let him (and the Republican Congress) be hobbled into further legislative inaction by his constant lies and misdeeds. America will truly be worse off if Pence becomes president.

--Frank Levy, Co-Founder and Executive Director at One River Foundation & Reader @ Salon.com

 

What say you?

[Winstonm]

--Frank Levy, Co-Founder and Executive Director at One River Foundation & Reader @ Salon.com

 

What say you?

 

I actually think this is right - but I'm not certain and would listen to arguments both ways. Although Pence or Ryan could push through a conservative agenda, those things can be undone over time. Trump's ill will with the world cannot be so easily undone.

[Zelandakh]

You forgot that when asked about his plan for fighting ISIS, President Obama grudgingly admitted he had no plan. Of course, he promised to put one together and then never really did. A year later, he still didn't have a plan except to say "no boots on the ground".

So I take it you disagree with this article highlighting the (lack of) differences between Obama's plan (yes there was one even if your sources managed to avoid reporting it) and Trump's? Surely the lack of change from a President that promised so much before the election is the biggest compliment to the Obama administration's strategy that Trump could possibly offer.

[ldrews]

So I take it you disagree with this article highlighting the (lack of) differences between Obama's plan (yes there was one even if your sources managed to avoid reporting it) and Trump's? Surely the lack of change from a President that promised so much before the election is the biggest compliment to the Obama administration's strategy that Trump could possibly offer.

 

You are comparing Obama's 8 years to Trump's 5 months?

[RedSpawn]

You are comparing Obama's 8 years to Trump's 5 months?

That is what is killing me softly. Our confirmation bias is so strong toward Trump that we expect to see miraculous changes in government policy and programs in a mere 5 months. Keep in mind that we all know he is a rookie at this public official role, so we need to give him some breathing space to get his bearings right.

 

He doesn't need a Hall pass for his mistakes; those can and should be highlighted immediately. However, we should be cautious of issuing him a full condemnation at this early stage of his Presidency.

[Winstonm]

That is what is killing me softly. Our confirmation bias is so strong toward Trump that we expect to see miraculous changes in government policy and programs in a mere 5 months. Keep in mind that we all know he is a rookie at this public official role, so we need to give him some breathing space to get his bearings right.

 

He doesn't need a Hall pass for his mistakes; those can and should be highlighted immediately. However, we should be cautious of issuing him a full condemnation at this early stage of his Presidency.

 

Early presidency; late life. He has earned all the condemnation he receives.

[ldrews]

Early presidency; late life. He has earned all the condemnation he receives.

 

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

 

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

 

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

[Winstonm]

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

 

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

 

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

 

My view has nothing to do with his politics but with him as a person.

[RedSpawn]

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

 

If you do not agree/like his campaign promises then naturally you do not like or approve of Trump. You would be one of those that, on seeing Trump walk on water, would report that apparently Trump can't swim.

 

Mind you, Trump is not suave, sophisticated, politically correct. He is, in many ways, an adolescent. But damn, he is shaking things up, renegotiating bad and questionable deals, and generally making everyone else get off their position and change. Look at what is happening in Europe and NATO.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/12/03/gop-memo-suggests-trump-reality-check-for-establishment.html

 

Trump may behave like an impetuous adolescent bully, but he is also a long overdue reality check for a deeply entrenched, stubborn political establishment.

 

Click link for additional information.

[cherdano]

Trump appears to be assiduously keeping most of his campaign promises to the extent that he can personally do so. No politician in my memory has been as dedicated to that. The major one he has not kept is putting Clinton in jail.

I agree especially on healthcare. The legislation endorsed by Trump, and the budget released by his budget director, studiously do the exact opposite of what he promised in the campaign. (Cover more people, with more affordable premiums and less co-pays. No cuts to Medicaid.)

[Zelandakh]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/12/03/gop-memo-suggests-trump-reality-check-for-establishment.html

What I saw at this link is a Fox News video pointing out that Trump lies openly and without any thought of retraction for even the most ridiculous claims and an article pointing out that voters do not trust politicians and that the GOP can use this to manipulate the electorate. So I am not quite sure what the point is - everyone here knows that Trump lies more than pretty much any other politician in living memory and that political parties are happy to manipulate people in order to obtain power.

[y66]

You have to give Trump credit for his assiduity on the swamp draining front:

 

Three months after President Trump abruptly fired half of the nation’s 93 United States attorneys, following the resignations of the other half, he has yet to replace a single one.

 

It’s bizarre — and revealing — that a man who called himself the “law and order candidate” during the 2016 campaign and spoke of “lawless chaos” in his address to Congress would permit such a leadership vacuum at federal prosecutors’ offices around the country. United States attorneys are responsible for prosecuting terrorism offenses, serious financial fraud, public corruption, crimes related to gang activity, drug trafficking and all other federal crimes.

From Where Are the United States Attorneys?

[y66]

This is somewhat interesting:

 

Our study suggests that political belief polarization may emerge because of peoples’ conflicting desires, not their conflicting beliefs per se. This is rather troubling, as it implies that even if we were to escape from our political echo chambers, it wouldn’t help much. Short of changing what people want to believe, we must find other ways to unify our perceptions of reality.

From You’re Not Going to Change Your Mind

 

Thread over.

[RedSpawn]

What I saw at this link is a Fox News video pointing out that Trump lies openly and without any thought of retraction for even the most ridiculous claims and an article pointing out that voters do not trust politicians and that the GOP can use this to manipulate the electorate. So I am not quite sure what the point is - everyone here knows that Trump lies more than pretty much any other politician in living memory and that political parties are happy to manipulate people in order to obtain power.

What I saw is larger than that....

 

1) Hey Democrats we know the Democratic National Committee (DNC) loaded the political dice in Hillary's favor and to the detriment of Bernie Sanders. We know the DNC rigged the nomination process to the Presidency.

 

2) Hey Republicans we know your platform is falling apart since the white working poor, the white middle, and white lower-middle class now realize their interests (job creation in the local economy and protection of local jobs by tough enforcement on illegal immigration) are usually sold out to lobbyists and special interests.

 

Also, keep in mind that the brand of Republican fiscal conservatism is dead on arrival courtesy of George W. Bush who ballooned the federal debt by over 100% from $5.5 trillion to $11.0 trillion and left a f%&(ed up economy in the wake of his departure courtesy of the 2008 housing bubble crash. So enter the Tea Party movement which wants smaller government and a reduction in the federal debt levels.

 

The main problem is the political elite on both sides think their electorate is a bunch of know-nothings and the electorate KNOWS that the political elite are a bunch of do-nothings!

 

So enter Trump the mercurial, anti-establishment candidate whose frankness though crass, intolerant and politically incorrect is a breath of fresh air in a field of dog whistlers, liars and do-nothings. You never have to wonder what Trump is thinking. He shares infamous tweets that no other career politician dare make. Trump doesn't stick to script and creates his own reality which angers those who feel it is their job to control the narrative.

 

Trump doesn't play nice and turned the political game of Presidential politics on its head. He proved all of his naysayers wrong about how retail politics work at the national level. He graduated from carnival barker and snake oil salesman Trump to President Trump.

 

Now the political elite want the fruits of his labor (position and power) without doing all of the leg work (campaigning and winning the election). So enter the road to impeachment story line.....

 

Trump is a wild card. Game masters who are used to controlling the political game do not like surprises. And they definitely don't like wild cards disturbing the balance of power in politics.

[PassedOut]

Trump gets great Intel every day: Top-Secret NSA Report Details Russian Hacking Effort Days Before 2016 Election

 

Russian military intelligence executed a cyberattack on at least one U.S. voting software supplier and sent spear-phishing emails to more than 100 local election officials just days before last Novembers presidential election, according to a highly classified intelligence report obtained by The Intercept.

 

The top-secret National Security Agency document, which was provided anonymously to The Intercept and independently authenticated, analyzes intelligence very recently acquired by the agency about a months-long Russian intelligence cyber effort against elements of the U.S. election and voting infrastructure. The report, dated May 5, 2017, is the most detailed U.S. government account of Russian interference in the election that has yet come to light.

It's so disastrous for people to learn that secret that the leaker has been identified and arrested: Intelligence Contractor Is Charged in First Leak Case Under Trump

 

The Justice Department announced the case against the contractor, Reality Leigh Winner, 25, about an hour after the national-security news outlet The Intercept published the apparent document, a May 5 intelligence report from the National Security Agency.

 

The report described two cyberattacks by Russias military intelligence unit, the G.R.U. one in August against a company that sells voter registration-related software and another, a few days before the election, against 122 local election officials. The Intercept said the N.S.A. report had been submitted anonymously. But shortly after its article was published, the Justice Department said that the F.B.I. had arrested Ms. Winner at her house in Augusta, Ga., on Saturday. It also said she had confessed to an agent that she had printed out a May 5 intelligence file and mailed it to an online news outlet.

Looks like the hacker wasn't some guy in a New Jersey bedroom on his laptop after all. What a surprise!

 

And it seems that the source was not "made up" either--you can't put a "made up" source in jail...

[Winstonm]

What I saw is larger than that....

 

1) Hey Democrats we know the Democratic National Committee (DNC) loaded the political dice in Hillary's favor and to the detriment of Bernie Sanders. We know the DNC rigged the nomination process to the Presidency.

 

2) Hey Republicans we know your platform is falling apart since the white working poor, the white middle, and white lower-middle class now realize their interests (job creation in the local economy and protection of local jobs by tough enforcement on illegal immigration) are usually sold out to lobbyists and special interests.

 

Also, keep in mind that the brand of Republican fiscal conservatism is dead on arrival courtesy of George W. Bush who ballooned the federal debt by over 100% from $5.5 trillion to $11.0 trillion and left a f%&(ed up economy in the wake of his departure courtesy of the 2008 housing bubble crash. So enter the Tea Party movement which wants smaller government and a reduction in the federal debt levels.

 

The main problem is the political elite on both sides think their electorate is a bunch of know-nothings and the electorate KNOWS that the political elite are a bunch of do-nothings!

 

So enter Trump the mercurial, anti-establishment candidate whose frankness though crass, intolerant and politically incorrect is a breath of fresh air in a field of dog whistlers, liars and do-nothings. You never have to wonder what Trump is thinking. He shares infamous tweets that no other career politician dare make. Trump doesn't stick to script and creates his own reality which angers those who feel it is their job to control the narrative.

 

Trump doesn't play nice and turned the political game of Presidential politics on its head. He proved all of his naysayers wrong about how retail politics work at the national level. He graduated from carnival barker and snake oil salesman Trump to President Trump.

 

Now the political elite want the fruits of his labor (position and power) without doing all of the leg work (campaigning and winning the election). So enter the road to impeachment story line.....

 

Trump is a wild card. Game masters who are used to controlling the political game do not like surprises. And they definitely don't like wild cards disturbing the balance of power in politics.

 

I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions.

 

As I see it, the problems we are having is that as a nation we have confused politics with religion and are involved in a fight to move the country away from secular government toward Christian theocracy. A big part of this problem stems from the inclusion of social-conservative principles into political platforms, making faith-based systems dependent upon voting for the party that best supports that faith.

 

This leads to extremism. The Tea Party and their holier-than-thou cause as they proclaim My way is the way, the truth, and the light, and he who is not with me is against me is a prime example of this extremism .

 

Donald Trump is just the latest iteration of a televangelist candidate who spews lies to the faithful in order to capitalize on their emotions. This is not the first time in the U.S. that populist movements have arisen. When the middle to lower classes have endured extreme hardships, populism has taken root. It is not the first time the U.S. electorate made a massive mistake in the choice of president.

 

Donald Trump is a human piece of slime who conned his way to the top office to gratify his own ego. He has nothing to offer and is totally incapable of handling the demands of the office he now holds, nor has he anything to offer from the bully pulpit but more faith-based hate speech that the world at large refuses to hear. The affect of this is to destabilize the basis for inter-country cooperation.

 

This is the price we pay when we allow religion to slowly creep into our government institutions. This is what Christian theocracy looks like. It is ugly and hate-filled and unforgiving.