Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[hrothgar]

I was not the one that said the EOs do not have an impact, that was Winstonm. I was just using his position to verify that since he feels they have no impact, that then he has no objection to them.

 

Damn you're stupid. Let's try this again at an even more basic level.

 

Winston stated that "All else is simply his personal wish list and has no real effect on policy."

 

You then created a framing in which the only impact that an EO can have is on policy.

 

This is clearly not true.

[ldrews]

Damn you're stupid. Let's try this again at an even more basic level.

 

Winston stated that "All else is simply his personal wish list and has no real effect on policy."

 

You then created a framing in which the only impact that an EO can have is on policy.

 

This is clearly not true.

 

Please spell it out for me. What are the effects of EOs other than on policy?

[hrothgar]

Please spell it out for me. What are the effects of EOs other than on policy?

 

How well do you think that Trump's Muslim ban is playing in the rest of the world?

 

(And do you believe that this will have no impact on the how America is perceived)

[ldrews]

How well do you think that Trump's Muslim ban is playing in the rest of the world?

 

(And do you believe that this will have no impact on the how America is perceived)

 

Interesting that you ask that. If I remember correctly, the 7 countries on the list of countries on Obama/Trump's list comprise 14% of Muslim majority countries of the world, and only 12% of those countries population. My understanding is that list was comprised of countries with a history of exporting terrorism and also offered no or little ability to vet their citizens. Obviously they are not the only countries that I would put on that list, but then I wasn't asked.

 

It seems to me to be quite a stretch to call that list a "Muslim" ban given the facts, even if Trump, and many others in the US, harbor a fear of Muslims. Of course, their religious doctrine explicitly calls for the killing of non-Muslims. But I'm sure we shouldn't take them seriously.

 

I have read (sorry I have no citations) that the populace of most western civilization countries now oppose muslim/refugee immigrations. Certainly I have not heard of China, Russia, Israel, Mexico, etc., offering to accept a significant numbers of such people. Only the US and the European Union seem to be stupid enough to do so. In Europe every country which has admitted a significant number of such people seem to be experiencing a great deal of social upset.

 

So, how is the ban playing in the rest of the world. Depends on whether you ask the governments or the people.

 

Will this have an impact on the perception of America. Certainly, but whether to the good or bad remains to be seen.

[mike777]

Correction

 

In a previous post I suggested that Trump continue to talk tough on immigration/border patrol to keep his base happy.

 

I think he would be far more successful with his policy if he talked less, much less in public. Those who strongly support his policy will get bored/fatigued and stop listening, those who actively seek him to fail as President will just attack whatever he says.

 

Have Trump limit his public speeches, talks to one a month, more people may pay attention and be open to listen. Perhaps, just perhaps he might then be more careful with his choice of words and facts.

[hrothgar]

 

I have read (sorry I have no citations) that the populace of most western civilization countries now oppose muslim/refugee immigrations. Certainly I have not heard of China, Russia, Israel, Mexico, etc., offering to accept a significant numbers of such people. Only the US and the European Union seem to be stupid enough to do so. In Europe every country which has admitted a significant number of such people seem to be experiencing a great deal of social upset.

 

So, how is the ban playing in the rest of the world. Depends on whether you ask the governments or the people.

 

Will this have an impact on the perception of America. Certainly, but whether to the good or bad remains to be seen.

 

I find it telling that you don't consider the impact within Muslim countries themselves...

[ldrews]

I find it telling that you don't consider the impact within Muslim countries themselves...

 

Please, enlighten me. What would be the impact within Muslim countries themselves?

[hrothgar]

Please, enlighten me. What would be the impact within Muslim countries themselves?

 

I'm sorry, you are too stupid to waste time conversing with...

 

You can't follow a basic discussion and have blind spots the size of an elephant.

[ldrews]

I'm sorry, you are too stupid to waste time conversing with...

 

You can't follow a basic discussion and have blind spots the size of an elephant.

 

OK, you don't know. Why didn't you just say so? I could tell because you immediately reached for insults. The refuge of the ignorant.

[hrothgar]

OK, you don't know. Why didn't you just say so? I could tell because you immediately reached for insults. The refuge of the ignorant.

 

No, ***** for brains, it is merely me showing how little respect I have for you...

 

For the record, I have an undergraduate degree in Middle Eastern history from one of the top schools in the US.

I have travelled extensively in Turkey, Morocco, and - most recently - spent a couple weeks in Iran.

The issue is not that I am ignorant, but rather, its just not worth the time to try to have a discussion with you.

 

You don't make any kind of valuable contribution or provide any kind of intellectual stimulation.

You just recite right wing talking points that you barely seem to understand.

[ldrews]

No, ***** for brains, it is merely me showing how little respect I have for you...

 

For the record, I have an undergraduate degree in Middle Eastern history from one of the top schools in the US.

I have travelled extensively in Turkey, Morocco, and - most recently - spent a couple weeks in Iran.

The issue is not that I am ignorant, but rather, its just not worth the time to try to have a discussion with you.

 

You don't make any kind of valuable contribution or provide any kind of intellectual stimulation.

You just recite right wing talking points that you barely seem to understand.

 

Well, if you have the education and experience that you claim, then the only reason not to respond is that either there won't be a negative impact in the Muslim countries, or the impact doesn't fit your narrative. I think you are disinginous and a fraud. But what do I know?

 

By the way, what right wing talking points am I reciting? I have simply presented a list of the things that I, an independent, would like to see accomplished in the U.S. Do you have an objection to that?

[Vampyr]

How would you suggest the US cope with terrorism?

 

Keeping out Welsh teachers on a school trip is certainly a start...

[ldrews]

Keeping out Welsh teachers on a school trip is certainly a start...

 

You must think this is all a joke! How about a serious suggestion, not just some flip off?

[Winstonm]

I am sorry, I did not realize you have limited reading/comprehension. If you actually read the EOa you will find several that address reduced regulation (thereby improving small business' ability to start or expand), renegotiating trade agreements (thereby retaining/increasing US jobs), and immigration/border control.

 

Try reading them again and ask if you have questions.

 

You don't want dialogue. You don't even seem to understand the an EO only directs the actions of the executive branch and that the President has not authority to implement his wish list outside of the narrow scope. So I am through talking with you. Thanks, anyway.

[ldrews]

You don't want dialogue. I am done with you.

 

I disagree. I offered specifics, you come back with evasive questions. I ask for specifics, you totally avoid them. You want to dialog? Tell me what you think, don't just snipe at my offerings. Give me some substance to work with. Otherwise, yes, retreat into an attitude of condescending superiority. I'm sure that will be effective in persuading us independents.

[Cyberyeti]

Keeping out Welsh teachers on a school trip is certainly a start...

 

TBF there were plenty of reports of this sort of thing before Trump hit the White house

[hrothgar]

Well, if you have the education and experience that you claim, then the only reason not to respond is that either there won't be a negative impact in the Muslim countries, or the impact doesn't fit your narrative. I think you are disinginous and a fraud. But what do I know?

 

The fact that you can't construct any other possible explanation is a perfect example why its not worth engaging with you on substantive issues.

I don't have a responsibility to knock down whatever stupid little straw man you happen to construct and, quite honestly, its just not that interesting for me.

 

I understand the position that you're in.

 

You're old.

You have no family or friends.

You're living in a foreign country where no one particularly likes you.

 

So you go and act like an asshole on a internet discussion forum because this is the only way for you to get any attention from another living being.

 

Its understandable, but its also quite regrettable. And I have no interest in being an enabler...

[ldrews]

The fact that you can't construct any other possible explanation is a perfect example why its not worth engaging with you on substantive issues.

I don't have a responsibility to knock down whatever stupid little straw man you happen to construct and, quite honestly, its just not that interesting for me.

 

I understand the position that you're in.

 

You're old.

You have no family or friends.

You're living in a foreign country where no one particularly likes you.

 

So you go and act like an asshole on a internet discussion forum because this is the only way for you to get any attention from another living being.

 

Its understandable, but its also quite regrettable. And I have no interest in being an enabler...

 

Ah yes. The resort to insult and character assassination rather than engage in meaningful conversation. Typical juvenile response. Tell me, do you still live in your parent's basement? Have you matured enough to actually hold down a job? Do you have any real world experience?

[hrothgar]

Tell me, do you still live in your parent's basement? Have you matured enough to actually hold down a job? Do you have any real world experience?

 

Just because I live at home with my folks and haven't found the right job yet doesn't mean squat.

[ldrews]

Just because I live at home with my folks and haven't found the right job yet doesn't mean squat.

 

I envy you. You have a whole lifetime of adventures to look forward to. I am coming to the end of my life.

 

But, please, don't confuse enthusiasm and passion with experience. The world probably doesn't work the way you think it does. It didn't for me when I was your age.

 

There is an old saying: If you are not a socialist/liberal when you are 20, you don't have a heart. If you are still a socialist/liberal when you are 40, you don't have a brain.

 

In any case, good luck with your job search and your life!

[Zelandakh]

I envy you.

You really do believe everything you read regardless of how ridiculous it sounds, don't you?! You are the perfect Trump fanboi! And I was wrong before - you are on the right side of the fence!

[ldrews]

You really do believe everything you read regardless of how ridiculous it sounds, don't you?! You are the perfect Trump fanboi! And I was wrong before - you are on the right side of the fence!

 

I do assume that an individual communicating with me is telling the truth until I have evidence to the contrary. Am I naive? Probably. But my life seems to go much better this way.

 

I am sorry that you are so cynical.

 

And while I don't consider myself a Trump fanboy, in the recent election it was a no.brainer for me.

[Winstonm]

I disagree. I offered specifics, you come back with evasive questions. I ask for specifics, you totally avoid them. You want to dialog? Tell me what you think, don't just snipe at my offerings. Give me some substance to work with. Otherwise, yes, retreat into an attitude of condescending superiority. I'm sure that will be effective in persuading us independents.

 

O.K., here it is and it is quite simple. It is easy to see how naively dangerous this president is by the people with whom he chose to surround himself: Steve Bannon, the Gorka pair, Steve Miller, General Flynn, etc., and by the his reliance on alternative and unreliable sources of information and conspiracy theorists (Alex Jones, Breitbart, et al) to form his worldview.

 

If you cannot understand from those choices alone how ridiculously and historically bad your vote was then there is really no reason to continue discourse.

[barmar]

So you go and act like an asshole on a internet discussion forum because this is the only way for you to get any attention from another living being.

Richard, you do realize that this is how you're often perceived here? Not because your arguments lack merit, but because of your confrontational tone and frequent use of name-calling. ldrews is a troll, you're taking the bait.

[hrothgar]

Richard, you do realize that this is how you're often perceived here? Not because your arguments lack merit, but because of your confrontational tone and frequent use of name-calling. ldrews is a troll, you're taking the bait.

 

Fair enough.

 

Ciao