Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped?

[Trinidad]

What I want or don't want and what a friend "owes" me are two entirely different things. Are your friendships based on obligations?

No mine are, among others, based on friendliness and mutual respect. Do you think that Trump's BS on Sweden was friendly or respectful towards the Swedes?

 

Do you think it would be friendly and respectful towards the Swedes for Trump to apologize and explain?

Do you think it would be friendly and respectful towards the Swedes for Trump to just ignore his gaffe?

 

Rik

[helene_t]

Are Swedish people and/or politicians and diplomats really so upset about this? It's not even like was saying anything terrible about Sweden. He said some random nonsense which on the face of it referred to Sweden but he might have confused Sweden with Switzerland or Swaziland or whatever. Who takes him seriously anyway?

[kenberg]

I will try to be clear as to how I think things have gone seriously haywire.

 

Trump's comment about "what happened last night in Sweden" is not, by itself, all that serious. I can see why people in Sweden would be offended, but if this were an outlier all could be smoothed over. Unfortunately I see it as one example of a very recurrent pattern.

 

Trump speaks of how all countries look out for their own interests. Of course. Who ever thought that they did not? But if every time a friend speaks he is talking about how from now on he will be watching out for his own interests, I start to think that I had better not enter into any agreement with him that requires trust. There is short term self-interest and long term self-interest. For long term self-interest it is not only important that I can trust him to hold my wallet, also I can trust that he will be there when I need him. And vice-versa.

 

Trump says that he will make America great again. Whatever he means by this, he had better make us very great because with the way we are going at it, we will have no friends, no support, nobody to work with on a basis of trust. I believe this is a most serious error.

[billw55]

Significant reduction in military presence around the world

Renunciation of being the policeman for the world

Significant improvement of opportunities for the middle/working class

Significant improvement in the plight of inner cities

Significant improvement in control of our borders

Significant improvement in our educational system

 

I understand. You have different priorities than I do. That is why we have elections, to determine which priorities will be favored. Trump won.

Honestly, other than border control, I doubt that Trump or his administration give a crap about any of that. You thought you voted for your priorities, but in reality you were sold a bill of goods.

 

Then again, I have been wrong before. Time will tell.

 

 

 

[Al_U_Card]

Are Swedish people and/or politicians and diplomats really so upset about this? It's not even like was saying anything terrible about Sweden. He said some random nonsense which on the face of it referred to Sweden but he might have confused Sweden with Switzerland or Swaziland or whatever. Who takes him seriously anyway?

Are the US citizenry upset when some leader makes a comment about their situation? The counter-point being that Trump has the back-up to do something about it....

Take him seriously while understanding the mentality of the use of power, control and influence from the top of a hierarchy. Trump is used to it and is very blase about his personal implications but very serious about the measure of his "success" to his own set of standards. In business you just have to be right more than you are wrong, based on financial considerations. That leaves a lot of room for error and adjustment.

[WellSpyder]

What I want or don't want and what a friend "owes" me are two entirely different things. Are your friendships based on obligations?

There are two sides to most questions, and I can understand why Trump supporters might get fed up with facing the sheer weight of opinion here and in the media. But when the only way to defend a President who spouts complete nonsense is to start an irrelevant semantic argument about the words others use in reacting to it, then anyone who takes that course of action really doesn't give the impression of being interested in reality.

[Vampyr]

Honestly, other than border control, I doubt that Trump or his administration give a crap about any of that. You thought you voted for your priorities, but in reality you were sold a bill of goods.

 

Then again, I have been wrong before. Time will tell.

 

 

For example:

 

I wish people would stop taking Trump seriously. Like several other candidates, he has adopted the recent trend of using a fake and/or obviously hopeless presidential candidacy as a marketing gig, enabled by a mountain of free publicity from the slobbering media. He can say any stupid thing he wants, because he isn't serious and knows he is just going to drop out later.

[ldrews]

No mine are, among others, based on friendliness and mutual respect. Do you think that Trump's BS on Sweden was friendly or respectful towards the Swedes?

 

Do you think it would be friendly and respectful towards the Swedes for Trump to apologize and explain?

Do you think it would be friendly and respectful towards the Swedes for Trump to just ignore his gaffe?

 

Rik

 

I share your basis for friendship: friendliness and mutual respect. But as a friend you do not "owe" me anything, nor I you.

 

I think if would be friendly and respectful toward the Swedes if Trump explained. I haven't heard anything that would require an apology. Could you explain exactly what Trump said that merits and apology?

[Vampyr]

Comedians are in for lean times. How can you satirise a press club nference or a speech that seems indistinguishable from a parody?

 

I think that Trump is being played by someone. Bannon? Putin? I fear this will not end well.

[ldrews]

There are two sides to most questions, and I can understand why Trump supporters might get fed up with facing the sheer weight of opinion here and in the media. But when the only way to defend a President who spouts complete nonsense is to start an irrelevant semantic argument about the words others use in reacting to it, then anyone who takes that course of action really doesn't give the impression of being interested in reality.

 

I disagree with you. One of the things that ticks me off is the overreaching sense of entitlement and righteousness that the "liberal/left" supporters communicate to me. The use of "owe", "entitled", etc. are unwarranted, incorrect, and offensive to me.

 

But so what?

[Winstonm]

IMO, the simple explanation is that the vast right-wing propaganda mechanism has been incredibly successful in creating an alternative reality bubble where anyone who doesn't believe is an enemy; however, the only way this could have worked is if Neil Postman was right when he wrote that we are "Amusing Ourselves To Death" with the merger of information and news. Living through the Trump campaign, one thing was obvious to me that Trump was dominating the videos shown on all the news channels. In fact, a CBS news executive was reported to have said, "I don't know if he is good for the country but he's good for CBS". Putting on an entertaining show - with short, easily repeated concepts (build a wall, lock her up, etc.) - designed to entertain rather than inform, lead, explain, or dignify.

 

We have elected the WWF "wrestler" who stood in the middle of the ring, holding the mike, and yelling the loudest how he would crush his opponents.

 

The next midterms are stacked in favor of the Republicans, so this cycle will last at least 4 years. Resistance must be for the long haul. I recommend to anyone interested to look on either Facebook or Google and search for their local group named Indivisible, started by congressional aides who wrote a short document on how to legally and effectively fight back. Indivisible is a nationwide grassroots organization aimed at Congressman and Senators, both national and state, to promote a progressive agenda and to push back against Donald Trump's agenda.

[awm]

The world is coming to an end when my opponent wins! God forbid that he wins the election legally!

 

We have a leader who was elected (legally) by a minority of the voting population. According to his job approval numbers, a majority of the country does not think he is doing well (and it has gotten worse since his inauguration). Now one of his supporters is suggesting we should change the Constitution, using a method which favors smaller and more conservative states (thus again allowing a minority of the country to "outvote" the majority and basically disenfranchising people who live in the large coastal cities).

 

I stand by my previous pictorial comment. Just because the Constitution (a document written over two centuries ago when few democracies existed) allows something does not make it democratic, or right. And in many ways the Republicans are perverting the overarching goals of equality and justice by their attempts to disenfranchise large fractions of Americans.

[WellSpyder]

I disagree with you. One of the things that ticks me off is the overreaching sense of entitlement and righteousness that the "liberal/left" supporters communicate to me. The use of "owe", "entitled", etc. are unwarranted, incorrect, and offensive to me.

 

But so what?

OK, you feel that it is wrong to feel "entitled" to an explanation.

 

Do you have any worries about the president spouting absolute nonsense in the first place, or do you think that is entirely for him to worry about and it is not for us lesser mortals to question the ways and means of the great and the good?

[Vampyr]

https://cfmedia.deadline.com/2017/02/screen-shot-2017-02-19-at-3-41-43-pm.png

[Vampyr]

Note: I do not know who to attribute that to.

[Trinidad]

Are Swedish people and/or politicians and diplomats really so upset about this? It's not even like was saying anything terrible about Sweden. He said some random nonsense which on the face of it referred to Sweden but he might have confused Sweden with Switzerland or Swaziland or whatever. Who takes him seriously anyway?

Most that I know are laughing. But most also want the implication that Sweden is seriously suffering from terrorist attacks publicly rectified. Americans thinking that Sweden is unsafe, is unlikely to be good for Swedish business.

 

Well, the good thing in this deal is that now most American will be reminded that Sweden is the capital of Denmark (or something like that).

 

Rik

[ldrews]

We have a leader who was elected (legally) by a minority of the voting population. According to his job approval numbers, a majority of the country does not think he is doing well (and it has gotten worse since his inauguration). Now one of his supporters is suggesting we should change the Constitution, using a method which favors smaller and more conservative states (thus again allowing a minority of the country to "outvote" the majority and basically disenfranchising people who live in the large coastal cities).

 

I stand by my previous pictorial comment. Just because the Constitution (a document written over two centuries ago when few democracies existed) allows something does not make it democratic, or right. And in many ways the Republicans are perverting the overarching goals of equality and justice by their attempts to disenfranchise large fractions of Americans.

 

So you are in support of a Constitutional Convention to bring the Constitution up to date?

[ldrews]

OK, you feel that it is wrong to feel "entitled" to an explanation.

 

Do you have any worries about the president spouting absolute nonsense in the first place, or do you think that is entirely for him to worry about and it is not for us lesser mortals to question the ways and means of the great and the good?

 

Actually his nonsense worries me. But I reserve judgment for his actions over a reasonable period of time. In my opinion he has put foxes in charge of the hen houses (cabinet nominees). Since I think the government needs shaking up and change of direction I applaud.

[Zelandakh]

So you are in support of a Constitutional Convention to bring the Constitution up to date?

How can you possibly take what Adam wrote and make something completely different from it? For that matter, how can you take what Trump says and take that to mean something completely different as well? Is English not your native language? Perhaps you are on the wrong side of "The Fence".

[Winstonm]

Actually his nonsense worries me. But I reserve judgment for his actions over a reasonable period of time. In my opinion he has put foxes in charge of the hen houses (cabinet nominees). Since I think the government needs shaking up and change of direction I applaud.

 

 

Let's take Trumps actions and see if it fits your thinking about shakeups.

 

The greatest threat to the U.S. comes non-white, non-Christian immigrants and refugees.

The second greatest threat to the U.S. comes from non-white Mexicans.

 

The greatest need of the U.S. is for the rich to have more money through tax cuts and regulation abandonment.

The second greatest need of the U.S. is to reduce spending by not allowing federal funds to be used to grant a more equal access to healthcare.

The third greatest need of the U.S. is tariffs and better trade deals.

The fourth greatest need of the U.S, is to redistribute the savings from healthcare to increased military spending.

 

These are the actions and proposals that have come from the Trump camp thus far. I really don't see anything here that matches your list unless you meant to place anarchy at the top and forgot.

[ldrews]

Let's take Trumps actions and see if it fits your thinking about shakeups.

 

The greatest threat to the U.S. comes non-white, non-Christian immigrants and refugees.

The second greatest threat to the U.S. comes from non-white Mexicans.

 

The greatest need of the U.S. is for the rich to have more money through tax cuts and regulation abandonment.

The second greatest need of the U.S. is to reduce spending by not allowing federal funds to be used to grant a more equal access to healthcare.

The third greatest need of the U.S. is tariffs and better trade deals.

The fourth greatest need of the U.S, is to redistribute the savings from healthcare to increased military spending.

 

These are the actions and proposals that have come from the Trump camp thus far. I really don't see anything here that matches your list unless you meant to place anarchy at the top and forgot.

 

It is amazing how we have different perspectives.

 

The greatest threat is nuclear war with a provoked Russia.

We mitigate this threat by dialing down our confrontational approach to Russia, try to negotiate with them rather than fight them.

 

The 2nd greatest threat is a terrorist attack with nuclear or biological weapons

We mitigate this threat by regaining control of our borders and immigration process, prohibiting/limiting immigration from countries that have a history of exporting terrorism or for which we cannot reliably vet the applicants.

 

The greatest need for the US is to revitalize the working/middle class economics by reducing regulation to allow businesses to more easily start and expand, and to reduce taxes so that working/middle class families retain more of their income.

 

The 2nd greatest need of the US is to restructure healthcare. The current program costs are escalating rapidly, insurance companies are rapidly exiting market, and the individual mandate is a fascist intrusion.

 

The 3rd greatest need of the US is, I agree, better trade deals and protective tariffs to provide incentives for businesses to stay or locate in the US and provide jobs rather than incentivize the export of jobs.

 

What savings from healthcare? Please cite.

 

The 4th greatest need of the US is to reduce military spending by significantly reducing overseas military installations, withdrawing from the Middle East wars, renouncing the role of world policeman,

and focusing on actual national defense. Including modernizing where needed.

 

The 5th greatest need is to take the savings from military reduction and fix the US infrastructure, temporarily providing a significant number of jobs for unemployed/underemployed workers.

 

I believe that many of these items were addressed by Trump during his campaign, and I expect and look forward to actual progress in each of them.

[ldrews]

How can you possibly take what Adam wrote and make something completely different from it? For that matter, how can you take what Trump says and take that to mean something completely different as well? Is English not your native language? Perhaps you are on the wrong side of "The Fence".

 

It seems that when someone like I disagree with you, you immediately try to insult. You might like to try discussion.

 

Adam assumes that the US is a democracy. As many have pointed out, it isn't. The US is a constitutional republic, a confederation of 50 states. The states, via the electoral system, elect the president. The states voted 30/20 for Trump as reflected in the 306 electoral votes that Trump received. Popular vote does not matter federally, only on a state by state basis.

 

Adam made the comment that the Constitution is a 200 year old document, and therefore perhaps not relevant to modern times. So I was merely asking Adam if he supported the Constitutional Convention approach to modernizing the Constitution. Do you have a problem with that?

[Winstonm]

It is amazing how we have different perspectives.

 

The greatest threat is nuclear war with a provoked Russia.

We mitigate this threat by dialing down our confrontational approach to Russia, try to negotiate with them rather than fight them.

 

The 2nd greatest threat is a terrorist attack with nuclear or biological weapons

We mitigate this threat by regaining control of our borders and immigration process, prohibiting/limiting immigration from countries that have a history of exporting terrorism or for which we cannot reliably vet the applicants.

 

The greatest need for the US is to revitalize the working/middle class economics by reducing regulation to allow businesses to more easily start and expand, and to reduce taxes so that working/middle class families retain more of their income.

 

The 2nd greatest need of the US is to restructure healthcare. The current program costs are escalating rapidly, insurance companies are rapidly exiting market, and the individual mandate is a fascist intrusion.

 

The 3rd greatest need of the US is, I agree, better trade deals and protective tariffs to provide incentives for businesses to stay or locate in the US and provide jobs rather than incentivize the export of jobs.

 

What savings from healthcare? Please cite.

 

The 4th greatest need of the US is to reduce military spending by significantly reducing overseas military installations, withdrawing from the Middle East wars, renouncing the role of world policeman,

and focusing on actual national defense. Including modernizing where needed.

 

The 5th greatest need is to take the savings from military reduction and fix the US infrastructure, temporarily providing a significant number of jobs for unemployed/underemployed workers.

 

I believe that many of these items were addressed by Trump during his campaign, and I expect and look forward to actual progress in each of them.

 

Note I didn't ask what you thought were the biggest threats - I only posted the biggest threats Trump's actions thus far prioritized. Trump seems to be totally unconcerned about a threat from Russia.

 

I don't see how or why you believe Trump addressed anything in his campaign other than self-aggrandizement. Perhaps you simply transferred your own views to someone who appeared different but doesn't really share your views and values?

[awm]

There's one US party (the Democrats) who consistently want more people to vote and for the decision of the majority to be respected. The other party (the Republicans) consistently tries to to make it harder for people to vote, and to take advantage of rules which allow them to preserve power despite the majority of voters going the other way (take a look at what's happened in North Carolina the past few years for very blatant examples of this, or the 2012 popular vote for house of representatives for a national-level example).

 

Do I think we should fix this? It would be nice. Do I think a Constitutional Convention called by the party which prefers to ignore the will of the people, run according to a system where voters in Wyoming count 100x more than voters in California, will be a good mechanism to fix this? Absolutely not. More likely they will come up with more ways to make sure the Republicans retain power regardless of how big a majority of citizens would prefer the opposite.

[Al_U_Card]

IMO, the simple explanation is that the vast right-wing propaganda mechanism has been incredibly successful in creating an alternative reality bubble where anyone who doesn't believe is an enemy;

Now there's a CT almost as effective as the climate anti-science denialist machine (unless they are one and the same?).

Seriously? How about the "mechanism" that leads committed, PC pedants to deny the right of almost half of the voting public to express their political views?

HTG.